1984 + The Handmaids Tale

Leandra Barnes: Class Discussion Substituton

There were several aspects within the section of Part Two: I-V that intriqued me. One of which was my suprise concerning the "dark haired girl" aka Julia. I believe her character as a whole is an accuate representation of majority of the Party people within 1984. Although she is young and overly involved in organizations such as the "Junior Anti-Sex League" and the junior spies, she still completely loathes the society and only rebels against it in secret. "She only questioned the teachings of the Party when they in some way touched upon her own life," suggesting that she would in no ways be interested in changing parts of the society that did not directly affect her. Because of this, i beleive her to be a coward, like all other members of the Party. She disagrees with its principles, but merely puts on a front while she secretly indulges in her desires. Her cowardice is also evident while she is talking about her first love affair:

"She had her first love affair when she was sixteen, with a Party member of sixty who later committed suicide to avoid arreest. 'And a good job too,' said Julia. 'Otherwise they'd have had my name out of him when he confessed'" (131)

Julia was completely indifferent when the man that she supposedly "loved," just as she had claimed to "love" Winston in her secret note (108). She was only looking out for herself, signifying that in a society such as this, even the profound word "love" can become corrupted. Julia's character as a whole is also an example of how it would be possible for such a horrible society to come about in the first place. Her character embodies numbness and indifference. While Winston tried to explain to her the wrongs that the Record Department committed, "she did not feel the abyss opening beneath her at the thought of lies becoming truths" (154). She simply did not care because it had nothing to do with her. Julia even went as far as to say that she would rather take risks "only for something worth while, not for bits of old newspaper" (155). Frankly, those bits of old newspaper represented evidence and truth, meaning that Julia has no value for truth, prefering to risk her life several times over for sex. Because Julia, like the others in the sciety, are numb and indifferent, they make no effort to rebel or change things, merely continuing the cycle. In order to lead a revolution, you must be willing to sacrifice yourself for a better future, for people that you will have never met or known. However, in a society in which people, are "no interested in the next generation" and only able to focus on themselves, such an overthrowing of power will never occur (156). The majority is unable to understand, to grasp the concept, and because of that, "the Party [is able to impose] itself most sucessflly on people incapable of understanding it" (156).

Alot of other things I found include the following:

The reoccurence of themonth of May reminded me of May Day in HMT. Spring signifies birth and love, representing its purpose in both novels.

Role of Language: Julia uses language as a way of rebeling against the Party. "Julia...seemed unable to mentin the Party, and especially the Inner Party, without using the kind of words tha you saw chalked up in dripping alleyways...It was merely one symptom of her revolt against the Party and all its ways" (122). This parallels to Offred's ability to use words in Scrabble as a way of rebeling against what is forbidden.

Winston's fear of rats out "of all horrors in the world" could be paralleled to a fear of a person who is a rat, in the sense that they "rat" other people out (144).

Parallel to GOST: But you could not have pure love or pure lust nowadays. No emotion was pure, because everything was mixed up with fear and hatred. Their embrace had been a battle, the climax a victory. It was a blow struck against the Party. It was a political act" (126).

When Winston began meeting with Julia on a regular basis, he felt that "the process of life had ceased to be intolerable [and] had no longer any impuse to make faces at the telescreen or shout curses at the top of his voice" just like Offred di when she began seeing Nick (150). Also, "he did not touch the diary during those days," his means of rebellion, just like Offred refused to spy on the Commander for May Day due to her obsession with Nick (111).

oh yah....and Syme DID vanish :P

hi can anyone please help me out in this title.i really dont know how to start it off and i need some help with some quotes refering to the characters searching for love and images associated. can someone please help me out thank you

I HAD WRITTEN THIS POST LAST WEEK on Saturday on paper! Another post I had written was basically described on pg. 164 (about how the society was so hypocritical b/c Winston worked in the Ministry of Truth yet he was falsifying all of the information to uphold the omnipotent status of Big Brother.

