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That's good. I don't have to rush things, then. Thanks for staying in the conversation this long. I know it's been kind of slow since everyone has disappeared, but it's a good story and I wanted to discuss it before the thread stopped again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Let me look over the last section of text and see if there is anything else left to add before we move on to the last part.
I have enjoyed it so far, even if the others all bailed. It is a good story.
Oh, good. I thought you were just humoring me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Anyway, here's the conclusion of the story:
Before I comment on the actual text here, I want to point out that nothing has really changed from the beginning of the story. This scene is identical to the one at the beginning. Chekhov even draws attention to that by repeating the exact wordings he used before (I'm assuming this is true in the original Russian). The scenes in between, then, are not really a progression, but explanation of her current state. She could have killed the baby last night just as easily as this night. The only reason we're given the record of her previous night and day is to better explain her psychological state later on. It's important to rehash then what we've learned. First, we know that she's delerious. From what we've seen of her daily routine, it's easy to see why. Second, we know that Varka isn't going to get to sleep if she follows her master's orders. Varka didn't get to sleep last night, so there isn't any reason to believe she will get to sleep this night. Third, we know from her history that she has never really controlled anything in her life. Circumstances have always required her to do things, and she has never made any decision in her life. We can say fairly that she isn't used to making decisions, and so will probably not be able to make a good choice when pushed too far. Lastly, it's become clear that Varka has lost whatever natural affection she might have had for the child or its parents.Quote:
But now, at last, the visitors have gone; the lights are put out, the master and mistress go to bed.
"Varka, rock the baby!" she hears the last order.
The cricket churrs in the stove; the green patch on the ceiling and the shadows from the trousers and the baby-clothes force themselves on Varka's half-opened eyes again, wink at her and cloud her mind.
"Hush-a-bye, my baby wee," she murmurs, "and I will sing a song to thee."
And the baby screams, and is worn out with screaming. Again Varka sees the muddy high road, the people with wallets, her mother Pelageya, her father Yefim. She understands everything, she recognises everyone, but through her half sleep she cannot understand the force which binds her, hand and foot, weighs upon her, and prevents her from living. She looks round, searches for that force that she may escape from it, but she cannot find it. At last, tired to death, she does her very utmost, strains her eyes, looks up at the flickering green patch, and listening to the screaming, finds the foe who will not let her live.
That foe is the baby.
She laughs. It seems strange to her that she has failed to grasp such a simple thing before. The green patch, the shadows, and the cricket seem to laugh and wonder too.
The hallucination takes possession of Varka. She gets up from her stool, and with a broad smile on her face and wide unblinking eyes, she walks up and down the room. She feels pleased and tickled at the thought that she will be rid directly of the baby that binds her hand and foot. . . . Kill the baby and then sleep, sleep, sleep. . . .
Laughing and winking and shaking her fingers at the green patch, Varka steals up to the cradle and bends over the baby. When she has strangled him, she quickly lies down on the floor, laughs with delight that she can sleep, and in a minute is sleeping as sound as the dead.
All of this we learn during the middle of the story; and, while it doesn't advance the story necessarily, it does build our understanding of Varka's character. Plus, it explains Varka's motives for killing the child.
I loved the way in which the end came around back to the begining, I thought that was a nice touch, and as you have mentioned, it does show the routine of her days, and how nothing will ever change for her.Quote:
The cricket churrs in the stove; the green patch on the ceiling and the shadows from the trousers and the baby-clothes force themselves on Varka's half-opened eyes again, wink at her and cloud her mind.
I have noticed several times throughout the story, it mentions the state of her mind, and how her mind is being clouded, or it said something before about how her brain was being affected.
I think this is meant as another way to build up sympathy for her, and show that when she does the deed, she really is not completly at fault, becasue she is not really thinking, she does not truly know what she is doing. It is not herself that is acting.
One thing I will critizie about this story, is the fact that it felt to me as if there was not any build up to the moment of her discovering that the baby is her foe. This part felt a bit rushed to me, but perhaps that is just me, but in one scentence it says how she cannot find the foe, and than a couple lines later she says it is the baby. When I was reading this story it felt a bit anti-climatic here.Quote:
And the baby screams, and is worn out with screaming. Again Varka sees the muddy high road, the people with wallets, her mother Pelageya, her father Yefim. She understands everything, she recognises everyone, but through her half sleep she cannot understand the force which binds her, hand and foot, weighs upon her, and prevents her from living. She looks round, searches for that force that she may escape from it, but she cannot find it. At last, tired to death, she does her very utmost, strains her eyes, looks up at the flickering green patch, and listening to the screaming, finds the foe who will not let her live.
