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Good, I am tied up (not literally :lol:), but I am tied up with other matters, presently. I did just peak in on the L thread and read the posts. Will comment tomorrow. Right now I should be in bed - it is almost 4 PM! what am I doing up still???Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
Hopefully I'm not moving too fast, but there's still four more sections of the story left and only so many days in the month. Besides, I made everyone read those other two stories, and we haven't commented on them at all yet. Dark Muse said something interesting about the three stories as a unit; and, if we're to get to that, I have to keep pushing everyone along. This story may go longer than a month, but I'd hate for it to take more than two months. So let's try to get to as much as we can. I say there's four sections of the story, and I divide them like this. From the beginning of Alekhin's story to the conclusion of "About Love", there's Alekhin's narrative up to the point he meets Anna, Anna and Alekhin's relationship, the conclusion of their relationship, and then the break away from Alekhin's narrative back to his argument and the visitor's reaction. The first chunk of the story, Alekhin's narrative up to meeting Anna, looks like this on a computer screen:
Two things:Quote:
"I have lived at Sofino and been farming for a long time," Alehin began, "ever since I left the University. I am an idle gentleman by education, a studious person by disposition; but there was a big debt owing on the estate when I came here, and as my father was in debt partly because he had spent so much on my education, I resolved not to go away, but to work till I paid off the debt. I made up my mind to this and set to work, not, I must confess, without some repugnance. The land here does not yield much, and if one is not to farm at a loss one must employ serf labour or hired labourers, which is almost the same thing, or put it on a peasant footing -- that is, work the fields oneself and with one's family. There is no middle path. But in those days I did not go into such subtleties. I did not leave a clod of earth unturned; I gathered together all the peasants, men and women, from the neighbouring villages; the work went on at a tremendous pace. I myself ploughed and sowed and reaped, and was bored doing it, and frowned with disgust, like a village cat driven by hunger to eat cucumbers in the kitchen-garden. My body ached, and I slept as I walked. At first it seemed to me that I could easily reconcile this life of toil with my cultured habits; to do so, I thought, all that is necessary is to maintain a certain external order in life. I established myself upstairs here in the best rooms, and ordered them to bring me there coffee and liquor after lunch and dinner, and when I went to bed I read every night the Yyesnik Evropi. But one day our priest, Father Ivan, came and drank up all my liquor at one sitting; and the Yyesnik Evropi went to the priest's daughters; as in the summer, especially at the haymaking, I did not succeed in getting to my bed at all, and slept in the sledge in the barn, or somewhere in the forester's lodge, what chance was there of reading? Little by little I moved downstairs, began dining in the servants' kitchen, and of my former luxury nothing is left but the servants who were in my father's service, and whom it would be painful to turn away.
"In the first years I was elected here an honourary justice of the peace. I used to have to go to the town and take part in the sessions of the congress and of the circuit court, and this was a pleasant change for me. When you live here for two or three months without a break, especially in the winter, you begin at last to pine for a black coat. And in the circuit court there were frock-coats, and uniforms, and dress-coats, too, all lawyers, men who have received a general education; I had some one to talk to. After sleeping in the sledge and dining in the kitchen, to sit in an arm-chair in clean linen, in thin boots, with a chain on one's waistcoat, is such luxury!
"I received a warm welcome in the town. I made friends eagerly. And of all my acquaintanceships the most intimate and, to tell the truth, the most agreeable to me was my acquaintance with Luganovitch, the vice-president of the circuit court. You both know him: a most charming personality. It all happened just after a celebrated case of incendiarism; the preliminary investigation lasted two days; we were exhausted. Luganovitch looked at me and said:
" 'Look here, come round to dinner with me.'
islandclimber has already suggested that Alekhin story may just be told for egotistical reasons, and there's certainly evidence here for that claim. After Alehin's diatribe about the dangers of idle pondering, he immediately admits that he was an "idle gentleman by education, a studious person by disposition." Nothing in "About Love" makes us think he's changed, too. Why would he be arguing for action when that's the very thing he doesn't want to do? It's similar to the end of "Gooseberries" when Ivan argues that everyone should act virtuously, but then claims he's too old to do it. Alehin gives a lesson that he, himself, cannot possibly follow--and perhaps doesn't believe in. Alehin, of course, frames this as the tragedy: that he's incapable of ignoring reason and public opinion. Does anyone believe that's true, though? Is the tragedy that he's incapable or is it that he's deluded himself with this egotistical explanation of love?
