Stanislaw, you make a good point, but we non-christians must fight the good fight! We're trying to set souls free! :angel: :nod:
Printable View
Stanislaw, you make a good point, but we non-christians must fight the good fight! We're trying to set souls free! :angel: :nod:
ahh, well good luck, tis a hard fight ye have ahead of you.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatIndividual
Aye, 'tis. 'Tis indeed. But I fight on the side of the good, so the spirit of the ultimate good is with me. The spirit of love, of truth, and of freedom! Such divine, such holy gifts of God!
Moral and religious arguments aside, I think abortion is a phony issue on a planet that is already over-populated. Africa has become the first continent to surpass its human carrying capacity. That means if every acre of arable land was cultivated with the latest techniques, Africans would still not be able to feed themselves an adequate diet.
I visited Sri Lanka several years ago and saw the horrible effects of over-population. Formerly known as Ceylon, the island country had once been a highly prosperous culture called the rice basket of southern Asia. With an exploding population that has reached 18 million, human life in Sri Lanka is now the closet thing to hell I ever saw. Mothers drowned new-born infants they couldn't feed -- how's that for abortion? Starving men committed suicide by laying down on railroad tracks. Scarce food was preserved with epsom salts, which is toxic. I won't even tell you the worst things I saw.
The whole world will turn into Sri Lanka if we fail to control human population. I'm just glad I will be safely dead and in my grave before it happens.
Well, I'm getting splinters here sitting on the fence, in the middle of these discussions, trying to be diplomatic Mod here :D but thank you for understanding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stanislaw
Trust me, I will be careful with this post. I was trying to make a point on the other thread, but even I forget to carefully word things sometimes. :( All this year around the country, and probably around the world there have been staged protests at abortion clinics. That in and of itself is not bad, the first admentment gives people the right to peaceably assemble. But somewhere an abortion doctor lost his/her life. Somewhere personal property was destroyed, either by burning the clinic down or vandlizing it. Somewhere many were arrested when they refused a direct order from the police to quit blocking the entrence. If you are going to use the Bible to justify your actions, read the part that says to obey them that have rule over you also. You don't have to like it or agree with it, my friend, but the law is the law. The same law that protects my religious freedom protects the rights of those who wish to have no religion. Breaking the law in the name of Christianity is still breaking the law.
I have talked to unwed mothers often. It's not an easy choice they have to make. A troubled teenage girl, pregnant , kicked out by her parents, who will take her in? Who will adopt the babies "saved" from abortion? Will it be the protesters? If so, why is the problem not then labled "solved"? And sometimes, yes, it is necessary. It's a hard decision to make, but it has to be made sometimes....I cannot judge these people. I have seen their pain....
I direct this towards no one directly or indirectly. It is the opinion of one man
I think this is too fragile of a matter to be dealt with through generalisations. Each case merits individual consideration and we should give those who have opted for this option the benefit of the doubt because I am sure we all agree that it is a very hard decision.
Well done Stanislaw. You hit the nail on the head. It is almost impossible to change somebodys beliefs, especially when they are as ingrained as politics or religion. I am pro-choice, although that makes a terrible decision sound like a whimsical feeling. I am lucky enough never to have needed to make this decision but I do strongly believe that as humans we do have a choice to do whatever we wish, so long as it doesn't infringe on anothers human rights. Wasn't Iraq invaded recently because its citizens weren't given the freedom they deserve to make their own choices.
ME
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike-eustace
Hello Mike :)
You have a point about `human rights' but discussion of politics isn't allowed here.
Just mentioning it, maybe you're not aware of.
Problem with debate:
Use of emotive language, and the connotation carried by emotive language.
What happened to the facts?
ye sensless mindless baby murding obriens!!!! :mad:
or on the other hand.
Ye nambsy pamby zealots!!! :mad:
heh, just thought I would point out the logic of yonder debate.
Something just occured to me, while abortion is a hot debate, a lot of abortions can be prevented by proper use of protection. Obviously there will be situations when this is not relevant, but often it seems abortions are the result of unwanted pregnancies, so why not use protection? This raises a whole other problem, with certain religious institutes not allowing the use of protection for their subjects.
Anyway, I think proper education in the use of protection can be a very proper preventive measure.
AimusSage, I think that's a very good point about Christian viewpoints on protection.
I acknowledge the futility of debates on abortion, especially from/against a religious standpoint. But I would like to stand as an alternative example of the stereotypes of pro-choice/pro-lifers. I am very liberal, and I am an atheist, and I happen to be against abortion. I am still on the fence as to where I stand politically, since in the cases of pre-natal emergencies, which are by themselves emotionally and physically devestating, it only makes sense to let the mother decide the course of action. I think in such a case it should be a personal moral choice, and legal issues should be set aside.
To me, the question need not have anything to do with the Bible at all, and it bothers me to have my viewpoint most commonly represented by religious zealots, especially those who feel the best solution is to murder doctors. I'd just like to stand as example of someone who opposes abortion, who is not a radical conservative, and whose reasons have nothing to do with religion.
Actually this is so right!!! I had never thought of this... I guess that's why I seldom visit this part of the forum, it can get me so pointlessly angry as political discussion could do ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Stanislaw
Back on topic, well... I used to be kinda against abortion, but I was also influnenced by a lot of religious propaganda... Now I'm kinda in doubt, that is... I don't think it should be easily taken into account as a solution, I mean there are a lot of irresponsible teenagers out there who shouldnt just act lively and then abort if it happens by mistake...pretty much as Aimus said, it's just too easy not to use protection and then have to take certain steps...
However, in cases like rapes or where the health is at serious stake, then why should this be forbidden...as it was said, it depends on the case...
As for starrwriter's post, wow...I had never thought of earth being overpopulated, actually a lot of places are kinda underpopulated and I keep hearing only about low birth rates... It's also a big problem of distribution isn't it?
This subject, I think, among many others regarding biomedical ethics, will never attain peace among everyone, other subjects including physician-assisted suicide (PAS, a.k.a. Death With Dignity), medical marijuana, advanced directives in health care (do not resuscitate, do not intubate, etc.), and other such conflicts.
On the subject of abortion, religion and spirituality only alter beliefs and ethics of one who believes and follows 'x' religion or 'x' religious text. With or without religion, regardless of the person, each will act according to his/her own nature, which offending some others will always prove inevitable. The concept of aborting an unborn fetus does not seem as wrong as the intention of some women, men, and/or couples; I find it promoting all reason if it seems in the best interest of the child, but cannot agree with using it as a form of birth control (having multiple procedures due to not utilizing proper protection and precaution).
In essence, for me, it entirely depends on the aim and intention of people involved, making what may seem the best result for the child, which here lies the controversy of who advocates for the child: the parent(s), a religious text, health care professionals, etc.
i joined the pro-life minstry in Jesus Youth(a movement for catholic youths...turning international hope u've heard of it)...so as a part of our introduction we were taken to women who had
1)chose to abort under normal circumstances...proper delivery, normal child, proper family income, and two or less other kids in the family...
2)were forced to do so, improper pregnancy, risk to life either of the baby or the mother, pregnancy due to sexual harrasment or pre-marital sex
and it was terrible to hear them speak, coz the latter group could cry their hearts out, and you'd cry with them but the first group...nothing really seemed to bother them.
do u find anything wrong with abortion in case of a rape? or an unmarried gurl aborting a child....(i mean anyways u know how people will look at the child when he/she grows up...)
the