The Old Testament IS Christianity

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Originally Posted by Unspar

The New Testament refers to these things as part of the Old Convenant. Paul makes it clear in many of his letters that circumcision doesn't matter anymore because everybody is now part of God's covenant. You can circumcise or not, eat pork or not, but it doesn't matter because those laws have been fulfilled in Jesus Christ.



The Bible says that the wages of sin are death, so any sin (not just adultery) is punishable by death according to God. The nice thing about it is that Jesus fulfilled that law as well; He died for our sins for us so that we don't have to.



Yes, I believe that we shouldn't make graven images of God. But that refers to idols, not artworks (which people do not worship). It's still important not to worship idols. If you're trying to imply Jesus is an idol that is unlawfully worshipped, you'd be wrong (at least by the commandment you quote here) because Jesus is not an image created by man. You could make a case that Jesus was a blasphemer or a heretic (if you believe that He took the name of the Lord in vain), but it's absurd to say He is a graven image of God.

The point of the Old Testament is that it lays the foundation for the coming of Jesus. As Paul explains in Galatians and Romans, the law was given so that we might know we are sinners and that we require the saving grace of Jesus. Jesus fulfills this law by offering Himself as a sacrifice for the sins of everyone.

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Actually, the matter of clean and unclean animal flesh is never reversed in the New Teastament Writings. Paul only speaks of meat bought at the market. Why? Because nothing known to have been sacrificed to idols was good to eat - but, in the case of what was sold at the market, the history of every piece of meat couls not be known (except by Prophecy), and, if it was likely not idolatrously made abominable, it was to be eaten with a clear conscience, as knowing no connection to an idol.
Physical cleanliness was used in the Old Covenant to illustrate spiritual Purity, but was not necessary for establishing it in the Old or New Covenants. However, Christians do not dispense with the physical, since all cleanliness belongs together, the physical following from the spiritual.
It is true that images for idolatry are still forbidden in the New Covenant - the first generations of the Church suffered much in avoiding this in the pagan Roman era. But images for non-idolatrous purposes existed in the Old Covenant given through Moses, as with the Cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant.
Adultery is still not considered to merit life, but Christians understand the concept of handing over Judgement to CHRIST in an era of patiently waiting, revealed Grace. Nonetheless, the men crucified beside JESUS were not let down from their punishments (for attrocious crimes), but the one that acknowledged his guilt was offered Hope and an immediate new beginning spiritually.

But Jesus made it perfectly clear when he said, forget all old laws, remember this only, love thine nieghbor as thineself.

The old testament is merely a difference to show us of what Jesus has freed us from.

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Theshizznigg wrote:
But Jesus made it perfectly clear when he said, forget all old laws, remember this only, love thine nieghbor as thineself.

The old testament is merely a difference to show us of what Jesus has freed us from.

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When did HE say, "Forget old laws"?

I completely agree that HE replced the old form of the Covenant with the New, as a man replaces his childhood with his manhood - but as the latter does not nullify the person, but matures him, so also the New Covenant fulfills the Hope of the Covenant in its older form.

Under the old form of the Covenant, there existed shadows of things to be revealed in the New Covenant. Get yourself a sheet of cloth, place it up like a screen, put a light source on the opposite side, and your arm behind it, on that same lit side - then look at the shadow cast by your hand:
it will only take shape in conformity to the reality of that hand behind the screen. So it is with the shadows of things to be revealed in the New and Everlasting Covenant, during the Old Covenant. Some things, according to the perfection of how GOD created all things in the beginning, must remain in effect - otherwise we be still going against the nature assigned the creation by GOD, when HE saw all that HE had made, and that it was very good.

Eating unclean animals - like eating from a trash can - is still dirty physically. Or if someone put rusty nails before you to eat, would you bless and sanctify them and enjoy? Not everything was given to eat - and there is no new teaching under the New Covenant that we now no longer need to be clean.

As is written in a Book by St. Clement, this Homily of St. Peter says:
"Yea rather, he will be worthy of greater punishment, who does good works not well; for merit accrues to men from good works, but only if they be done as God commands. Now God has ordered every one who worships Him to be sealed by Baptism; but if you refuse, and obey your own will rather than God's, you are doubtless contrary and hostile to His will."

Then, a little after, it says:
"But when you have been regenerated by water, show by good works the likeness in you of that Father who hath begotten you.... There is truly a certain peculiar observance of our religion, which is not so much imposed upon men, as it is sought out by every worshipper of God by reason of its purity. By reason of chastity, I say, of which there are many kinds, but first, that every one be careful that he `come not near a menstruous woman; 'for this the law of God regards as detestable. But though the law had given no admonition concerning these things, should we willingly, like beetles, roll ourselves in filth? For we ought to have something more than the animals, as reasonable men, and capable of heavenly senses, whose chief study it ought to be to guard the conscience from every defilement of the heart.