This passage also makes me suspicious of Alehin's reasons for loving Anna. He despises his life in the country, and finds his escapes into the city very enjoyable. His relationship with Anna seems to just naturally grow out of his need for escape. Love for Anna could just be love for the lifestyle she represents and that Alehin can lead with her. In the Lawrence thread, we're discussing a story where a wife worries about the husband becoming common and boring, and I notice a similar fear here. It's difficult to tell whether Alehin's affection for Anna is genuine or just relief from this fear.
Those are my two things. There's more, but I don't want to drag on. I'm curious to see what other people think of this part. I'll be back to respond tonight.
And when do you get up in the morning? Or is it the afternoon? That's funny Janine. You must not sleep with anyone, or else they'd put a stop to that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Well I had typed out a post in reponse to this, and than when I hit submit, it did not go through for some reason, and now I have to go, so when I get back, I will retype out my post.
Did anyone read the short commentary I posted (post #269) on the three stories being definitely linked in a trilogy? Chekhov apparently planned even more stories to this set but never achieved it.Quote:
Hopefully I'm not moving too fast, but there's still four more sections of the story left and only so many days in the month. Besides, I made everyone read those other two stories, and we haven't commented on them at all yet. Dark Muse said something interesting about the three stories as a unit; and, if we're to get to that, I have to keep pushing everyone along. This story may go longer than a month, but I'd hate for it to take more than two months. So let's try to get to as much as we can. I say there's four sections of the story, and I divide them like this. From the beginning of Alekhin's story to the conclusion of "About Love", there's Alekhin's narrative up to the point he meets Anna, Anna and Alekhin's relationship, the conclusion of their relationship, and then the break away from Alekhin's narrative back to his argument and the visitor's reaction.
Quark, thanks for posting the next part of the text. I like the way you have divided the story into four sections. (you're starting to think like me. ;) )
As to discussing the three stories in this trilogy, I would agree with that idea. However, I would do each in each month. I can't really handle doing all of them this month; I will consider all three, in two months time. We have time on this current story; it is only the 6th and we should finish by May. I can't see that there would be a problem with that, even though I know I am lagging behind a bit; it could not be helped....other duties were beckoning me. It is that way sometimes. I have read mostly all the posts and copied them to an offline file. I read the story several times now. I am not a total failure yet.
I have some additional commentary to post on this story specifically; I just hope everyone will read it, if I take the time to type it out.
I will try and comment also on the passages you posted today. Thanks again.
Yes, I am on the night-shift! no one here cares anymore - they all know me. I get up in the afternoon - yes, well I need 7,8 hours sleep, don't I? Last night was extreme - the birds were singing when I finally fell asleep. After shutting down the computer, I finished the book I was reading. I definitely am doing way too much right now. Go see my mega post in the L thread and you better read it after I typed all of that twice!
It is true that we have no reason to suspect that he has changed in anyway, though it is possible that after his experience, he wishes to spare others from making the same mistakes that he himself had made, and that he is indeed regretful over his own choices, and perhaps feels it is too late for him now, but this story is meant to be a lesson to others not to do as he did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
Though it does seem to me he suffers from a bit of egotism. I think in a way he almost likes to paint himself as the "martyr" he can feel as if the sacrifices he made were noble, and that in his suffering he is the "hero" in some regards.
As in the beginning he mentions that he is now working his father's farm because his father had gone into debt on account of Alehin's education, though we know nothing about his father or his father's motives, it seems unlikely that he had given so much to give his son a good education just so Alehin can come to spend his time working on his father's farms.
It seems that Alehin really does not like to take risks for himself, but instead finds excuses for him to stay locked within some routine, which he can than feel as if he is in someway being heroic in his actions, but not actually trying to break free for himself. He uses the excuse of not wanting to disrupt Anna's home life as a way to make himself look better.
It is questionable if Anna and Alehin truly did love each other, as in some ways there does seem to be a lack of certain passion between them in their relations with each other. I think perhaps the fact that they are both two young people whom might have similar interests, and each provide the other with a certain escape or break in their usual routine and lives, they might have developed an infatuation with each other that they mistake as actual love.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
As already mentioned, Anna, for Alehin represents an escape from his dull country life, and she stands for the lifestyle he might really wish to have for himself.
