Coops Reaction Too-- Two

Hey everybody, sorry about being a little late with this one :(. I was on vacation. Anyways here are my thoughts on irony and themes in the Oedipus plays:

First off, I don't understand Taylor’s whole black and white mindset theme. I'm not sure what "extremes" you are talking about! Please elaborate if you will.
What I think is that in these plays people are categorized, branded with a "good" or "bad" person label, and they can't do anything to change it. Oedipus is an outcast, to be avoided and regarded with revulsion, even though he had saved the city and loved it with his whole heart such a short period before. Even though his good deeds are more numerous, it seems the evil deeds carry a heavier stain, and Oedipus can't overcome this label, because people only see the bad things that he has done.
A theme in these plays is one of human nature. When doubt arises, Oedipus, being curious must probe into his heritage, and know the truth even if it hurts. The truth does hurt, it tears apart his family and his life, and he even punishes himself more severely than others would have. We watch Oedipus' downfall, and then witness how he becomes heroic once again in death.
Also, I want to say wow, Katy. I totally agree with your view that there is always a choice. The idea of predestination appeals to my imagination, but only because it makes a good story. It is the whole plot of this story – a tragic hero driven out by the fulfillment of his destiny. Like David said “If fate rules someones life and predestination rules supreme than why even attempt to live?" Destiny seems to work in books, but I do not believe that it is applicable to real, everyday life. Katy and Dave, rock on!! :banana:
As for irony, which example would you like? Sophocles is a master at incorporating irony. It seems to be what makes these plays entertaining after so many years. Everyone has made good points about irony in The Oedipus Cycle These are my new points:
-Oedipus curses King Laios’ murderer on page 14 and does not leave himself exempt, “And as for me, this curse applies no less…” This is verbal and situational irony because it turns out that Oedipus is the cursed one and murderer, and so these words will come back to haunt him when he learns the truth.
-Oedipus says he will avenge Laios like he is his son (page 14). Oops, newsflash- YOU ARE HIS SON! :smash:
-This last point I am not sure if it is verbal irony, but I noticed that when the Messenger brought his good news that King Polybos of Corinth died, it is actually bad news. Hello, it is the only father that Oedipus knew! This news is also good in another way because it means Oedipus did not kill his father, which leads to the truth that Polybos isn't his dad!! Whew, if you can follow that I think you will see what i mean about verbal irony.

Yes, these are my thoughts, and I want to tell everyone that I hope you are living it up, because summer is flying by! Have a good one.
ASHLEY HEHL

Oedipus becomes blind to his own fate, and then in turn blames others. But also, each and every character has his/her own ladder of fate that bounces off of Oepidpus' life. Mainly his family, being his children. They watch and see how their father's life is ultimately destroyed by not only his physical blindness but also the blindness within his heart and soul. I felt that the Gods did control most of Oedipus' life, because before he was born he wasn't allowed the choice of whether or not to kill his father, is was predestined for him. However, the result and aftermath of the death of Oedipus' father was Oedipus' own choice of becoming blind, and living the life that he did.

Jonathan Hoyer

Wow, this is some awsome discussion! Now I'm wishing I would have posted sooner, all the good points have been taken :(

Anyways, I agree with Katy on Fate vs. Choice. All the different characters have many choices to make. It's not like they are robots programmed by the gods to follow one, inescapable path throughout their entire life (Well, unless you count that they aren't real people and the play was written that way, but that's besides the point). It seems like lots of characters made the wrong choices, rather than having bad prophecies. I think that all the prophecies really meant nothing on their own. They were just words, nothing more. What really matters is how the characters themselves INTERPRET those prophecies. Katy made an excellent point: What would have happened had Oedipus' parents never heard the prophecy, or ignored it? Probably everything would have turned out just fine. I mean, if the characters REALLY believe in the Gods, shouldn't they trust in them to guide their lives the right way? Oedipus boldly proclaimed on Page 9 "You shall see how I stand by you...to avenge the city and the city's god." I think he needs to practice what he preaches by actually listening to the city's god for once, or at least the prophet of the city's god. If he, and every character really, put their trust in the gods, instead of themselves, everything would have probably turned out all right. But because they relied on themselves, and made their own poor choices, they ended up dooming themselves. Who knows, the gods could have even been punishing them for not trusting in their divine power! But could any of this have happened if all actions were just "because of fate," and none of them have any free will? Of course not. All actions of humans begin with free will.

And so I'll end this with a really cool quote from the sixth Harry Potter book, which I think really parallels what I'm saying. I'll try and keep it as unrevealing as possible, in case some of you haven't read the book, and don't want it spoiled:

"He singled you out as the person who would be most dangerous to him--and in doing so, he MADE you the person who would be most dangerous to him!"
"But it comes to the same end, doesn't it?"
"No it doesn't! You are setting too much store by the prophecy! If he had never heard of the prophecy, would it have been fulfilled? Would it have meant anything? Of course not! Do you think every prophecy has been fulfilled?"