"Moreover, it is good, and tends to purity, also to wash the body with water. I call it good, not as if it were that prime good of the purifying of the mind, but because this the washing of the body is the sequel of that good. For so also our Master rebuked some of the Pharisees and scribes, who seemed to be better than others, and separated from the people, calling them hypocrites, because they purified only those things which were seen of men, but left defiled and sordid their hearts, which God alone sees. To some therefore of them-not to all-He said, `Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye cleanse the outside of the cup and platter, but the inside is full of pollution. O blind Pharisees, first make clean what is within, and what is without shall be clean also.' For truly, if the mind be purified by the light of knowledge, when once it is clean and clear, then it necessarily takes care of that which is without a man, that is, his flesh, that it also may he purified. But when that which is without, the cleansing of the flesh, is neglected, it is certain that there is no care taken of the purity of the mind and the cleanness of the heart. Thus therefore it comes to pass, that he who is clean inwardly is without doubt cleansed outwardly also, but not always that he who is clean outwardly is also cleansed inwardly - to wit, when he does these things that he may please men.

"But this kind of chastity is also to be observed, that sexual intercourse must not take place heedlessly and for the sake of mere pleasure, but for the sake of begetting children. And since this observance is found even amongst some of the lower animals, it were a shame if it be not observed by men, reasonable, and worshipping God. But there is this further reason why chastity should be observed by those who hold the trite worship of God, in those forms of it of which we have spoken, and others of like sort, that it is observed strictly even amongst those who are still held by the devil in error, for even amongst them there is in some degree the observance of chastity. What then? Will you not observe, now that you are reformed, what you observed when you were in error?

"But perhaps some one of you will say, Must we then observe all things which we did while we worshipped idols? Not all. But whatever things were done well, these you ought to observe even now; because, if anything is rightly done by those who are in error, it is certain that that is derived from the truth; whereas, if anything is not rightly done in the true religion, that is, without doubt, borrowed from error. For good is good, though it be done by those who are in error; and evil is evil, though it be done by those who follow the truth. Or shall we be so foolish, that if we sue a worshipper of idols to be sober, we shall refuse to be sober, lest we should seem to do the same things which he does who worships idols? It is not so. But let this be our study, that if those who err do not commit murder, we should not even be angry; if they do not commit adultery, we should not even covet another's wife; if they love their neighbours, we should love even our enemies; if they lend to those who have the means of paying, we should give to those from whom we do not hope to receive anything. And in all things, we who hope for the inheritance of the eternal world ought to excel those who know only the present world; knowing that if their works, when compared with our works, be found like and equal in the day of judgment, there will be confusion to us, because we are found equal in our works to those who are condemned on account of ignorance, and had no hope of the world to come.

"And truly confusion is our worthy portion, if we have done no more than those who are inferior to us in knowledge. But if it be confusion to us, to be found equal to them in works, what shall become of us if the examination that is to take place find us inferior and worse than them? Hear, therefore, how our true Prophet has taught us concerning these things; for, with respect to those who neglect to hear the words of wisdom, He speaks thus: `The queen of the south shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here, and they hear Him not.'"14 But with respect to those who refused to repent of their evil deeds, He spoke thus: `The men of Nineve shall rise in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.' You see, therefore, how He condemned those who were instructed out of the law, by adducing the example of those who came from Gentile ignorance, and showing that the former were not even equal to those who seemed to live in error. From all these things, then, the statement that He propounded is proved, that chastity, which is observed to a certain extent even by those who live in error, should be held much more purely and strictly, in all its forms, as we showed above, by us who follow the truth; and the rather because with us eternal rewards are assigned to its observance."

I have often wondered about whether we should follow the old laws.

Jesus said he had not come to erase the old law, «until everything had been accomplished» ... Now, does that mean the old law is erased, after the crucifixion?

Jesus went against a few of the old laws of «unclean» such as with the food and the total rest on the sabbath. However, he refers often to the old scripture and law.
And Paul tells us that circumcision is irrelevant.

From discussion, I have been told that for Christians, any Mosaic law which does not apply to agape is unimportant to us. This is why we do not follow all of the old laws on uncleanliness.

However, if we forgot the whole of the Old Testament, why is it included in our Bible? Of course we don't, because especially prophets like isiah are very important, as they show us why Jesus is the Messiah. If we did not have the old Testament we could not see how Jesus is the Messiah, until we read and it fits in.