While Alehin, for Anna represents an escape from her day to day home life, as well as the opportunity to have a lively conversation with someone of intellect and wit.
I think it is the "newness" of each of them to each other which first attracts them, but I think in some ways, they feel safe in the fact that there is this barrier between them, and that is what allows them to carry on with their relationship. In the end I do not think they truly desired to actually be together, because in doing this, that would ruin the one thing each one can offer the other.
I think this is also way they cannot truly account for their attraction to each other, because they are not so much in love with one another for who they are, but perhaps more for what they are, and what they symbolize to the other.
Hi everyone, sorry I disappeared for awhile here... I've just been really busy with work... and it looks as though that will continue this week.. so please don't wait up, I have been reading all the posts and following along I just haven't really found time to make a substantial and meaningful post myself...
But on the intro to this new section of the story... great job Quark... I agree with your two points and how you made them...
and DarkMuse... wow... fantastic post... :) I agree with everything you put there... he does seem to have a bit of a martyr complex... in that he wants to appear noble in his actions, as we see, first with the farm, and working to pay off his father's debts... and then with Anna and society and so called morality... It's funny, I've been reading Nietzsche's "Thus Spake Zarathustra" for a second time, and Nietzsche argues against these so called Judeo-Christian moralities so convincingly... and this story could be a case in point... haha... but I also agree the reality, the truth of their love seems to be more in infatuation with something new and fresh, something offered to one another, that has been terribly lacking up to that point... Anna's husband is made out to be quite dull, though it is only from the protagonist, Alekhin, that we hear this, and he may be quite biased... and Alekhin's life on the farm is lonely, dull, devoid of intellectual stimulation.... each offers a remedy to the other, but I think part of it may be due to the moderation of time spent together and because they have the other aspects to hold in contrast too... I agree they seem to have more fallen in love with the idea of the other, and what the other symbolizes for them, than the solely the self, and who they are...
Janine ... every time I type your name I think of the David Bowie song now... jeez louise :p ... post 269 was great... very interesting... i am particularly interested in the idea that these stories were meant to be a small part of a larger group of connected stories.. . I think he may have found the type and idea behind these stories somewhat exhausted by the three he finished though... though there are other stories of his that fall into similar ideas... I like how your quote comments on the narrow aspect of life Chekhov was writing on in these stories, yet at the same time, looking deeper one sees the stories encompass a whole number of questions on life and existence... that is one of the things I enjoy about Chekhov, how he can appear to be so simple outwardly, yet his stories are so rich and full of underlying meaning... I also find it interesting the similarity to Tolstoy here... my problem is, there are two kinds of russian lit enthusiasts.. those who love tolstoy, and those who love dostoevsky, and a small group that overlap haha... I fall into the second group, those who love D... Tolstoy's characters are always so shallow and dull in my opinion.. I have gone through most of his works, and I just find them so dreadfully dry.... but I see the parallels between Tolstoy and these stories.. though Chekhov seems to right this story, not so much as a parallel to AK, but as a reaction, the characters behaving int eh opposite manner to a degree in this one...
I also see some of Hardy, in "The Woodlanders" in these stories... also "The Return of the Native" I find glimpses of similarity here, and much of Hardy's short works which are frightfully undervalued... As I stated before I find Hardy and Chekhov quite similar in style, setting and content... That is just my opinion... I may try to look into giving more examples of this if I can find the time to reread some Hardy short stories... especially in relation to these stories... but Hardy and Chekhov are both of the pastoral, simple, poetic, writing style... that alone makes them similar...
cheers all.. I will be back again as soon as I can be...
Thank you, and that must be interesting, reading Nietzsche beside this story.Quote:
Originally Posted by islandclimber
Yes that is very true, as Alekhin can be seen as the husbands "rival" we do not truly know what Anna actually felt for her husband, only what Alekhin tells us though we could question his own opinion of the matter considering how personally he is involved in the situation, and how it would serve him to paint the husband as being such.