That foe is the baby.
I love this part of the story. I thought this moment was really very chilling.Quote:
The hallucination takes possession of Varka. She gets up from her stool, and with a broad smile on her face and wide unblinking eyes, she walks up and down the room. She feels pleased and tickled at the thought that she will be rid directly of the baby that binds her hand and foot. . . . Kill the baby and then sleep, sleep, sleep. . . .
Here we can see how she really is dillusional and and how her mind has finally completly snapped and she is pushed over the edge.Quote:
Laughing and winking and shaking her fingers at the green patch, Varka steals up to the cradle and bends over the baby. When she has strangled him, she quickly lies down on the floor, laughs with delight that she can sleep, and in a minute is sleeping as sound as the dead.
One of the things I like about my book is the last line says:
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she sleeps soundly as the dead child
Yes, it's another repetition in the story. The sense of dull sameness is really hammered home by this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Definitely. He mental state has to deteriorate if we're not going to despise her at the end. She kills a baby. One would have to be out of their mind to do that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Isn't the whole story build up for this moment? That's why I summarized what we've learned about Varka up to this point. It all comes into play here. All those parts of her personality make her prone to this. I suppose one could argue that there isn't any reason why she should pick the baby instead of anything else, but I didn't think that that was much of a stretch. The baby is quite annoying. It's natural that she would pick it as the source of her problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Chilling is the right word. I was looking for a way to describe the scene, but couldn't get the right word. Chilling fits well. It combines sadness with terror and that's what this scene purveys.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
That is good. I links the death of the child with her sleep. None of the other translations I've read, though, have included a line like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Perhaps I worded that wrong, I am not quite sure how to explain it really. Perhaps in a way it just felt like he glossed over this part, though I do not know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
I can understand why indeed she had choose the baby as her target, and well the child was starting to get on my nerves after a while. Though I understand for the sake of building sympathy why the child was cast in such a way, as he did come off as something of a brat constantly crying all the time, though of course the child could not truly be held responseble for this, but the baby was made to be grating upon the nerves and crying children are never pleasent.
I read over it again and I think I might see what you mean. There isn't much of her thought-process given. It might help if we saw into her psychology a little more at this critical moment, but instead Chekhov merely gives us her final verdict: "That foe is the baby." Is this what you think he glossed over?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Yes that is what I mean, that was what I was trying to say, we are not given much of a look as how she had gone from not knowing what the cause was, to suddenly her declaration that the child was the foe.
Yet, if Chekhov did let us into her private mental state more the story might lose some of its effect. I think you said it right when you called it "chilling;" and, if we were given a full account of Varka's mind, it might not be so chilling. I have hard time faulting the ending of this story because the ending gets me every time. Even though we can tell something bad is coming, that sentence "That foe is the baby" is still shocking and powerful. Perhaps everyone isn't as affected as I am, but I think the conclusion is excellent (hence why I made it my signature).Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Yes you might be right about that. I could loose something if we were given more of an account of Varka's though process, and I did like the story.
I was reading over some of Chekhov's letters today when I ran across one that made me think about Chekhov's endings. In the letter he said that he felt rushed by the time constraint placed on him. He lamented that many of his stories start out with large aims, but have to be cut short in order to be completed by the date set for publication. This led many of them to end in "fireworks," by which he meant a spectacular conclusion (like a character suddenly dying or making some important revelation). We can see this happen in stories like "The Black Monk" or "The Grasshopper." The story moves very gradually at the beginning, but finishes in an explosion of pathos, conflict, and spectacle at the end. Unfortunately, in some cases the "fireworks" don't yield the desired effect. They can seem artificial and forced if not done right. If the story opens up too much--as in the two stories I mentioned before--the sudden ending doesn't seem to match. In "Sleepy," however, I think this is done just right. The ending naturally flows out of the rest of the story, and it doesn't seem like a forced conclusion. I'm not entirely sure how Chekhov writes this one differently, but I just wanted to point out that I though the ending was handled much better here. I suppose it has to with keeping the story more focused than his others, but I'll have to think about it more.
That is a rather interesting bit of information.
