What is literature?

Even if publishers are the ones that determine what is literature, they make a profit on what they print. Naturally they are going to print what they think will sell, what they feel the public will buy and read. The people and the popularity of the book still decide what is literature.

Dare I say it, I've heard The Da Vinci Code referred to as literature even though, in my opinion, it was a poorly written book. I'm willing to bet that in twenty years people will still be reading it. There's nothing spectacular about Dan Brown's style of writing, little truth in the Priory of Sion and Mary Magdalene scandal, yet it is referred to as "literature" because of it's popularity.

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Originally Posted by Danika_Valin

Even if publishers are the ones that determine what is literature, they make a profit on what they print. Naturally they are going to print what they think will sell, what they feel the public will buy and read. The people and the popularity of the book still decide what is literature.

Dare I say it, I've heard The Da Vinci Code referred to as literature even though, in my opinion, it was a poorly written book. I'm willing to bet that in twenty years people will still be reading it. There's nothing spectacular about Dan Brown's style of writing, little truth in the Priory of Sion and Mary Magdalene scandal, yet it is referred to as "literature" because of it's popularity.

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It is popular because of the rise of religion in world culture at the present time, and because of its percieved sacrilege. We live in very conservative times, but who can say what the climate will be years from now? The political pendulum swings both ways.
While The Da Vinci Code may retain popularity for a while, especially among those who care about such things, I cannot see it being regarded as great literature in the distant future. Shock value wears thin over time if that is all there is to recommend it in the first place.

modernism or "abstract expressionism" i deny to regard as art; whatever "intentions" the artist might've had, a can of trash or a canvas with randomly splattered paint fail to register within me an aesthetic appeal. I think that art has to be strived for, to be well thought out and ultimately have some semblence in its form that connects itself to the artist's intention. otherwise, it's just pretention and contrivance.

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Originally Posted by yellowsubmarine

modernism or "abstract expressionism" i deny to regard as art; whatever "intentions" the artist might've had, a can of trash or a canvas with randomly splattered paint fail to register within me an aesthetic appeal. I think that art has to be strived for, to be well thought out and ultimately have some semblence in its form that connects itself to the artist's intention. otherwise, it's just pretention and contrivance.

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Do you refer to flow-of-conscienceness works such as "On the Road" in reference to literary art? If so, I must agree with you.

you mean stream of consciousness? unfortunately i'm not familiar with the particular work that you're referring to, but i've read faulkner's Sound and the Fury and i think it's great... a little difficult to follow, but the text holds meaning.

i definately agree that literature is an art..however how the books are classifyed in the book store is somewhat based upon what picture the author paints (metaphorically speaking of art) not much of a picture is painted with the dictionary but alas it is literature is it not? to answer your question directly "what is literature?" i have to honestly tell you that i dont know. as we can see from this thread obviously alot of what people define it as is based upon opinion. so i guess you have to paint your own picture. :cool:

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Originally Posted by yellowsubmarine

you mean stream of consciousness? unfortunately i'm not familiar with the particular work that you're referring to, but i've read faulkner's Sound and the Fury and i think it's great... a little difficult to follow, but the text holds meaning.

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Sorry about that; I was still half-asleep.

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Originally Posted by Manfred

Who, in fact, determines what is literature, and what is not? Is it the author, or the society he lives in, or posterity?
I have heard of authors who believe that their most widely published material is garbage, and that those books were only written in order to make a living, even while the stuff they would like to be recognized for is considered to be not commercial enough for publication.
I have heard of others who believed themselves to be second-rate hacks, but whom posterity deemed otherwise.
What, or whom, is the real barometer; sales, critical acclaim, or enduring popularity?

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This is the point I was making on the other thread. Arthur Conan Doyle considered Sherlock Holmes to be garbage, but the very name will sell a book even now. Lovecraft considered himself to be a second-rate hack, and still sells every where. Robert E. Howard wrote only from the time he was 15 until his suicide at age 30. He created characters such as Conan, Red Sonja, Kull, Solomon Kane, and many others. His books still sell.

Pulp fiction, printed on cheap paper in the depression in colorful magazine covers still sells today. An revival of The Shadow and Doc Savage reprints is currently underway. The first volume of The Shadow is at the printers and will be at selected specialty stores in mid-July, and shipping from Diamond Distributors in October. Each paperback will retail for $12.95 and contain two complete, unabridged pulp adventures of The Shadow, with covers by George Rozen and interior illustrations by Edd Cartier. The reprints can also be ordered directly from: Anthony Tollin; P.O. Box 761474; San Antonio; TX 78245-1474 ([email protected] add $3.00 for postage and packaging) or from Nostalgia Ventures' website (www.nostalgiaventures.com).

Meanwhile, many classical authors are usually remembered for a single book. Few people would know that Bram Stoker wrote anything other than Dracula. Or that Melville wrote something besides Moby Dick.