I also found it interesting, that most of their interaction together seemed to be done "safely" that is they did not even seem to try to make many opportunities for themselves to be intimate with each other, so they could carry on this affection for each other without truly being confronted by it or having to commit to it, as Alekin's visits to Anna were most often quite in the open, and while the husband was there at the house.
It does not appear as if they really shared many private moments together but often when he is speaking of his time with Anna, he always refers to "they" as both her and her husband being present. Or the Anna's children being there.
It was almost as if their relationship was really more in their head than anything, as outwardly they did not really engage romantically, they enjoyed each other's company, but did not physically act in a way that could be seen as inappropriate.
agreed... I think it was more of an intellectual relationship... which is what they were both looking for, some sort of intellectual stimulation and engagement.. and that appears to be why they did not try to expand upon their relationship into more intimacy.. they always seemed content with not finding time to be completely alone... as you say they had few private moments together, and maintained their relationship quite safely, without attempting to become more intimate...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
I have been reading all of your posts and glad you did read my quoted text. Thanks islandclimber, I haven't had time either to post many of my own thoughts on the story. Sorry everyone. Hope I can do so next week.
It is so funny about my name :lol: Does the tune jangle around in your head?:lol:
I find this part especially interesting in that we know that he had two choices and he chose toQuote:
I just wanted to post this additional commentary on the story, found in the same book as the other excerpt:
In "About Love," Alekhin tells of his love for Anna, the beautiful wife of the judge of the district town, He feels that his life of rural provincialism is unworthy of Anna. "Where could I take her?" he says.
...it would be different if I led a beautiful interesting life; if, for instance, I fought for the liberation of my country, or if I were a well known scholar, musiscian or an artist. Bit as it isI would just have taken her from one dull, ordinary life to another.
While Belkin's life is destroyed by fear and Nikolay Invanych's by the pettiness of his aims, Alekhin's limitations are more elusive. Unlike the earlier protagonists of the trilogy, Alekhin vaguely realizes his own failure, but he is prevented from action by a lack of elan, by a feeling of inertia. As he bids farewell to Anna for the last time, the strength of their mutual feelings forces both into a declaration of love. But it is too late. Life and love have passed them both by. Alekhin understands this as he reasons:
I understood that if you love you must, in your thinking about that love, begin from the highest kind of feeling, from feelings which are more important than happiness or unhappiness, sin or virtue in their common meaning. Or you must not think at all.
'not think at all' throughout the story.
Some final comments on the story:
Quote:
"About Love" is united to the preceeding story by the figure of Alekhin who has appeared as so sensuously enjoying life in the introductory scene to "Gooseberries." The contrast of that picture to the one of Alekhin as the story ends is strong. But Alekhin's experience leaves only nostalgic feelings, and his life is unchanged. He continues "rushing around his huge estate like a squirrel in a cage." His approach to life is only a sweet memory.
I'm curious to know why he didn't finish the series, and what the plans were for the other stories. I imagine that his short deadlines had something to do with it. Chekhov once complained to a friend, "I like to delve into things and putter around. But what can I do? I begin a story September 10th with the knowledge that I must finish it by October 5th at the latest. If I delay it I break my promise and go without money." I don't know the actual reason why he abandoned the series, but time-constraints may have had something to do with it. It sounded like the details were sketchy, but did the book say anything about why he stopped? There are a few other stories with a similar theme. "The Betrothed" comes to mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
My plan is to work through this story, and then discuss the other two in relation to this one. If I sense a lot of interest or if we get stuck talking about one of the other two stories, we might take time and just do that one by itself. I don't want to get stuck on these stories for an inordinate amount of time--say three months. It's best to keep rotating stories to keep things new and interesting. Don't worry, though. I'm sure to pick a short one to make it easy on everyone after this month's long reading.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Share your research, Janine. The two sections you've posted from that commentary have been helpful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
That's true. Chekhov doesn't discount the possibility that Alehin really is sincere, that he wishes he could overcome reason and public opinion. He could be trying to instruct, but the details of his story often contradict the point he's trying to make. When he rails against Russian gentlemen who spend their time overthinking but then is represented as being exactly that, it makes it difficult to know what to think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