Interestingly, when the RESURRECTED LORD OF GLORY rehearsed to HIS Disciples all that the Scriptures had spoken of HIM, HE referred entirely to things written before the New Covenant.

And when the Apostle Paul spoke of some converts still only being able to recieve the milk of Scripture, as opposed to the Meat thereof, he referred also to those Scriptures alone. Once the LORD's Teaching was known, the Apostles saw it clearly in every verse of Scripture; they had to learn it orally in due order - and so too, as Scribes for the Kingdom of the Heavens, they brought out treasures both old (Scripture) and new (Oral Instruction in the HOLY SPIRIT), not leaving any to a private interpretation, but explaining the simpler things first, then adducing the deepest of things, first out of their knowledge of the Teaching, then showing Testimony of It prophetically in the prior Scriptures.

Waht jesus said, can be read as: the base idea of the old laws is...

for example if you lay down several rules that children must follow, the children will complain and think you are being mean in telling them what they shouldn't do, so instead tell them one rule, what they should do.

So the Ten Commandments, tell us what we shant do, and the words of Jesus tell us what we should do. Both covenants are to instruct us to live the life that God would want for us.

Good point, Stanislaw!

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Originally Posted by Amra

Islam takes it for what it is. It is forbiddent to paint any image of God, or anything that He has given life to. I mentioned this commandement because it seems to me that if you follow one of them, you should follow all of them. If you believe one to be from God, then the other ones are from Him as well. It seems inconsistent to accept the commandments of not killing or stealing as valid, but to ignore this one.

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Is your avatar an image, Amra?

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Originally Posted by Amra

I just thought that this practice is pretty prevelant in the Christian faith. Maybe I am wrong...When you pray, do you pray to God directly, or do you pray to some intermediaries, such as Mary, Jesus, Holy Spirit, etc. to pray to him for you? That would, I guess, be may question.

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No true Christian prays to any image, nor worships one. Many Christians have family members that are finding their way, and, as of yet, still have soiled feet from the detours they are taking. In the Torah, Moses was recieving the Ten Commandments, while, below, the many Israelis were worshipping an idol. The Prophet came down from the mountain with a Commandment against this very thing. The tribe of Levi, Moses's tribe, was against this evil, and out of them came the Priesthood of Israel. GOD sent serpents that punished the idolators. After some individuals died of snake bites, GOD had Moses make a likeness of a serpent upon a pole, and commanded that all still alive but infected with venom look upon this image to recieve supernatural healing. It was not commanded that they trust in it, nor that they pray to it, nor that they worship it - only that they trust in GOD and regard what HE commanded them to look upon. They were to both remind themselves that their worshipping an image of their liking had brought on a chastisement, and they were seeing a prophetic type of CHRIST bearing their curse upon the Cross as an ATONING SACRIFICE.

Never was the making of images banned - only the worshipping of them. Catholics and most other Christians illustrate Sacred History with Images. Some Churches in France have practically the stone equivalent of a wax museum all over the place - a fatiguing sight to me, which looks like undesirable clutter where beauty should excell. My Catholic Parish has few Images, and no one that is used to them ever seems to even notice their presence. No part of the Mass involves them.

The Ark of the Covenant had two Cherubim on it. The Temple of Jerusalem had many symbolic depictions. Crucifixes were anticipated in the serpent on the pole of Moses. The Symbol of the Cross was prohetically anticipated in many ways from the time of Adam and Eve. Pictures of CHRIST only represent HIS Human form - it is thought that one must seek after HIS DEITY in the SPIRIT with spiritual eyes. Pictures of the TRINITY ought not to be made. Some have thought to illustrate an Epiphany representing THEM - not to worship the Image, but to draw to mind historical Apparitions of WHOM they worship as transcending all pictures. I do not go for this - but it is not beyond my awareness that some reason they avoid representing the DEITY while trying to convey a snapshot of a finite Appearance to, say, Abraham, or to whomever.

JESUS and the HOLY SPIRIT are GOD, not mere intermediaries. Only as being both GOD and MAN is JESUS our MEDIATOR. The HOLY SPIRIT, as being the DIVINE SOURCE of the Holy Life of the Saints, is the source of our direct connection in Prayer to GOD. The LORD JESUS CHRIST, in HIS DEITY, relates to us as our CREATOR; as MAN, HE - still Divine in IDENTITY -is the CHAMPION of the human cause for Unity with GOD.

