Ok....but I still don't agree with you, because I think you are personally interpreting the text that way. Question: Are all antique Roman's stoics?
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Ok....but I still don't agree with you, because I think you are personally interpreting the text that way. Question: Are all antique Roman's stoics?
Good question, Janine. I was about to ask the same one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Sorry, Virgil, but I don't buy it. There is nothing about that speech that even implies in any way that Horatio is philosophically a Stoic.
Certainly there are references to Julius Caesar in Hamlet - not surprising since it was the play written and performed immediately before Hamlet came to the Globe stage (in fact Julius Caesar was the first play performed at the Globe after it was built by Burbage and the Chamberlain's Men) and Shakespeare's audiences loved references to familiar plays, politics and local affairs - but that in no way proves Horatio a Stoic or compares him to Brutus. Falling on one's sword was an accepted method of honorable death in ancient Roman tradition and is not by any means limited to Stoics. And Brutus was hardly the only "antique Roman" who followed that tradition, even in Shakespeare's plays - Cassius did the same, as did Marc Antony in the later Antony and Cleopatra, and most certainly neither of those were even close to being Stoics.
Shakespeare drew much of the material for his plays from his own experiences as well was from his readings. Remember, in Elizabethan England Latin was the primary language of learning in Grammar School. And much of the lessons taught were through a study of the Latin classics including Roman histories (see the schoolmaster scenes in The Merry Wives of Windsor).
In his characterization, Horatio, as an educated, scholarly man much like Shakespeare, would have been totally familiar with Roman history - as is clear from the very beginning of the play when he expounds to Marcellus and Bernardo on the supernatural events of the night before Caesar was killed. I would not be surprised if he admired Brutus (although he does not say so), but that doesn't make him a Stoic. For all we know he admired Caesar (he does refer to him as "the mightiest Julius") and despised Brutus for his betrayal. As with everything else, nothing is clear about Horatio.
However, it is not surprising at all that Horatio respected and admired those ancient Romans with their clear codes of ethics and honor (especially in the moral chaos of this world he was living in), and was tempted to emulate them and follow his beloved friend and Prince to the world beyond. That in no way implies that he follows any one particular philosophy (and there were many in ancient Rome). The meaning of the lines are clear as stated:
I am more an antique Roman than a Dane.
We don't know whether he is a Dane at all, and this statement neither denies it nor affirms it - as with everything else about Horatio, it is ambiguous. But the one thing that is not ambiguous is that he was knowledgeable about and admired the Romans and, at that moment, really wished that he could be one - not a Stoic, a Roman.
Arlene, some really good points here. I tend to think that your statement, Virgil, was generalising. It is like the crazy quizzes you see online if all X's are B's, and some B's are G's, then all G's are X's - true/false? Well you get the idea.:idea: All Romans are not Stoics - how could they be? I did not read Shakespeare's "Julius Caesar", but I know the story.
Horatio is a real person with real feelings throughout the play. To my sensibilities, he does not appear to be stoic in his behavior at all. He does appear to be "layed back" and much different in temperment than Hamlet, much more polite and quieter. It is strange but I actually think that Horatio is the most rounded and complete person in the play. He can "keep his head when all around are losing theirs"...but this hardly makes him a stoic.
Arlene brings up the best point about the two school-mates having studied Roman History in University together. Interesting that she pointed out Horatios reference to Caesar when he encountered the ghost. Even when Horatio delivers those last lines to Hamlet, I am sure Hamlet can relate to his intention through the reference; Horatio speaks with passion in his voice and sadness for his lost friend.
