A comparative analysis, of sorts...

I think she is a woman because women ar so easy to victimize. It would seem very strange for a man to react to life the way that she does. The closest is her lover, Leon, but even he abondones the romance for realism.
Men are stereotypically more sensible, pas vrai?
I think it's the reason, but i need to think it through more before i can formulate a reason...
May i compliment, what an excellent question. It hadn't occured to me at all!

Now, since the theme for the discussion is the language and communication, may i ask, what do you think about the three men, who are obviously examples of different types of communication. What do they resemble? Again, i have my own opinion, but i'm curious of your interpretation.

With the "three men" I presume you mean Charles Bovary, Rodolphe, and Leon, n'est pas?
I would love to discuss them, regardless, especially their various motives in communication, even if you do not intend them. :D
Charles, to me, seems a real boring, black-and-white, logical, analytical person; at the same time, he never seems oblivious of things (except Madame's affairs, which he discovers later), but merely ignores everything. He leads a simple lifestyle in a career that seemed more handed to him than worked for diligently, particularly by the elder Madame Bovary, Charles' mother. I think because of his mother, this influences Charles' behavior and personality, nearly desiring his passive lifestyle, and wanting someone to dominate, make decisions (such as giving power of attorney to Emma Bovary), and he never quite states anything remarkable, but more relies on others to speak on his behalf.
Rodolphe, Madame's Bovary's first affair, I think, seems very cunning, willful, and really only desires to benefit himself. Most of his communication strategies appear much more aggressive, in opposition to Charles, and he attempts at any option to gain the "upper hand" in any situation. Whether Madame Bovary noticed this from the beginning, I feel skeptical, as, in my opinion, I think she may have strove in such desperation to escape from Charles, literally, she would have taken anything! :p
Leon seems the absolute opposite from Charles, too, yet more of a mirror to Emma Bovary; he appears just as optimistic, idealistic, utopian, romantic, yet just as fickle as Madame Bovary, hence he feels no problem with traveling abroad to study law. At times, Leon does seem slightly boastful and immodest, but I think this further reflects Madame Bovary, and, with this reflection, this may also explain her nearly obsessive attraction to him; unfortunate to observe, however, Leon mirrors her so much that his fickle emotions and desires burn out as quickly as they appeared. Through his communication, he has a great amount of assertive charm, compassion, and emotion, yet he seems slightly confused with himself as well - perhaps in a state of transition with studying abroad, and the like, hence making his abandoning from Emma (slightly more stabilized with a husband and children) easier.

More research, or perhaps thought... on the topic of "Madame Bovary, c'est moi"
Emma Bovary is feeble, as a consequence of her naivity about the world, and her lack of self-understanding; or ability to empathize.
Her illusion of her self is amoungst other things founded in her beauty. Think, in the 19th centuary, it was very much the woman's role to be attractive so that she might attract a good mate.

So perhaps Emma's naivity is really a criticism of the society of the time; a lack of education and nurture. The children of the age simply aren't equipped for life. they haven't the necessary social skills; since they are brought up in an ideological world, and thus have a hard time adjusting to reality.

According to Flaubert this makes people neurotic, for example Emma Bovary, neurotic? I would say so. In any case, research shows, and i could if desired go into more detail, that Flaubert was very neurotic, "Madame Bovary, c'est moi".

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Originally Posted by Chava

More research, or perhaps thought... on the topic of "Madame Bovary, c'est moi"
Emma Bovary is feeble, as a consequence of her naivity about the world, and her lack of self-understanding; or ability to empathize.
Her illusion of her self is amoungst other things founded in her beauty. Think, in the 19th centuary, it was very much the woman's role to be attractive so that she might attract a good mate.

So perhaps Emma's naivity is really a criticism of the society of the time; a lack of education and nurture. The children of the age simply aren't equipped for life. they haven't the necessary social skills; since they are brought up in an ideological world, and thus have a hard time adjusting to reality.