One last thing:
I'm sure you're busy packing for Tahoe (and, once again, thanks for sticking in the discussion), but before you take off I want to comment on the chilling feeling in the conclusion. I think it deserves a little further thought. Earlier, I split the chilling sensation into two parts: terror and sadness. The sadness is a result of the tragic plot. Meanwhile, the spectacle creates the terror. Both the fear and sadness are handled quite well, and I want to trace them back to their sources in the story.
The story scares us because of Varka's madness primarily. The murder itself is actually glossed over. One might expect Chekhov to linger on the killing, but instead he nearly omits it. This is the closest Chekhov comes to referring to it:
This omission makes the murder even more terrifying, though. It shows how casually she does it. If we were given a description of the death, it might make the scene more gruesome or pathetic than terrifying. By omitting it, Chekhov puts the focus back on Varka's madness which is the truly scary part of this scene. The madness scares because it's so divorced from reality, and because it's so desperate. Chekhov writesQuote:
Varka steals up to the cradle and bends over the baby. When she has strangled him, she quickly lies down on the floor
"She cannot understand" and "She does her very utmost" are the two clauses which stick out. They show just how deluded and desperate Varka is. When the madness takes over she becomes even more deranged:Quote:
She understands everything, she recognises everyone, but through her half sleep she cannot understand the force which binds her, hand and foot, weighs upon her, and prevents her from living. She looks round, searches for that force that she may escape from it, but she cannot find it. At last, tired to death, she does her very utmost, strains her eyes, looks up at the flickering green patch, and listening to the screaming, finds the foe who will not let her live.
The crazed, pacing babysitter scares us more than the actual murder. It's Varka who provides the terror of the chilling conclusion.Quote:
The hallucination takes possession of Varka. She gets up from her stool, and with a broad smile on her face and wide unblinking eyes, she walks up and down the room.
The sadness of the ending comes from the typical formula for good tragedy: bad things happen to a character who draws our sympathy. In "Sleepy," Varka draws our sympathy through the main themes in the story. The themes of class, repression, mistaken associations, and sleep deprivation are all ones that people can relate to on some level. We know that the poor are treated unfairly or that people mistake one thing for another, so when Varka is treated cruelly for being poor or mistakes one thing for another we feel sympathy for her. Later, when she's driven to insanity, we feel tragic sadness. A bad thing has happened to a sympathetic character.
I could be wrong, but I think the chilling effect comes from the combination of the terror and sadness I described.
That is a very good point about the murder. I had not previously looked at it that way before, as I mentioned at first I was a bit dissapointed by how it came to be built up to so much just to be glossed over like that, but yes, what you say does make sense. It would have changed the dynmatic of the story. And perhpas in a way it would have also made Varka less sympatheic if it explained the deed in detail.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
This is acutally one of the things I liked better about the online text. In my book it replaces "hallucination" with "idea" but I do think hallucination is so much a better word and gives it a much stronger affect.Quote:
The hallucination takes possession of Varka. She gets up from her stool, and with a broad smile on her face and wide unblinking eyes, she walks up and down the room.
I also wondered if making Varka so young was also meant to aide in drawing sympathy, as at only 13 she cannot be fully exepcted to be completly rational, and to have a full grasp and understanding of her actions. If Varka was older, even under the circumstances one might exepect her to still no better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
But being only 13 and put through what she is, she herself is really but a child and I think this helps make her more identifiable with the reader, as really she is too young to be given such responseablies.
Also I think it is more easy to accept a child being driven to such missassocations than it would be with an adult or someone who was older and had a more mature mind.
I like "hallucination" better, too. It's a much stronger word.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
The age certainly makes her more susceptible to her madness. Sometimes I forget that she's thirteen because Chekhov slips it in at the beginning and then doesn't refer back to it. The age, though, is very important.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Well it was a fun dicussion, I enjoyed the story, and it was good to have a chance to talk about it. So thank you for continuing it on with me, even though none of the others joined in. Hopefully by the time I get back you can rally up some new members to take part in this thread.
Have a good vacation!
I hope so, too. I'd like to get at least one more story in before work gets intolerably busy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Hi Everyone!
When will we be starting up the discussions again? I am back partly for now -will post more on the weekend; I now am at home on my new computer which is great; no more library uncomfortable chairs and limited computer access.
I hope we can do another Chekhov story in September; I actually miss Chekhov, Quark, haha...and now I have that great book of his short stories, thanks to you. Soon I will send you those Chekhov disks.
What does everyone think? Will we resume next month? Sorry I have been away so long. I see you, Quark and DM finally discussed 'Sleepy'...someday I will have to read your discussion...haha..seriously, I am sure it was enlightening and interesting.