Actually, Janine, what I said is that Horatio likely studied Latin and Roman history (as Shakespeare did - and no doubt Hamlet as well) in GRAMMAR SCHOOL, when he was just a boy (aged 6-13). Latin was definitely the language of learning in England and other countries in Europe. Grammar school in those days taught basic reading and writing from a hornbook using the abc's and the Lord's Prayer. But beyond that it was considered relatively unimportant. Although Shakespeare likely had some lessons in English, Latin composition and the study of Latin authors like Seneca, Cicero, Ovid, Virgil, and Horace would have been the focus of his literary training. All lessons were done in Latin, and Latin was the language that was spoken in class.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
It is likely that Shakespeare based Horatio's education and scholarly background on his own early training. However, Horatio, unlike Shakespeare, had the opportunity to go to University, where his scholarly inclinations were developed and enhanced. Thus his reputation for reason and "scientific" knowledge and logic.
I read your post quickly before. Sorry about that. I did get the gist of all you wrote. I do think you presented everything really well and came up with solid points about education, early and advanced, at that time in England. I found your research very interesting and I learned something new from it.
Yes, Horatio would have been knowledgable and logical, that is another reason I can't see him as a stoic.
Poor Virgil, wonder where he ran off to?
:lol: I'm right here. :D
Wait I haven't completed my case yet, I mentioned the reference to the antique Roman and the desire that Horatio will do the stoic thing and commit suicide, and we know that Horatio is a philosopher. Hamlet somewhere says (and I'm going by memory here but I do remember this line distinctly because many years ago I had this quote on hanging on my cubicle wall at work), "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, that your philosophy ever dreamt of." And in act III, scene two, Hamlet addresses and characterizes Horatio thus:
In suffering, suffes nothing, a man that takes fortune's buffets and rewards with equal thanks, blood and judgement well commingled so they are not a pipe to sound, not passion's slave. My goodness. Hamlet has characterized Horatio as a stoic completely. Perhaps he doesn't use the word, but given everything throughout the play, what other conclusion can one arrive at?Quote:
HAMLET
What ho! Horatio!
Enter HORATIO
HORATIO
Here, sweet lord, at your service.
HAMLET
Horatio, thou art e'en as just a man
As e'er my conversation coped withal.
HORATIO
O, my dear lord,--
HAMLET
Nay, do not think I flatter;
For what advancement may I hope from thee
That no revenue hast but thy good spirits,
To feed and clothe thee? Why should the poor be flatter'd?
No, let the candied tongue lick absurd pomp,
And crook the pregnant hinges of the knee
Where thrift may follow fawning. Dost thou hear?
Since my dear soul was mistress of her choice
And could of men distinguish, her election
Hath seal'd thee for herself; for thou hast been
As one, in suffering all, that suffers nothing,
A man that fortune's buffets and rewards
Hast ta'en with equal thanks: and blest are those
Whose blood and judgment are so well commingled,
That they are not a pipe for fortune's finger
To sound what stop she please. Give me that man
That is not passion's slave, and I will wear him
In my heart's core, ay, in my heart of heart,
As I do thee.
Welcome back, Virgil! :D I read you post, but I still can't agree. I am going to try this approach and reply -
Well, that is how Hamlet sees him at that time, but he does not call him a stoic. Remember, too that Hamlet is brooding throughout the play over all of his many loses and frustrated by his own stilted action. In contrast to his own impassioned mood, he sees Horatio his way - but does he color him the way he wants him to be? Maybe that is not really how Horatio is - perhaps Hamlet is not being realistic. That is not to say that Hamlet is mad or insane but rather affected by the events that have transpired since the beginning of the play. Horatio's demeanor and actions in the play speak louder to me, than Hamlet's words describing H. Perhaps Hamlet's perceptions are distorted to some extent.