(P.S. -- I know that this post doesn't answer the original prompt. I just wanted to put down my thoughts about Fate vs. Choice. My answer post is coming soon :nod:)

Jonathan Hoyer

Okay, I'm back, here's the rest of my post.
Throughout the novel it seems like one theme that keeps coming up is the fallibility of humans. Oedipus, King Laios, Iocaste, Creon, all of them thought, "Oh, I'm such a good and smart person. :angel:" But they all were proven wrong, that they really weren't as good as they thought. Oedipus thought he was a good ruler, and had the wits to avenge his city of the curse. But he ultimately finds out that it was HIS problems, HIS actions that were the cause of the curse. He wasn't as good as he thought he was. King Laios and Iocaste also made a grave mistake. They thought they were doing the right thing in sending Oedipus away, so as not to cause pain to themselves, and to him. But BECUASE of their error in judgment, Oedipus just comes right back to them and, ultimately, kills them both. Even Creon (in Antigone) thought he was being honorable and patriotic by punishing the "treacherous" Polyneices and letting his body rot. But, surprise surprise, that very action caused his son and his son's fiancé to die. So much for "good judgment. :brickwall" This just shows that no human, no matter how great or small, is perfect. Everyone screws up and fails; it's only natural to do so. The problem with the characters in the novel is that they thought they WERE perfect, or pretty near to it. Their arrogance, as well as their fallibility, caused events to turn out like they did.

This novel is full to the brim of irony. Even though people have posted lots of examples of it, there’s so much in this book that we’ve just scratched the surface! Here's a few new ones I found:

• Page 21, “This prophet fraud—why he is no more clairvoyant than I am!” Oedipus accuses Teiresias of being a false prophet and having no more skill at phophecy than he himself does. This is dramatic irony, because in Oedipus at Colonus, Oedipus actually DOES become clairvoyant and makes correct prophecies, big ones too. So Oedipus’ accusation against Tieresias is actually a compliment!
• Page 14, “Now I…Having his bed, begetting children there upon his wife, as he would have, had he lived—their son would have been my children’s brother…” Oedipus is lamenting for King Laios in this scene. He talks about having children with Laios’ wife as if it were his duty to do so. This is dramatic irony because he already fears sleeping with his mother and having children with her. And yet, the thing he fears the most in life he boldly proclaims having done, all because he doesn’t know the truth! It kind of parallels what David said, “If you fear sleeping with your mother, then how about you don’t sleep with anyone! :smash:” Also, he talks about Iocaste’s son being his children’s brother. Well Oedipus, guess what? Since you ARE her son, you ARE your children’s brother!
• Page 31, “Would any sane man prefer Power, with all a king’s anxieties, to that same power and grace of sleep? Certainly not I. I have never longed for the king’s power…” Creon has a pretty cool speech here about his reason for staying true to Oedipus. However, it is ironic because he keeps saying he doesn’t want to be king, yet in Antigone he becomes king and uses (and perhaps abuses) the king’s power, which he said he never wanted! I’m not quite sure whether this is verbal or dramatic irony, because I can’t be sure at this point whether Creon actually DOES want the king’s power or not.
• On page 69-ish is the scene where Iocaste kills herself and Oedipus gouges out his eyes. All throughout the play Oedipus has been searching for the unknown murderer and his past. He devoted all his energy to it and wished for nothing else. But now that he finally found out the answer to both questions, he wished he hadn’t, because in doing so he cause his wife to kill herself with guilt. This is an example of “cosmic irony,” or irony that reaches tragic proportions, like death. The answer he sought for the most turned out to be the answer he wanted the least!

Have you finished the last Harry Potter book, Jonathan? It was awesome! I loved it. Way to link the whole idea about the prophecies! I thought of Oedipus when I read it too!
Anyway, I was reading through a book of sonnets I have and I found one that made me think of another theme for The Oedipus Cycle. I don't know if it is necessarily the most important one, and it might be a little far-fetched, but I don't suppose any theme could be called outright wrong because it all depends on the interpretation of the reader. The sonnet is called 'Ozymandias ' and it is written by Percy Bysshe Shelley. I'll write it out so you guys will know what I am talking about when I refer to it.

Ozymandias
I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert...Near them, on the sand,
Half-sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed:
And on the pedestal these words appear:
"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

This reminded me of a quote that I had highlighted in Oedipus at Colonus : "Time watches all things steadily." I've thought about it a bit, and I've decided that a theme for all three plays could be the continual rise and fall of empires, of societies, of rulers, of families...of individual people. Life goes through a continuous cycle, soaring to the greatest heights and then sinking to the lowest depths, again and again and again for all eternity. And throughout it all Time continues, unscathed by contemporary events owing to the fact that it has seen the same cycle over and over since the beginning of History. Nothing can surprise or impress Time - it remains victorious and unmoved by all. Even mighty rulers such as Ozymandias (or Oedipus) are lost in the deserts of Time. Oedipus' family is an example: his parents, hisself, Eteocles, Polyneices, Antigone, Haemon, his mother...all had their moments of glory and then were buried in Time as new events unfolded and others after them rose and fell. Greatness is a fickle thing - often won so easily and just as soon lost. And still, Time watches all things steadily.

Oh, and about Predestination: I am seriously critical about the whole idea. I just can't believe that our lives are already planned out and decided before we are ever born. I would like to think that my own actions are going to be what makes my life the way it is, or else why even bother? What if every single person thought that their life was already planned out for them so they just sat around on their butts all day waiting for it (life) to come along? No, I definitely don't agree with it. We can obviously see throughout our lives that we have choices to make, and that those choices affect us directly.

By the way, are we going to get any feedback on these posts? Maybe when school starts?