I could go for starting another story
Hi DM, did you miss me? haha - we were getting along so well when I left, due to the death of my PC. I see you two did 'Sleepy' - a very dark tale. Where is our fearless leader Quark these days? If he cannot participate, then maybe you and I can discuss a story and then start up the Lawrence thread in Sept. What do you think? Did you have a particular story picked out. I had listened to a number of them on my CD audio set and liked one Chekhov particularly. I forget the name now, but I will look it up and let you know, or if you have a preference, let me know. All this, provided that Quark is too busy this month to discuss on this thread - he is in grad classes, perhaps (?).Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Hehe it has been a while.
Yes, the Sleepy dicussion was interesting, though it ended up just being the two of us, as others who had expressed interest than did not show up, but we had fun.
Acutally during the time that this thread has been on break, I have been busy reading other short stories so I haven't looked at Chekhov sense Sleepy, and sense I do not know him very well, I would have no idea upon a story to choose. I would end up picking on just based on its name LOL
Glad the 'Sleepy' discussion was interesting and went well, with just the two of you. I actually listened a few times to all the ones on my CD set and some I liked very much, so I have some ideas on the subject. Maybe since the month is partly begun, we could pick an easy short one. I am not back full-tilt yet; I am still getting used to my new computer and Vista. I like it very much so far and it is faster now, going from thread to thread or window to window. I have something pressing this week to attend to, but next week might be good to begin a new story. Any ideas if Quark has been around? or what he is up to? I really just wanted to touch base here and see what everyone intended for the thread - maybe Quark is taking a break until Sept.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
How is everyone doing? It's been a while. Janine, I see you're posting after 9:00 today. Does that mean you have a new computer? I just got back from a ten day vacation, so this is the first time I've been back in a long time. I guess it was good timing that I got back in time for another Chekhov discussion. We could do another story, but it might be a rather abbreviated one since I have to be moving into my new place on the 15th or 16th. If that's alright, I'm more than willing to do another story. Does anyone have one in mind that they might like to do?
I think Janine might have an idea for a story. Good to see you back around again.
Yes, she's very fond of that CD set. I forget which stories are on it, though. I think "In the Ravine" is included. That's, of course, a classic Chekhov story. It's a little long--a little shorter than "The Black Monk," maybe--but it's an excellent read.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Hi Quark, good to see you back; hope school is going well and your 10 day vacation sounded great. I am back and on my new computer, thanks to some very thoughful friends. Yeah, I don't have to go to the library anymore and I can post past 9 o'clock; you are right about that! Library schedule was awful for me. I am not back full-force posting yet, but thought I would pop-in here and see what has been happening. I need to get fully oriented and familarize myself with all the aspects of Vista and the different way things happen automatically on here; which is kind of freaky. I just sucessfully got my printer to work, but it was not the way my friend suggested. Vista goes and gets it for you...hahaa...kind of scary like Hal in 'Space Odyssey'. Next thing, computers will have real live conversations with us:eek2:Quote:
How is everyone doing? It's been a while. Janine, I see you're posting after 9:00 today. Does that mean you have a new computer? I just got back from a ten day vacation, so this is the first time I've been back in a long time. I guess it was good timing that I got back in time for another Chekhov discussion. We could do another story, but it might be a rather abbreviated one since I have to be moving into my new place on the 15th or 16th. If that's alright, I'm more than willing to do another story. Does anyone have one in mind that they might like to do?
hope they don't do this - :argue:...haha
Hahaha - talking about me behind my back again, eh? I do like that CD set, but you did not like the stories I suggested that much. 'The Ravine' is a good story, but we should save it for a time we have more time to spend on it - it is quite long. I know I am not yet up to the task. Let me check out the CD set and see if I can suggest any - I do recall I liked the one about the house - forget the name now --- or pick a short one from the book you sent me; that would be fine with me. Something new would be fun. I could read it on the weekend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
HELLO - So where is everybody??? Is it me or what? I have been all around the forum yesterday and today and it feels like a ghost town here. Is everyone on vacation?
Is there any verdict on which story to read next? The one I had thought of was "The Trousseu", but I don't think you were keen on that one Quark. I thought "The Country Doctor" sounded interesting - it is in my book and I think you mentioned it before once.
Everyone in this forum has dissapared, I think me and Quark must have scared them off or something. Maybe they are all busy for the summer
Hi DM! hahaah - Yay, you two are soooo scary! haha. I noticed that it is pretty empty in the forum and wondered about that. I think I am the last poster in a number of threads now....maybe they will all resurface on the weekend.....