The conclusion I arrived at in an earlier post. I quote myself (emphasis my own now):Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Hamlet's reference is to what he loves about Horatio. Regardless of Horatio's true nature, these comments are only Hamlet's OPINION, how HE sees Horatio. It is proof of nothing. Just because Hamlet THINKS Horatio "suffers nothing" doesn't mean that it is true. From Hamlet's wildly passionate point of view, Horatio's "normality" would certainly make him seem as though he blessedly unemotional. But it's simply not true. Horatio is obviously emotional, in fact distraught, at Hamlet's death. A stoic would control his emotions and approach the death "rationally". Horatio cares for him passionately enough to not want to live in a world without him, and he says so. Hardly Stoicism.Quote:
This is one of my favorite speeches in Hamlet. It is such a beautiful expression of love between two friends. And it SEEMS at first as if Hamlet is saying that Horatio is a Stoic. But THEN he says that Horatio is blessed by having a nature whose blood and judgement are so well commingled that they do not react wildly to every emotion. This doesn't imply Stoicism. Hamlet sees his own nature as being too passionate and easily moved by emotion, and he expresses an admiration for the balance of emotion and rationality in Horatio's nature. And that is a far cry from coldness, freedom from passion or being unmoved by joy or grief.
Even in Horatio's first scene, when he sees the Ghost and the others urge him to talk to it his reaction is emotional:
"It harrows me with fear and wonder."
And Bernardo says of Horatio:
"How now, Horatio? You tremble and look pale."
Horatio's reactions to Hamlet's tale of his attempted murder and escape is hardly dispassionate. He is horrified by what happened. His comments to Hamlet's story include:
"Remember it, my lord!"
"Is't possible?"
"I beseech you."
"Why, what a king is this!"
Taken where they fall in the conversation, they are expressions of amazement and passionate interest. Certainly he wants to know the circumstances and asks the questions that will elicit the details of the story, but definitely not dispassionately or as a Stoic. He is not a detached observer, nor does he hide his emotional reaction. He simply is not given to huge emotional outbursts.
Which does not make him a Stoic. There is a difference between someone who is not "passions slave" as Hamlet sees himself, and someone who has no passions or does not allow them. You can be a perfectly normal person with no particular philosophy who simply ISN'T RULED by passion.
As for Horatio's "philosophy" - Hamlet speaks to Horatio in Act I, scene 5 in answer to Horatio's:
"O day and night, but this is wondrous strange."
(in itself hardly a dispassionate response to the Ghost's voice telling them to "Swear by his sword.")
To Horatio's exclamation, Hamlet replies:
"And therefore as a stranger give it welcome.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
The reference is NOT to any one particular philosophy such as Stoicism. It is to a reference to Horatio's belief in learning and science as the guiding force in the Universe. Horatio entered the play as a disbeliever in the supernatural. When asked to come to witness the Ghost, he never believes it is real. In fact, Marcellus says:
"Horatio says 'tis but our fantasy,
And will not let belief take hold of him,
Touching this dread sight twice seen of us.
Therefore I have entreated him along
With us to watch the minutes of this night,
That if again this apparition come
He may approve our eyes and speak to it."
To which Horatio replies:
"Tush, tush, 'twill not appear."
This has nothing to do with Stoicism or any other philosophy of behavior or emotional control. It is about Horatio's belief in science and disbelief in religion and the supernatural. And that belief is totally shaken when Horatio actually does see the Ghost. THAT'S the "philosophy" that Hamlet is referring to.
Arlene has expounded on my thoughts beautifully, and with much text to back up her argument. Good examples of Horatio having deep human feelings and emotions, even passions and fears.
I guess whether Horatio is a stoic is a matter of opinion, absent Horatio actually proclaiming it. For me, the ties to Julius Ceasar and the points I've mentioned above are very strong. We all agree that Horatio is calmer than Hamlet. As I compare him to the other characters, Claudius, Polonius, Gertrude, Laertes, Ophelia, he is more calmer and in control of himself than all the other characters. Is there another character more stoic-like than Horatio in the play? I don't think so.