Are songs literature? Yes. I don't care for some rap lyrics, but because I personally do not like it doesn't change the fact that someone wrote it to express a feeling. Feeling is what makes literature, when the author can make the reader/listener feel what he/she feels. :cool:

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Originally Posted by Pendragon

Feeling is what makes literature, when the author can make the reader/listener feel what he/she feels. :cool:

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I agreed with everything you said up to this point. Feeling makes literature? As beautiful as that sounds, it is such an empty phrase. It also contradicts what you said before. Did Lovecraft really want his readers to "feel what he feels," or was he just trying to sell books? Didn't the popularity of the books turn them into "literature?"

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Originally Posted by Danika_Valin

I agreed with everything you said up to this point. Feeling makes literature? As beautiful as that sounds, it is such an empty phrase. It also contradicts what you said before. Did Lovecraft really want his readers to "feel what he feels," or was he just trying to sell books? Didn't the popularity of the books turn them into "literature?"

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Well, I'll concede the point about the popularity, but yes, Lovecraft was a tormented, haunted soul, and it comes out in his writings. If you read Poe closely, you will even find more than a few references to the alcohol that was destroying the man. An author tends to put him or herself into the work, and you learn much about the person from the literature they put out. If there is a continuing central character, (over several books); look for it to be the author in disguise. For example Sir Arthur Conan Doyle had learned to analyze and deduct evidence from his medical instructor, Dr. Joseph Bell. When he began writing Sherlock Holmes, Bell became Holmes and Doyle became Watson. ;) :nod:

To qualify as "literature," a book must have a timeless, universal appeal. If it can achieve that, then future generations will continue to read and enjoy it. Shakespeare, Dickens, Hardy, Doyle, Twain, Faulkner,Wodehouse, Camus, even crazy ol' H.P.
Lovecraft---all of them touched on our deepest joys/ fears. And because their output didn't "date," it has survived the time of time.
But is Dan Brown one of the "immortals"? Only time will tell....but I kinda doubt it. Speculation about the personal life of Jesus may be all the fad this year, but will it be just as trendy in 2056? If new facts about Jesus should come to life, then Brown's
premise may be disproven or compromised. Remember that other blockbuster, CHARIOTS OF THE GODS, which people today barely remember? Who reads CHARIOTS OF THE GODS anymore? A gimmick isn't enough to ensure longevity. And if interest in the Da Vinci premise doesn't last, then neither will our collective memory of this rather mediocre novel.

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Originally Posted by Mary Sue

But is Dan Brown one of the "immortals"? Only time will tell....but I kinda doubt it. Speculation about the personal life of Jesus may be all the fad this year, but will it be just as trendy in 2056? If new facts about Jesus should come to life, then Brown's
premise may be disproven or compromised. Remember that other blockbuster, CHARIOTS OF THE GODS, which people today barely remember? Who reads CHARIOTS OF THE GODS anymore? A gimmick isn't enough to ensure longevity. And if interest in the Da Vinci premise doesn't last, then neither will our collective memory of this rather mediocre novel.

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Boy, do I ever hope you right! I don't want to hear about Dan Brown in the year 2007, let alone 2056!

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Originally Posted by Pendragon

If you read Poe closely, you will even find more than a few references to the alcohol that was destroying the man.

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Poe was a teatotaler, in fact, he was almost allergic to alcohol.

Poe also lost both of his parents when he was very long, and the death of his mother particularly disturbed him. Is it any wonder that in "The Raven," the Raven rests on a bust of Pallas? Pallas (Athena) had no mother and was created from Zeus's head. Literally.

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Originally Posted by PeterL

Poe was a teatotaler, in fact, he was almost allergic to alcohol.

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I would be very interested to know where you came up with this information, Peter. This quote is from Wikkapedia:

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Originally Posted by From Wikkapedia

The evening of January 20, 1842, the lovely Virginia broke a blood vessel while singing and playing the piano. Blood began to rush forth from her mouth. It was the first sign of consumption, now more commonly known as tuberculosis. She only partially recovered. Poe began to drink more heavily under the stress of Virginia's illness. He left Graham's and attempted to find a new position, for a time angling for a government post. He returned to New York, where he worked briefly at the Evening Mirror before becoming editor of the Broadway Journal. There he became involved in a noisy public feud with Henry Wadsworth Longfellow. On January 29, 1845, his poem "The Raven" appeared in the Evening Mirror and became a popular sensation.

The Broadway Journal failed in 1846. Poe moved to a cottage in the Fordham section of The Bronx, New York. He loved the Jesuits at Fordham University and frequently strolled about its campus conversing with both students and faculty. Fordham University's bell tower even inspired him to write "The Bells." The Poe Cottage is on the southeast corner of the Grand Concourse and Kingsbridge Road, and is open to the public. Virginia died there in 1847. Increasingly unstable after his wife's death, Poe attempted to court the poet Sarah Helen Whitman. Their engagement failed, purportedly because of Poe's drinking and erratic behavior; however there is also strong evidence that Miss Whitman's mother intervened and did much to derail their relationship. He then returned to Richmond and resumed a relationship with a childhood sweetheart, Sarah Elmira Royster, who, by that time, was a widow.

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You will note two references to Poe's problems with alcohol even in these two short paragraphs. http://www.websmileys.com/sm/sad/861.gif

The entire article goes through Poe's extremely mysterious death, which the attending physician decreed was due to alcoholism, but others have questioned. We probably will never know for certain.