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Originally Posted by
Nossa
Towards the end of the story, anything human, or better say anything 'alive' was repulsive to him. The fishermen, his car, the sheep he had, all were a source of disgust and contempt to him.
Nossa, Yes, interesting, how the man became repulsed by the sight of things that had at first delighted him, such as the sheep, etc. It seems to now the case that he is seeing more realistically, not through 'rose colored spectacles', as they say; now he does not like what he sees and this breeds discontentment.
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Somehow, after I finished the story, I felt that Lawrence is pro being involved in the world and living with other people. He showed gradually, as Virgil stated, that being isolated from the world ends up with despair, and even madness (when the man saw the heads of the seals swimming in, and he was frightened, thinking they were human beings). I also believe that by being alone and away, this even kills natural human feelings, like love. It's shown in his relationship with Flora that it became a mere pulse of desire, nothing more and nothing less. Nothing in thier life together was a show of love, it was 'mechanical'. He only married her because she was giving birth to his child.
I don't think Lawrence ever was 'pro-being involved in the world'. He had to live in the real world and he had to deal with publishers and business matters, true, but he always looked to a new world. He was replused by many things he saw going wrong in society. Strangely enough his good friend, Audous Huxley, wrote the novel "Brave New World".
Lawrence did not live conventionally at all. He lived appart and although he liked people emensely, and many liked and even loved him, he also set himself appart and isolated himself quite a few former friends; sometimes they set him asside or cut off relations with him; he has some enemies. I think, for one thing, artists and writers and creative people of this sensibility, do tend to isolate themselves. I am sure we all understand this story, perhaps better than most would.
I think Lawrence always was looking for the answer to how to attain a utopian world, even to the day he died. He even had a name for the society he planned at one time. He called it "Rananim" and there is even a "Rananim Society" online to discuss Lawrence's works and ideas.
Hi Dark Muse,
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"He wanted an island all of his own: not necessarily to be alone on it, but to make it a world of his own."
I think this means, one needs not be completely isolated, but even with the presence of other people, and even without seculding themselves completely from the rest of the world they can still create a place of thier own. A place of sancuary for themselves.
Yes, and one can achieve that realistically, and he might have from the beginning of the story, but this islander was not realistic.
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As it was seen in the first island, where before he brought over the people, becasue of his isolation he began to feel as if the island was haunted. So when he brought others to the island, they all thought of him as "Master" it was his island, they just co-habbited with him, or beneath him, but his pressence overhwelmed it more then any of thiers.
In a way his presense did overwhelm the others and yet in the begining they all seemed happy to serve him or work for him. I think the fact that he began to see the island differently, (winter months) he began to project a negative attitude on the whole existence of the island, and the people dwelling there. In other words his mood was infectious and nearly all vacated, eventually.
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"An island, if it is big enough, is no better than a continent. It has to be really quite small, before it feels like an island; and this story will show how tiny it has to be, before you can presume to fill it with your own personality."
This is an intresting passage, and as to the first part of it, I think it is true in a way for if an island is so big that you cannot see, or walk everyside of it, then it does not feel entierly like an island, for you cannot see where the water surrounds everyside of it, and it feels as if there are parts of it out of your reach.
Good point!
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To the last phase, I think that the story was about the islanders attempt to find an island which he could fill entierly with his own personality and which in a way, make it feel as if it was just an extension of himself, and yet his every attempt to do so, failed ultimately. Becasue there was always some other force, or pressence, that seemed to impede upon his efforts, as much as he had tried to completely isolate himself, there was no way he could aviod the intrusion of the world upon him.
I don't know if the 'intrusion of the world upon him' is why the island idea failed. I tend to think the islander brought on his disolution by his own actions and isolation.
I don't know either, if his main goal were to make the island an extension of himself. In a way the island would become part of him if he allowed it to; a harmony of sorts. He could have been happy perhaps, living with a few people, if all existed 'ideally' and not 'realistically'. He was looking to his island to be a perfect place, a 'Garden of Eden' paradise, to reside in and it was not so in reality. It became a human place. Human's have flaws. The island also had flaws.