According to Flaubert this makes people neurotic, for example Emma Bovary, neurotic? I would say so. In any case, research shows, and i could if desired go into more detail, that Flaubert was very neurotic, "Madame Bovary, c'est moi".

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I entirely see what you mean here, Chava - well done, and I cannot agree more! :nod: Perhaps, too, this could give rise for the upcoming era of women's rights, particularly in the U.S. and parts of Europe, during Flaubert's era - just a thought.
Again, very well done with the research!

Back to your comment mono.
I agree though i would also have included Justin, the boy who admires her from a distance. why? because in this context, he is another example of someone who never manages to express his emotions, the romantic boy, who never gets any recognition, and whom is always lost for words. (ssems fairly obvious doesn't it?)

And then about leon... Though i agree with everything you say, i could perhaps again lead it onto the following.
The relationship they have is like candyfloss dipped in sirup and sprinkled with sugar. It's mouth-dryingly-sweet. And that's the problem, it's all very well that they have this flirt and pretentious love at first, but without further dynamics within the relationship it's bound to end. They're relation never develops beyond that suggary dribble, and that's why they both get fed up with each other - Flaubert is again showing the lack of communication. If they had been able to express themselves completely, and talk sensibly, they would have a reasonable idea about who they were, and where they were going.
Does that make any sense?

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Originally Posted by Chava

I agree though i would also have included Justin, the boy who admires her from a distance. why? because in this context, he is another example of someone who never manages to express his emotions, the romantic boy, who never gets any recognition, and whom is always lost for words. (ssems fairly obvious doesn't it?)

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Oops, I probably would have included him, too! :p
In a rather odd way, Justin always reminded me much of what Charles Bovary must have seemed like as a boy - perhaps romantic, but not expressive, and through this absence of expression, he no longer felt romantic (in essence, for Justin, I always feared the worst for his future). Perhaps Emma Bovary observes this, too, though Justin speaks almost nothing of his infatuation; he remained very romantic, yet only to himself, giving out a rather aloof manner to everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Chava

And then about leon... Though i agree with everything you say, i could perhaps again lead it onto the following.
The relationship they have is like candyfloss dipped in sirup and sprinkled with sugar. It's mouth-dryingly-sweet. And that's the problem, it's all very well that they have this flirt and pretentious love at first, but without further dynamics within the relationship it's bound to end. They're relation never develops beyond that suggary dribble, and that's why they both get fed up with each other - Flaubert is again showing the lack of communication. If they had been able to express themselves completely, and talk sensibly, they would have a reasonable idea about who they were, and where they were going.

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Precisely my interpretation, I could not agree more, and I like your analogy.
The brief relationship did seem rather rudimentary in a way of feeling fickle of each other, but I think Madame Bovary desired this most to, perhaps, escape the boring, structured life she experienced at home with her husband and child, who she neglected frequently. Leon and Emma, I think, experience a lot together, but much dwells unsaid - more assumed that both of them know, especially Leon, that a relationship would never ideally form - the thought seemed more fantasy-like.
As you said with your analogy, their relationship seems very sugar-coated, and, when the sugar gets consumed, there remains much of a dull emptiness.

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Originally Posted by mono

at this time, just as now, to say the least, adultery seems slightly frowned upon,

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:lol: Well, if you look at it from the point of view of the cheated upon, I would think it's not a good thing. Adultery, whether accepted or not, whether frowned upon by gov't or not, is not a noble endeavor.

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Originally Posted by mono

The more and more I think of it, the more I find similarities between Madame Bovary, Anna Karenina by Leo Tolstoy, and, oddly, The Scarlet Letter by Nathaniel Hawthorne. :D

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This seems to have been a passion of 19th century male novelists. Don't forget Henry James, Portrait of a Lady, Daisy Miller, and others, and Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Ubervilles, and I bet there are others I can't think of. It seemed that male writers wanted to try to understand women, and interestingly each had their own perspective. Also intersting is that the novels centered around adultery.