All THREE PERSONS of the TRINITY are GOD, all THREE SPIRIT, all THREE HOLY - the PERSON distinguished as the HOLY SPIRIT is so referred to on account of HIS assuming the Role of pouring HIMSELF out into us as the SPIRIT given us to make us holy unto the TRINITY.

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Originally Posted by Amra

Do they pick and choose what will be followed and what not? do you only follow the 10 commandements or everything? That is the problem, I guess, because even if you say that the punishment is nullified, which of the laws are supposed to be followed and why? If there is no punishment for your actions, what would motivate people to do anything? I mean, when they are already guaranteed paradise, why would they bother doing anything for it? I mean, don't get me wrong, Islam doesn't teach that we earn paradise by our own deeds, but only by God's mercy. However, those who don't even try, cannot hope for God's mercy. There is justice in that. Both hell and heaven are there because of justice. Those who do good deeds, and follow God's law cannot be the same as those who don't. Right? But, it seems to me, that Christianity equates them, because if both of them accept Jesus, then they are both saved, and are hence on the same level?

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CHRIST HIMSELF, GOD INCARNATE, speaking from the DEITY directly, being HIMSELF the very WORD of GOD made Flesh, decided the whole Catholic Tradition. Those that decide otherwise are heretics. All moral Laws are perfectly strict in Christianity. No unholiness can enter Paradise or Heaven. No one that died with a lustful heart can waltz into Heaven. Even the Patriarchs of the Old Covenant era had to quit polygamy before death in order for them to not go to a punishment in hell until CHRIST came and preached the Gospel to the spirits in prison in Sheol.

We must daily seek for all things to be on earth as in Heaven. One ought to seek to live a holy life that can continue right on into Heaven without interruption. The Doctrine of Purgatory is from CHRIST, and warns that those that GOD's Mercy will conduct into Heaven, who were stained with sin at death, must be cleansed someplace outside of their sinless Destination. For some, Purgatory is a season in this very lifetime, with good days following in this world sometimes, in which one's Sanctity is nonetheless tested to the end, or else one's sufferings to there departure from this world not only work out other purposes, but even afford one that lived ill in good health or poorly in riches, an oppurtunity to bear a good Life for no reason but a good heart. After that, Heaven is likely immediate, due to the detachment of the purified soul from the idols of this world, affording the one perfected through sufferings to have arms free to embrace Heaven without further ado.

Some who are in Purgatory between this world and Heaven are gently instructed, merely lacking Wisdom needed to properly regard Heavenly things with due appreciation. No one rolls over from the bed of adultery to the place of honor Mary has recieved in Heaven as a Heroine of the Faith.

A Catholic may not look upon a woman not given him by GOD for a wife with a view to desire her - that is counted as adultery. The Catholic Teaching forbids touching a woman not already espoused honorably. If a man is insensitive to his wife, GOD will not hear his Prayers. A man that treats a woman harshly is likewise not heard by GOD. Padre Pio, a good Catholic, would not admit women to Confession who were dressed immodestly. He did not hate them but told them to go get properly dressed, so that they weren't still in sexual sin while confessing their sins. One must regularly confess all failings and avoid unworthilly recieving Communion. The penance must be fulfilled - and, if a Priest knows a Catholic is unrepentant about a sin, he may not give Absolution.

I am not unique as a Catholic. I grieve over even the slightest failure to love GOD and neighbor. I have always thought that a culprit hasn't the right to say an insincere "sorry" and skip along to the same merry melody as before - Love takes responsibility for one's own offences.

Mililalil,

You are obviously really devout. Most religious types just capitalise the first letter of holy words like 'god', 'christ', 'football', 'beer' etc. You upper-case the whole word! Makes me want to believe in something enough to pop a caps-lock on it's ***. Something profane and atheistical, certainly, but something.

Upper case .. "In electronic communications, it is often considered very poor "netiquette" to type in all capitals, because it can be harder to read and because it can be seen as tantamount to shouting."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_letters

Since I was a boy, I have done this only for terms applying to YAHWEH, as setting the NAME apart from all else. I do use a lot of lower case letters for the bulk of my text. My forefathers used to use a different pen for the NAME in scrolls, than for the rest of the text. Muslims often write initials after names that I find tedious to read, and I admit that many Christians load names with "the Apostle Saint [name] the Great of [location]". That, however, has become a hallmark in various literary traditions.

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than for the rest of the text. Muslims often write initials

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We don't write any initials. Those are abbreviations usually asking for God's blessing on our Prophet peace be upon him.

What I meant was that very thing: each letter is the initial letter of one of the words making the phrase of blessing. I didn't mean that they were proper name initials.

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each letter is the initial letter of one of the words

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As I said before...abbreviations.

All right, Amra. {last word}