And Janine has a similar quote. I think you guys (sorry, you girls ;) ) are envisioning a stoic to be a Vulcan, like Mr. Spock in Star Trek. Here are a couple of definitions:Quote:
Originally Posted by msdirector
From Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StoicismFrom Internet Encylo of Philosophy, http://www.iep.utm.edu/s/stoicism.htmQuote:
Stoicism is a school of philosophy, the founding of which is associated with Zeno of Citium, which became the foremost popular philosophy among the educated elite in the Greco-Roman Empire,[1] to the point where, in the words of Gilbert Murray, "nearly all the successors of Alexander [...] professed themselves Stoics."[2] It teaches that self-control, fortitude and detachment from distracting emotions, sometimes interpreted as an indifference to pleasure or pain, allows one to become a clear thinker, level-headed and unbiased. A primary goal of Stoicism was to improve the individual’s spiritual well-being. Virtue, reason, and natural law are prime directives. By mastering passions and emotions, Stoics believe it is possible to overcome the discord of the outside world and find peace within oneself. Stoicism holds that passion distorts truth, and that the pursuit of truth is virtuous.
From Standford Enclyo of Philosophy, http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/stoicism/Quote:
The Stoic ethical teaching is based upon two principles already developed in their physics; first, that the universe is governed by absolute law, which admits of no exceptions; and second, that the essential nature of humans is reason. Both are summed up in the famous Stoic maxim, "Live according to nature." For this maxim has two aspects. It means, in the first place, that men should conform themselves to nature in the wider sense, that is, to the laws of the universe, and secondly, that they should conform their actions to nature in the narrower sense, to their own essential nature, reason. These two expressions mean, for the Stoics, the same thing. For the universe is governed not only by law, but by the law of reason, and we, in following our own rational nature, are ipso facto conforming ourselves to the laws of the larger world.
The objectives are clear thinking, control of emotions, immune to misfortunes but not that a person is no longer human. Even Brutus feels the pain of the death of his wife in Julius Ceasar. Notice how many of the themes of the Hamlet play are mentioned in these definitions of stoicism: false judgements (killing of Polonius), misfortune (outrageous fortune), virtue (revenge for the death of one's father), universe govened by law, discord of the outside world, spiritual well being (as opposed to madness), live according to nature. These all interweave within the play in some fashion. The point you are making about Horatio succumbing to emotion is the failure of stoicism. I think that is Shakespeare's point, that stocism fails to be a viable system of understanding and coping with the world.Quote:
Stoicism was one of the new philosophical movements of the Hellenistic period. The name derives from the porch (stoa poikilę) in the Agora at Athens decorated with mural paintings, where the members of the school congregated, and their lectures were held. Unlike ‘epicurean,’ the sense of the English adjective ‘stoical’ is not utterly misleading with regard to its philosophical origins. The Stoics did, in fact, hold that emotions like fear or envy (or impassioned sexual attachments, or passionate love of anything whatsoever) either were, or arose from, false judgements and that the sage--a person who had attained moral and intellectual perfection--would not undergo them. The later Stoics of Roman Imperial times, Seneca and Epictetus, emphasise the doctrines (already central to the early Stoics' teachings) that the sage is utterly immune to misfortune and that virtue is sufficient for happiness. Our phrase ‘stoic calm’ perhaps encapsulates the general drift of these claims.
Well, I think I should bail out for now. I am too tired and I will have to think more about what you have written. Good work, Virgil, finding all these definitions. I am not familiar with these definitions of stoicim. I have never studied the philosophy of stoicism. Your references of similarities to Julius Ceasar and theory is interesting. I suppose my own idea of Horatio is far from yours. I just see the man much differently. I think that Horatio is more removed from the direct emotions, due to the fact that he may actually be an outsider, or not involved personally with the family, only actually with Hamlet, himself. That could be the difference. All the characters you mentioned have been aroused emotionally by the fact that they all think Hamlet mad. Horatio knows he is not. Therefore his attitude would be calmer and more in control.
Well, seems I am the last poster again, for now anyway. I did direct any people from the thread "Hamlet's Father" over to the one about the "Ghost". I will go check to see if anyone new entered that debate...just thinking out loud...sorry....
Perhaps everyone is now convinced that Horatio is a stoic. :D
Your dreaming!:lol:
Maybe petrarch and msdirector faded out. I am fading myself....
Have you seen the other threads, Virgil, on Hamlet? I am going to check them now.