***WARNING: SPOILER! Don't read until have finished the book!
Also, the structure of the slogan resembled that of a pyramid. Perhaps I'm reading too much into it, yet it seems that even the pyramid-like structure reflects even how it's related to the society's hierarchial structure (which resembles a pyramid in the sense that the base of the pyramid is quite larger than the top in terms of population, since the proles make up ~85% of the population if I remember correctly. The Outer Party members make are the second largest....the inner party members make up the top of the pryamid w/ the least amount of the overall population being in this party. In relation, the last line of the slogan is the longest of the lines.....then freedom is slavery is the second longest. War is peace is the shortest....this could be just a coincidence, but the war is peace aspect has to do w/ the Ministry of Peace. Those working at the ministry could be part of the Inner party, however that is not known for certain. Yet, O'Brien reveals to Winston that the wars are a tactic to rid the society in the book that he wrote and gave to Winston. Therefore, it is probable that either he has once worked for the Ministry of Peace or that his Inner Party friends work there. Once again though, this is not certain. This slogan works in the favor of the Inner Party members as I've discussed above. Freedom is slavery seems to describes the outer party members like wilson because they have limited freedom in comparison to both the inner party members (who get to have 30 mins. of privacy by turning off the telescreen) and the proles (who have access to the past memories...and other forbidden items). These members are enslaved due to their lack of freedom. Lastly, ignorance is strength describes the proles for they are ignorant of the power they possess as Winston reveals (if there is hope, it lies in the proles. However, the proles don't realize the power of numbers and the fact that they could overthrow the gov. since they consist of more than half of the pop). Both the inner party members and the outer party members are not ignorant becuase as seen w/ O'Brien and Winston's knowledge of the oppression imposed on the people. Now, why would these two structures coincide? In fact, the Ministries that enforce each aspect of the slogan (which I had noticed b4 the book had revealed to us that the ministry of love does quite the opposite of "loving" through torturing people=doublethink!). The ministries also have a pyramidal structure too!! Hmm..so many similarities in the structure being pryamidal could possibly be a method to symbolically demonstrate the stratified power and wealth at the top. However, I believe it is used to exemplify the common dystopian element of the hierarchy based society which is also seen in The Handmaid's Tale.

war is peace
freedom is slavery
ignorance is strength

WARNING SPOILER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I thought it was really interesting when Winston discovered what was really meant by a place without darkness: “In this place, he knew instinctively, the lights would never be turned out. It was a place with no darkness: he saw now why O’Brian had seemed to recognize the allusion” (Orwell 229). This passage refers to the prison that Winston is kept in. At first when they had mentioned a place without darkness, I had thought that it meant a place where they could be open to talk about things and to not be monitored by the Party. Instead as Winston discovers it is a place where everything comes out and he can not hide behind the darkness any longer. As seen in the Handmaid’s Tale night and darkness often provide a sort of cover for the character to disobey all the rules and be free to think how he/she wants to think. Now that Winston is stuck in the prison he is know longer free and will never again no the feeling of hiding something from the Party.

Another interesting passage was when Winston was talking with Parsons who had also recently been arrested for speaking badly of Big Brother in his sleep. Parsons tells Winston, “Do you know what I am going to say to them when I go up before the tribunal ‘Thank you’ I’m going to say, ‘thank you for saving me before it was too late’” (Orwell 233). This passage shows the kind of mentality that the Party imposes on its people. It breaks them down until they have no thought in their mind except for their love of Big Brother. This foreshadows the reason why they keep Winston alive for so long. I find it amazing how they can get people to feel guilty about saying something in their sleep, but the people who actually commit true crimes get treated a lot better. Then again that is how the society works political crime or crimes towards the Party are thought worse than normal ones.

Also what was really weird was the relationship between Winston and O’Brian during Winston’s imprisonment. Winston described O’Brian as “the tormenter, he was the protector, he was the inquisitor, he was the friend” (Orwell 244). Even though, O’Brian spends his time torturing Winston, Winston still finds some kind of comfort from him. When Winston believed that O’Brian was a part of some kind of resistance, O’Brian became very important to him, because he finally found hope that there were others who thought bad about the Party and were actually willing to do something about it. However, when Winston realizes that O’Brian was not on his side he still hung on to O’Brian, because he still wanted to believe there was some hope left. This is what makes it so sad, when Winston finally gives his hope and mind up and finds love for Big Brother.

One passage that was really creepy was on page 256 when O’Brian was talking to Winston and tells him, “Never again will you be capable of ordinary human feeling. Everything will be dead inside you. Never again will you be capable of love, or friendship, or joy of living, or laughter, or curiosity, or courage, or integrity. You will be hollow. We shall squeeze you empty, and then we shall fill you with ourselves” (Orwell 256). This passage shows an important concept of the governments in dystopian societies. As long as the rulers ensure that its people have no way of thinking their own thoughts or feeling their own feelings. Feelings are an important part of why rebellions and revolutions occur. They are a huge part of why people rise up against their rulers it gives them a system of right and wrong and makes them angry when they feel as though they are not being treated fairly. By depriving the people of their own feelings they become mindless drones and blind followers of the Party, which is exactly what the Party wants. This is shown finally at the end of the novel when O’Brian’s threat comes true for Winston and all he feels is what the Party wants him to feel.

