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Originally Posted by
Virgil
You know I thought it was a stretch at first (valley for trenches is a stretch but everything else fits) but you've convinced me Janine. Lawrence is bringing the war to the English countryside.
Really, that surprises me; I thought you would see it right away, Virgil. I especially was struck by the dark rocks protruding out of the white; also the mention of wire in the context of the bare trees or winter in the snow. I also thought of "Women in Love" and the ending. Everything pointed to death and if not a universal wasteland then a personal reflection of how Lawrence was viewing it all at that time. This was the period in which he and Frieda were driven out of Cornwall because the English police thought they were involved in spying for the German side; of course it was preposterous, but Lawrence had to go against the board of examiners and he was mortified at this being literally 'layed bare' and humiliated, before the medical board for the draft; of course we all know he was exempt due to his bad lungs to report to military duty; it still must have been fresh in his mind when he wrote this story. Now I am wonder what jinjang quoted in his post about being layed bare to influences I wanted to escape. That could also be applied to some degree, to the ordeal Lawrence had personally had to endure; which he later wrote about in "Kangaroo", his next novel.
I requote:
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And the snow seemed to lay me bare to influences I wanted to escape.
Snow and frozen land always represented to Lawrence the negation of life and of death - think back to our discussion on 'The Man Who Loved Islands'. Also, the final scenes in WIL. Think how Lawrence gravitated towards the south and the sun and it's life giving forces - think of our discussion on 'Sun'.
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Yes, I do think you're right.
If you read it over a few times you will see it clearly. I didn't see the full correlation on first reading either. I just thought the scene beautifully written and really incredibly graphic with the contrast of white and black.
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I do think the peacock's loss of plumage is significant. Yes you make good points here.
Yes, in winter and in a wasteland he is diminished, as he would be in wartime. Man is diminished now by war, to Lawrence's way of thinking. Doesn't Alfred come home with a wound, a limp. Now his wife will further diminish his manhood no doubt with her witch-like manor and resentments towards him. Perhaps in this way you are right, now the narrator sees Alfred in the flesh and he being man can relate to his maleness and his his wounded manhood. I think during this story the narrator feels something for each of the characters - the female first but he is wary and then the male because of the male bondage element. I think both are temporary and as I said before this story is a sort of incident or slice of life even. Not doubt soon after this he and his wife leave England and never see Maggie and Alfred again. Even though the narrator (Lawrence) didn't go to the war front; he felt this deep hatred and humiliation in front of the authorities and the war medical board; which is carried over in the pathos and death qualities, when viewing this valley scene shrouded in deep snow. Indeed to L, it is the 'valley of death.'
It does and perhaps more will be revealed further along to relate to this part and these deeper meanings. Wow, Lawrence is amazing, isn't he?
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Not strange to me. You all think that lawrence is sympathetic to Maggie, but I don't. Lawrence blames women for the war, or at least for the state of affairs at home during and after the war. Men went off and died in the war but women stayed homed and had incredible power, power they never had before, and they used that power to reshape society. Lawrence didn't like that and thought women were to blame for the shape of modern life. I know it's hard to believe, but that's Lawrence's mindset.
No, you have me wrong. I don't think he is totally sympathetic to anyone really, not for any duration of time. I think he is temporarily sympathetic to each at different junctures in the story. I think basically, the narrator remains neutral at the end. I don't believe Lawrence blames women for the war. Where are you getting that from, Virgil? If you look at WIL and realise that's also a war novel, war themes throughout and in the background (subtext), tell me how women in general are responsible for the war? Boy, I am confused on this one. In England, women stayed home and helped the war effort. Did you ever hear of the Land Girls program? They didn't have it so easy. The worked the farms, while the men were off in the war. I sort of take offense to the idea that the woman started the war. I think your information on all this is a bit off. I don't agree; women were not responsible at this time for modern life. I don't believe Lawrence believed that. I read too many biographies of the author to flatly dispute that. Women were just coming into their own. If you watch old WWI and WWII films on Britian; the woman served their country at home very admirably, just as they did in America, and they cared for their homes and their children.
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What I also found interesting about the snow storm is its depth. I have never heard of England experiencing that kind of snow storm, either in literature or in the news. England for the most part has a very moderate climate for a norhtern Eurpean nation. Does anyone know how likely this kind of snow storm is in England? My thought was that it was very unnatural.
Yes, and that would be interesting to research. I think you may have hit on something there or maybe while Lawrence and Frieda occuppied a homestead in that part of England it was a particularly harsh storm or winter. But maybe the unnatural aspect lent itself to this story perfectly. Of course, it does.
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Originally Posted by
jinjang
This part made me smile…
I agree with Janine about the negative war-influenced feelings the narrator is having that morning. He may be feeling he got caught in a skirmish between a couple. Did the author participate in the war – was he a soldier? If the snow was giving him the gloom, what does the sentence below imply?
“And the snow seemed to lay me bare to influences I wanted to escape.”
jinjang, I basically addressed your question in Virgil's post, when I brought up the place the author had experienced in his life personally and what his thought process might be in relation to the war. I like this statement of yours, jinjang, "He may be feeling he got caught in a skirmish between a couple." I really believe that is the case. He got dragged into this whole affair with the neighboring couple.
No, Lawrence did not participate in the war, however he was humiliated before the medical board for his physical appearance, by now he was very thin and weakened; he had nearly died of a severe bout with pnemonia right before writing this story; he had had it before and more than a few near brushes with death. He had bad lungs all his life, which he referred to as his broncials. In reality, it was most likely a predisposition to full-fledged TB, which he was finally diagnosed with in Mexico several years later. Lawrence died in his early 40's. You can read a short biography on his life on this site.
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What kind of influence he is trying to guard against? I originally thought that he was fighting the attraction he had toward her. This ambiguity appears to me that the author is intentionally leading us to several directions. I could interpret the whole paragraph this way: Seeing Maggie’s unhappiness, he meant to alleviate her gloom by hiding the truth as we sometimes do in reality. Now this heavy snow with its negative influence is forcing him to think against the female group. Far-fetched?
No, not far-fetched at all. I am wondering about this statement and coming up with a several different explanations or interpretations. I think I aired most of them in Virgil's post and in here in the beginning. I don't think it inaccurate to say that the narrator wavers throughout the story with sympathies for all the characters; perhaps the only one he stays consistent with is poor Joey, although he remarks at one point that he is somewhat afraid of him.
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Given Maggie’s request of reading the letter was sudden, his original intention could have been benevolent but his final feeling may have turned to sympathize with Alfred. Or he had the contradictory feelings all along as I have been having.
Yes, I agree; I think his sympathising wavers; at the end I think he is neutral observer of what has transpired. He leaves the scene and what more can it all mean to him?
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It is definitely unnatural. They just had a snowstorm in February this year and the news said it hadn’t happened in two decades. The unnatural snowstorm may mean the whole situation with Maggie and Alfred is unnatural due to the war. The narrator may have felt maladroit to interfere between a couple and it has been nagging on him.
Good point you are both making. The description is seemingly very unworldly and unnatural as well. It's not your typical cozy pretty snow scene, is it?
Left that last part for Dark Muse to answer.