I'vew just read through the discussion, and thought about making a twist, something to do with language as a definition of your identity? or perhaps more with communication? What do you think?

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Originally Posted by Chava

I'vew just read through the discussion, and thought about making a twist, something to do with language as a definition of your identity? or perhaps more with communication? What do you think?

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A very good idea, Chava.
I just reviewed the thread, too, including parts of my critiquing opinions of Charles Bovary, Leon, and Rodolphe, and feel that you really have some good ideas on adding a "twist" to the discussion.
Anyone, including in actual life and well-formed fictional characters, will communicate how they feel, even if not verbalized entirely. Though, of course, we can only read non-verbal communication (such as body language) through Flaubert's narratives, each character, I believe, distinguishes themselves especially with interactions with others. Leon and Emma Bovary have a much more clear communication strategy, but I think this seems due to such similar feelings, obsessions, passions, idealism, etc.; regardless, as I posted previously, Leon relates so well with Emma's nature that he shows little trouble in breaking off their weakly-declared relationship, reflecting well her finicky nature.
Though this sounds vague, Emma Bovary's connections with everyone else seem rather vague, aloof, and non-intimate. The affair with Rodolphe seemed more an act of desperation to escape the overwhelmingly-organized and boring structure with Charles Bovary and their child; this occurrence strongly emphasizes her determined desire to escape in any way possible, and subsequently shows the greedy, selfish manner of Rodolphe, whom I nearly detest more than Charles.
With Charles, his nature seems most obvious among all of the characters, particularly through his communication; he seems a dull, rather pampered, and oblivious individual who practically "earned" his position in life mainly through his parents. His passive nature toward Emma, I think, makes obvious an insecurity and lack of self-confidence within himself that requires a more dominating figure, even though she nearly ruins his financial life; without her, after her death, I truly wish Flaubert would have further described his life following the death.

Yes, i agree with your analysis, and i think i will take that approach.
However, you mentioned the child, la petite Berthe....
What is she? she is such an anonymous character, what is her purpose? Again i have an idea, but what do you think?

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Originally Posted by Chava

However, you mentioned the child, la petite Berthe....
What is she? she is such an anonymous character, what is her purpose? Again i have an idea, but what do you think?

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I had always thought that Berthe played a very neutral role in the novel, mostly representing inevitable responsibility that Emma Bovary disliked and the required structural-functionalist lifestyle she desired to avoid. Mainly because of Emma, however, and her financial woes, I think Berthe will live a life unlike any other Bovary, from the sound of their family - a life of poverty, struggle, and feeling non-pampered.

True, Berthe also shows the mood swings that Emma undergoes, one day she hits her, because she is a distraction, the next she wants to dress and cuddle her.
But i think the essence of Berthe is summed up when Emma is pregnant and wishes desperately for the birth of a boy, so that he might be free (and she could have been a part of that freedom) but when she has a girl, it functions like a seal on her fate. In any case, i think Berthe is very symbolic towards the fate of Madame Bovary.

I know it's a long time since it was relevant, but I finally found the quote i was looking for. It goes as follows:

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"...exaggerated turns of speech conceal mediocre affections: as if the fulness of the soul might not sometimes overflow in the emptiest of metaphors, since no one, ever, can give the exact measurements of his needs, nor of his conceptions, nor of his sufferings, and the human word is like a cracked cauldron upon which we beat out melodies fit for making bears dance when we are trying to move the stars to pity. "

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Madame Bovary

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...exaggerated turns of speech conceal mediocre affections: as if the fulness of the soul might not sometimes overflow in the emptiest of metaphors, since no one, ever, can give the exact measurements of his needs, nor of his conceptions, nor of his sufferings, and the human word is like a cracked cauldron upon which we beat out melodies fit for making bears dance when we are trying to move the stars to pity.

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Wow, good quote, Chava! :nod:
This quote very well demonstrates what we outlined - what we outlined and discussed in a wonderful depth, if I may say. :D No one could have quite stated it better of the things unspoken, but rather felt, thought, and imagined. Well done!