**I completely forgot about my previous posts about these dsytopian novels (of course there are some modifications know that I’ve finished the book :).

Here are some interesting things I’ve noticed in 1984:
On page 6, Winston discusses his room: “It was partly the unusual geography of the room that had suggested to him the thing he was now about to do” (Orwell 6). I never really thought about it before, however is the geography of the room a false security blanket for those trying to rebel? Is it a strategic ploy by the Party members to bring out the rebels such as Winston. If so, then this would explain the fact that they know the fears of the those that rebel as seen with the scene in room 101 where the rats were on the other side of the wall (e.g. Winston’s greatest fear). This is explained by the possibility that by bringing out the rebels, the Party members can scrutinize their every move to learn of their fears (the others are left alone which of course is both productive and ingenious).

In class today (which was a while back), we discussed the importance of the diary--specifically the fact that it could be symbol of hope that there actually will be a rebellion in Winston. However, is it really a symbol of hope for the future? Winston states that he was writing the diary “[f]or the future, for the unborn” (Orwell 7). However, through examining the assertion that “[w]ho controls the past…controls the future: who controls the present controls the past” (35), it seems to be that the Party is the future for they control the past (through memory swipes, limit on artifacts of past, since the only antiquary we knew turned out to be a member of the Thought Police) and they control the present (limited rights, privacy, and privileges for the subordinate classes). Thus, they must control the future according to the assertion (also it makes since because the control of the present is essentially control of the future b/c say the Party is dominant at 3:33 p.m. and 28 seconds…well, now that time has past so therefore they control the past at all times. The Party is still controlling due to the fact that the control the present…well, the present at this precise moment is the future in relation to the time 3:33 p.m. and 28 seconds. Therefore, they are always controlling).

In addition, we later find out when Winston is in Room 101 that “if you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face-forever” (267). Therefore, those of the future generation will not be able to see according to their own free will for there is a boot on their face “forever.” Therefore, the diary will be useless in the sense that the vision necessary to read it will not be available to those of the future since they are controlled.

The hope that Winston has though lies in the proles. Yet, “[u]ntil [the proles] become conscious they will never rebel, and until after they have rebelled they cannot become conscious” (70). Meaning, it is never going to happen as O’Brien points out on page 261. Once again, the concept of hope is a ruined cause.

Also, another interesting correlation the “place” where Winston and O’Brien meet, “in the place in where there is no darkness…[which was] the imagined future” (104). In this imagined future, Winston hopefully imagined the concept of rebellion occurring. However, towards the end, the reader learns that Winston in fact knew what the future held for him as he stated to O’Brien for it held his vaporization (“We are dead. Our only true life is in the future” (176)).

So, why would Winston do such things when he knew the outcome was going to be quite the opposite of what he hoped for?
Perhaps this is seen by Offred’s wise comment that “people will do anything rather than admit that their lives have no meaning. No use, that is. No plot” (Atwood 215).
:yawnb:

In class today (which was a while back), we discussed the importance of the diary--specifically the fact that it could be symbol of hope that there actually will be a rebellion in Winston. However, is it really a symbol of hope for the future? Winston states that he was writing the diary “[f]or the future, for the unborn” (Orwell 7). However, through examining the assertion that “[w]ho controls the past…controls the future: who controls the present controls the past” (35), it seems to be that the Party is the future for they control the past (through memory swipes, limit on artifacts of past, since the only antiquary we knew turned out to be a member of the Thought Police) and they control the present (limited rights, privacy, and privileges for the subordinate classes). Thus, they must control the future according to the assertion (also it makes since because the control of the present is essentially control of the future b/c say the Party is dominant at 3:33 p.m. and 28 seconds…well, now that time has past so therefore they control the past at all times. The Party is still controlling due to the fact that the control the present…well, the present at this precise moment is the future in relation to the time 3:33 p.m. and 28 seconds. Therefore, they are always controlling).

In addition, we later find out when Winston is in Room 101 that “if you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face-forever” (267). Therefore, those of the future generation will not be able to see according to their own free will for there is a boot on their face “forever.” Therefore, the diary will be useless in the sense that the vision necessary to read it will not be available to those of the future since they are controlled.

The hope that Winston has though lies in the proles. Yet, “[u]ntil [the proles] become conscious they will never rebel, and until after they have rebelled they cannot become conscious” (70). Meaning, it is never going to happen as O’Brien points out on page 261. Once again, the concept of hope is a ruined cause.