Hahaha, yes we are, we are two terrors. Maybe people will start to trickle back in once this thread gets more active again and a new story starts
What people? :lol: I think it will basically be just the three of us....but that is ok with me. Even two will work, don't you think? Another story that sounded good to me in the book was 'Dreams' - I will try and check the stories out tonight. No rush on this end.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Yes I think the three of us would be fine. It worked well enough when it was just me and Quark
DM, sounds just fine to me. I will review some of the stories over the weekend. Maybe you could also read a few and see what you think. If Quark is too busy, I can choose one or he can if he would rather do so. Q is the boss here. haha....
Sorry to disappear so suddenly. I've been busy with this questionnaire Scher sent me which has something like fifty questions in it. When I signed up I wasn't expecting it to be quite so onerous, but I'm almost half-way through it now. Hopefully I can finish tonight so we can get on with the Chekhov story.
As for picking one, I think either "Dreams" or "The Country Doctor" would do well. I'm a little less fond of "The Trousseau." It's not a bad story, but I think there are better stories that we haven't done yet.
That is ok, Quark, I just wondered where everyone ran off to; either I could not find anyone or else I was not looking in the right threads. Maybe some people are on vacation. I know what you mean about forms. I hate them, too. I had this important paper had to be send in about some medical business and it really irritated me; I was relieved when I retrieved the papers I needed to copy to send and finally put the whole business into the mailbox.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
I will check the stories out this weekend. 'Dreams' sort of intrigues me, because I am an avid nite dreamer. Of course, that title might throw me way off, but we will see. Either one sounds like a good story if you say so; you should know since you are the Chekhov expert here.
If I can just pop in here, we do get significant cues as to Varka's mental state. She is emotionally and mentally exhausted by her poverty, by the past incident of her father dying on the floor with his "boo boo boo". The father not only prefigures the infant, but I'd say his pain and death are the actual monsters Varka wants to defeat, and tries to, in transferring the monstrous onto the infant without truly realizing the horror of infanticide. I've read a significant amount of Chekhov, and "Sleepy" is a superb little gem. It is sparse, dramatic, real without being maudlin. Varka is little more than a young girl herself, therein the tragedy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
"Dreams" is an interesting story. I would be glad to discuss that one. As for the other story, which doctor story is that? There are two. One is called (on LitNet) "The Doctor" and the other is called "A Doctor's Visit." Which one are you thinking of? Does it involve a doctor visiting a family that owns a factory, or is about a conversation between a doctor and mother who's son is dying?Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Yes, by that point in the story we know quite a lot about Varka, but what I was trying to say earlier is that Varka's reasoning isn't clear to herself at that point. The two paragraph that DM and I were discussing were told from Varka's perspective, and hence we're not privy to her inner reasoning. DM didn't like this so much, but I argued that it was important for the effect. If we were more privy to Varka's reasoning, than the declaration "That foe was the baby" wouldn't be as chilling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jozanny
Varka might hate pain and death in the abstract, but don't you think her real antagonist in this story is her masters? They're what's keeping her up. When Chekhov says that she looks around to find what's keeping her up, don't you think Chekhov means the masters? Varka, of course, fails to see that, however, and she blames the baby.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jozanny
I completely agree. It's probably best story from that part of Chekhov's career. I've gushed about it quite a bit already.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jozanny
:) Hi again Quark, I guess it was 'The Doctor's Visit'...hahah...I did not read it yet...sounds cheery;) :( ...Quote:
"Dreams" is an interesting story. I would be glad to discuss that one. As for the other story, which doctor story is that? There are two. One is called (on LitNet) "The Doctor" and the other is called "A Doctor's Visit." Which one are you thinking of? Does it involve a doctor visiting a family that owns a factory, or is about a conversation between a doctor and mother who's son is dying?
Let's do 'Dreams' then - that one is short and sounds interesting to me. If you say it is 'interesting' I will believe you. I think it would be fun to discuss that one and hopefully not too taxing for the time left to us in this month. They don't kill any babies or small animals, do they? :( hahaha
Okay, if DM doesn't have any objections I'll go ahead and post an introduction tomorrow. There's no rush as far as reading the story, but I do want to get the intro out as soon as possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
No, there isn't any infanticide or wanton killing of cute animals--nothing too objectionable. It's a pretty humane story, so feel free to read this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Ok I will see if it it in my book, and if not look for it online