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Originally Posted by
Dark Muse
I do not think the ghots at the begining really present the same threat as the dolphins do toward the end, but I wonder if perhpas, the ghots do not act as a foreshadow in some regaurds as what is to come? Or maybe they are a warning about discontentment, as ghosts are often viewed as restless or lost souls, and in someways the Island Owner can be seen in this light, as he goes from island to island searching for something that is not that, perhaps in the way a ghost my search for what they lost with thier life?
I did point out it was foreshadowing and I agree that they are different but I think they relate - the ghost images and the dolphins appearing as humans. Interesting thought - ghosts being lost souls. Afterall, isnt the islander a ghost himself at the end, being a lost soul. Is this what you are saying about his wanderings?
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Very good point comparing the Island to the Garden of Eden, and I works in more then one way, as just like Eden does not last forever, nor does the Utopia of the Island.
Well, prior to this story we discussed "Sun" and we had a similar connection symbolically to the 'Garden of Eden', so it was easy to think of this same concept and knowing it recurs often in Lawrence's novels and stories. Exactly, God drove Adam and Eve out of the garden of Eden after the snake tempted Eve with the apple....this ruined that utopia. In this story there is a passage that even mentions a 'snake' in this personification about the island:
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So autumn ended with rain, and winter came, dark skies and dampness and rain, but rarely frost. The island, your island, cowered dark, holding away from you. You could feel, down in the wet, sombre hollows, the resentful spirit coiled upon itself, like a wet dog coiled in gloom, or a snake that is neither asleep nor awake.
Interesting personification of the island, don't you think? The island.... “cowerd dark, holding away from you”, also “the resentful spirit coiled upon itself”, as though it were indeed a human or a distinct character in the story. I like the references of the ‘dog coiled in gloom' and the 'snake' that is neither asleep nor awake....a sort of non-living state, or limbo. This seems to reflect the state of this man.
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That is a very good point, and so true. There are in fact few people I think more reculsive then me, I truly do live very much like a genuine hermit. And one of the things that I really loved about this story, is the fact that it had always been a long time wish of my own that I could just have my own secluded island somewhere and only have who I choose on it, or have no one else at all on it. But even I still ventune into online communities even if I tend to aviod society as a whole.
I am also but I do like the communion with others and the interchange of ideas and thoughts and emotions. I think one cannot truly live without these. This story demonstrates that fact and is the moral or lesson imparted.
You may long, as many do, to esape the world and search for a perfect state of solitude, but if you do find your island, DM, I don't think they will have internet service. :lol:
Nossa,
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Originally Posted by Hira
"Also I wonder at the infinity passages. They are beautiful aren't they?"
I totally agree. I love this part:
I do too! I like this preceeding passage, in addition to the one below, that Hira quoted for us.
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….you felt that your island was a universe, infinite and old as the darkness; not an island at all, but an infinite dark world where all the souls from all the other bygone nights lived on, and the infinite distance was near.
Strangely, from your little island in space, you were gone forth into the dark, great realms of time, where all the souls that never die veer and swoop on their vast, strange errands. The little earthly island has dwindled, like a jumping-off place, into nothingness, for you have jumped off, you know not how, into the dark wide mystery of time, where the past is vastly alive, and the future is not separated off.
This is the danger of becoming an islander. When, in the city, you wear your white spats and dodge the traffic with the fear of death down your spine, then you are quite safe from the terrors of infinite time. The moment is your little islet in time, it is the spatial universe that careers round you.
....and what Hira quoted:
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But once isolate yourself on a little island in the sea of space, and the moment begins to heave and expand in great circles, the solid earth is gone, and your slippery, naked dark soul finds herself out in the timeless world, where the chariots of the co-called dead dash down the old streets of centuries, and souls crowd on the footways that we, in the moment, call bygone years. The souls of all the dead are alive again, and pulsating actively around you. You are out in the other infinity.
You said "Just beautiful!!" I agree, brilliant writing.... and this speaks volumes about time. I think it addresses the whole concept of ‘time’ or perhaps ‘time in relation to isolation’, which is embodied here in these statements. I found this so interesting, when I first read it, and the more so on re-reading it. I was thinking of how time chances, or is perceived differently by people who are in captivity or lose sleep or any number of instances. This whole passage also seems to me to question the idea of perception and how we view things from different vantage points. I think this part of the story is very perceptive and wonderful.
