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Don't worry, I didn't mean to imply the Lawrence somehow justified my poem - if it needed justification. I was just struck by the parallel analogy, which, when I devised it, seemed much more free associative and even random and surrealistic. The Lawrence sort of shows me what I was on about, partially.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
I didnt like it at first but the more I read it the more interesting I found it. I like the way he turnd presentable around to present.
And how hes looking at them all along like mushrooms or some other thing to be examined and how all these words sort of conote that.Quote:
Presentable, eminently presentable —
shall I make you a present of him?
Quote:
specimen
fresh clean
species
Why is it that, according to Lawrence, this is a male 'phenomenon'? Or is it still? 'The female of the species' is not fallible in this way? ;)Quote:
How beastly the bourgeois is
especially the male of the species —
Maybe not in Lawrence's day - but they are equally mushroomy now - just watch the apprentice!
Are you referring to that programme with Alan Sugar? I don't watch it, I am afraid, but I read that a female candidate won it this year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xamonas Chegwe
You know, that is a great question, Scher. Lawrence had very specific ideas of male/female roles and relationships. I don't know what to make of it here. Also, given Lawrence's religion of sex (whoa, is that going to get people worked up?) here's another set of interesting lines that again I can't figure out how they fit into this poem, but given Lawrence's ideas cannot be accidental:Quote:
Originally Posted by Scheherazade
Quote:
standing there so sleek and erect and eyeable
But isnt he just saying that the male bourgeois is worse than the female?
I like that line virgil especially the extra and I suppose unnessarryand between "sleek" and "erect".
I don't think he is saying the male bourgeois (I always find that word hard to spell) is worse than the female. I think he is latching onto gender stereotypes, I hope only to make a point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightshade
How beastly the bourgeois is
especially the male of the species —
I think, while both men and women did constitute the bourgeoisie, Lawrence might have reflected the sentiments of women's rights at that time, maybe to compare. I think he is clear when he writes, 'especially the male'.
Maybe he fancied the women more.
Wouldn't discount that possibility. :D I noticed how much he likes to use these words; beastly, nasty, ghastly. He criticizes them and then he assumes their language, and also in other poems. I think you are right, it is a rant, but I wonder what its really about.Quote:
Originally Posted by blp
Lawrence grew up in the mining town of Eastwood, where he experienced the Bourgeoisie at first hand in the guise of the mine-owners. His father was a miner, but his mother was a schoolteacher (hence somewhat more bourgeois by some definitions).
He won a county scholarship to Nottingham Boys High School, the first from Eastwood ever to do so, where he was looked down upon as a working-class upstart by many of the other boys - especially the rich ones that were in the school due to status rather than ability. This may shed some light on his singling out the male bourgeois for particular scorn.
Perhaps this was a personal pet peeve as Xam hypothesizes. But the reason we are even debatng this is because Lawrence was a strident anti-feminist.
I think it shaped him, and dramatically. Hardly a 'pet peeve'. There are disaffected people growing up, finding their way, right now, questioning the fairness. He could have been anti-feminist while still appreciating the separation of women to men. As I recall reading, feminists were considered radical, it was in debate, and Lady Chatterly's Lover is an example of the bourgeoisie, and sexual enlightenment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Another week, another poem:
The Portrait of Little JA in a Prospect of Flowers
He was spoiled from childhood
by the future, which he mastered
rather early and apparently
without great difficulty.
BORIS PASTERNAK
I
Darkness falls like a wet sponge
And Dick gives Genevieve a swift punch
In the pajamas. “Aroint thee witch.”
Her tongue, from previous ecstasy
Releases thoughts like little hats.
“He clap’d me first during the eclipse.
Afterwards I noted his manner
Much altered. But he sending
At that time, certain handsome jewels
I durst not seem to take offense.”
In a far recess of summer
Monks are playing soccer.
II
So far is goodness a mere memory
Or naming of recent scenes of badness
That even these lives, children,
You may pass through to be blessed,
So fair does each invent his virtue.
And coming from a white world, music
Will sparkle at the lips of many who are
Beloved. Then these, as dirty handmaidens
To some transparent witch, will dream
Of a white hero’s subtle wooing,
And time shall force a gift on each.
That beggar to whom you gave no cent
Striped the night with his strange descant.
III
But I cannot escape the picture
Of my small self in that bank of flowers:
My head among the blazing phlox
Seemed a pale and gigantic fungus.
I had a hard stare, accepting
Everything, taking nothing,
As though the rolled up future might stink
As loud as stood the sick moment
The shutter clicked. Though I was wrong,
Still, as the loveliest feelings
Must soon find words, and these, yes,
Displace them, so I am not wrong
In calling this comic version of myself
The true one. For as change is horror
Virtue is really stubbornness
And only in the light of lost words
Can we imagine our rewards.
- John Ashbery