Also, another interesting correlation the “place” where Winston and O’Brien meet, “in the place in where there is no darkness…[which was] the imagined future” (104). In this imagined future, Winston hopefully imagined the concept of rebellion occurring. However, towards the end, the reader learns that Winston in fact knew what the future held for him as he stated to O’Brien for it held his vaporization (“We are dead. Our only true life is in the future” (176)).

So, why would Winston do such things when he knew the outcome was going to be quite the opposite of what he hoped for?
Perhaps this is seen by Offred’s wise comment that “people will do anything rather than admit that their lives have no meaning. No use, that is. No plot” (Atwood 215).
:yawnb:

This is probably a HUGE stretch but is O’Brien actually Goldstein? Was he allowed to remain in the society because he acted as Goldstein to stir up hatred against another person other than Big Brother? Goldstein did seem to have mysteriously escaped and disappeared (Orwell 11-12) just as O’Brien managed to get out of Room 101. O’Brien does discuss the fact that he can get his face changed: “We may be obliged to give him a new identity. His face, his movements, the shape of his hands, the color of his hair-even his voice would be different….Our surgeons can alter people beyond recognition. Sometimes it is necessary” (173). Also, when Winston first mentioned the book, he stated that “Goldstein was the author and which circulated clandestinely here and there. It was a book without a title” (13). Well, all of the things are true about the book that had no title being secretly handed around with the philosophy of Goldstein embellished within its pages. So, perhaps the author of the book could truly Goldstein, which is O’Brien along with some other people. Once again, I know it’s a stretch but it could be true since the bombings, the wars, etc. all seem to be fabricated. So, why not the true identity of Goldstein?

***My question is why did Oceania survive and not Gilead?
I think it’s due to the fact that the control of Oceania was ultimately more than Gilead due to their tactics of constant pain:“‘How does one man assert his power over another, Winston?’ [asked O’brien]. Winston thought. ‘By making him suffer,’ he said. ‘Exactly. By making him suffer….Power is in inflicting pain and humiliation” (266). In Gilead, the physical pain inflictions seemed to be quite low than those in Oceania, since those in Oceania had a special room dedicated into humiliating the victim and inflicting a substantial amount of physical pain on the victim. It is through these inflictions of pain that those in Oceania can get inside of you, which is the ultimate factor that leads in the victory of the Party unlike Gilead’s fate (since Gilead wasn’t really able to get inside of you marked by Offred’s thoughts and memories that were not changed at all unless it was by her command. This means she has power over her mind, but Winston didn’t as seen by the fact that he agreed that “2+2=5” (290). The influence of constant pain is also seen by Offred’s comment: “But who can remember pain, once it’s over? All that remains of it is a shadow, not it the mind even, in the flesh. Pain marks you, but too deep to see. Out of sight, out of mind” (Atwood 125). In Gilead, physical pain is not endured on a massive scale where it is in Oceania. Therefore, pain in those of Oceania is in sight, in mind, which leads to the Party’s prevalence. Through the strict control of the mind, the Party members are able to ensure their power will prevail for they are able to control the present and thus the past thus the future (refer to quote on page 35 in Orwell’s 1984 for the actual quote).

Hi there. I have been set an essay question by my teacher and i have to discuss the similarities and differences of the presentation of the theme of freedom in 1984 and the handmaids tale.

I would be grateful for anyone who could shed some light on this as i am stuck with where to even begin :(

Thanks guys :p

HELP!!!URGENT wiv comparison of dystopia in 1984 and The Handmaids Tale


Hi ppl i hav an essay q? -'hw do the novelists use the dystopian form to reflect the respective concerns of their societies?'
in the Handmaids tale by margaret atwood and 1984 by george orwell.

am stuk on what exactly to ryt so wud b highly grateful if sumone cud help...fankoo

or ne1 can email me at [email protected]

thanx again

How long does it have to be? And if you read Orwell's 1984 you'll know the answer to that quite easily. To write any sort of literature one must have prior knowledge to the subject, even if its only a minor glimpse. You could argue that Orwell was stating how Russia would end up if its Communist regime would continue, but that is why he wrote "Animal Farm."

I'm not familiar with the other novel, but from reading Orwell's works I do believe that he took Stalin's communist regime into mind and placed it into 1984. I'm not going to give you the outright answer because that isn't what analyzing literature is about, nor am I doing your homework.

Oceania survived because the book was written by a better writer, G. Orwell, then Gilead, by M. Atwood.

woah! i wasnt expectin u 2lol i jst askd for help...mailny stuk wiv jst how to start it realy..and thanx neways for the help

Just as Rob Fusion said, you should read up on how society is like during the time of writing. For the Handmaid's Tale, I suggest reading up on the Feminist Movements and the right wing politics.