I agree that he there's an egotistical motive behind Alehin's story, but I don't think he paints himself as a martyr or as noble. It seems like he wants to be pitied more than he wants to be respected. Instead of portraying his actions as serving a higher good, Alehin calls his decision a mistake. If he were aiming for martyrdom, I would think he would want to interpret his decision as the right one. He does the opposite and claims he broke off the relationship because out of weakness. The reaction he's wants seems more like pity or commiseration.Quote:
Originally Posted by islandclimber
Do you doubt that Alehin got the education he claims, or that Alehin would bound to return to the farm?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Questionable is probably the safest word you could use to describe their relationship. There's a lot of ambiguity surrounding who felt what for whom and why. I have a good theory, but I'm going to wait and put it in a post by itself so I have room for everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
I was wondering where you went. Sorry about work.Quote:
Originally Posted by islandclimber
Alehin believes the husband is a bore; but, he doesn't show any evidence that Anna agrees with him, nor does he show any marital problems between the two. Dark Muse made a observation below which also speaks to Alehin's bias. Alehin constantly describes Anna as a wife and mother. He repeatedly refers to the Luganovitchs, too. The manner of talking about husband and wife makes it seem like their a tight family unit, and not the unhappy couple Alehin would like to believe.Quote:
Originally Posted by islandclimber
Yeah, I'd have to opt for the later also.Quote:
Originally Posted by islandclimber
This book only says this: "But Chekhov was never to add to this group of stories, although later works show some thematic links to this cycle."Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
Prior to this, the commentator says that Chekhov tried to hold up publication of the three stories, until he added to them. There is a footnote to that, so I will try and track down some more information on ithis subject, or in the other book, I took back to my library. I go back there tomorrow night. It later mentions that a few other stories, that surface later on did, indeed, relate 'in theme' to these stories.
I would probably have to read this whole commentary book, to see just why Chekhov sometimes abandoned work or his proposed projects. You should buy this book, Quark, it is very good or maybe your library would have it. It is called: Chekhov and his prose by Thomas Winner. I saw it on Amazon quite reasonaly priced. It would be a great one to own, you being such a Chekhov enthusiast. Chapters are broken down thematically. I long to read this whole book, but not sure I will have the time currently.
[quote]My plan is to work through this story, and then discuss the other two in relation to this one. If I sense a lot of interest or if we get stuck talking about one of the other two stories, we might take time and just do that one by itself. I don't want to get stuck on these stories for an inordinate amount of time--say three months. It's best to keep rotating stories to keep things new and interesting. Don't worry, though. I'm sure to pick a short one to make it easy on everyone after this month's long reading.
Sounds ok, but not in only one month. Two might be workable for me. I can understand now wanting to get stuck on these 3 stories but I don't see anyone complaining - we all seem to be into them now. I like the idea of them all relating and wish we had taken them in order.
Always, I just love research! But it can get truly exhausting, especially the typing or scanning.Quote:
Share your research, Janine. The two sections you've posted from that commentary have been helpful.
That is an irony. I agree with the rest, you point out here, prior to your last statement - the irony or double standard.Quote:
That's true. Chekhov doesn't discount the possibility that Alehin really is sincere, that he wishes he could overcome reason and public opinion. He could be trying to instruct, but the details of his story often contradict the point he's trying to make. When he rails against Russian gentlemen who spend their time overthinking but then is represented as being exactly that, it makes it difficult to know what to think.
I agree. I think martyr is going a little to far. I didn't see it that way when he broke down in the train compartment and weep. I felt that was truly sincere. I like the idea of 'weakness' preventing him from making the right decision in the end. Apparently at the end of his story, in looking back, he feels he did not make the right decision, am I right?Quote:
I agree that he there's an egotistical motive behind Alehin's story, but I don't think he paints himself as a martyr or as noble. It seems like he wants to be pitied more than he wants to be respected. Instead of portraying his actions as serving a higher good, Alehin calls his decision a mistake. If he were aiming for martyrdom, I would think he would want to interpret his decision as the right one. He does the opposite and claims he broke off the relationship because out of weakness. The reaction he's wants seems more like pity or commiseration.
I found that curious. I felt he got the education, but then chose to stay on the farm and work the land, because he truly enjoyed that lifestyle and did feel a part of it and felt responsible for it.Quote:
Do you doubt that Alehin got the education he claims, or that Alehin would bound to return to the farm?
Yes, 'questionable' is a good word for their true feelings and relationship or possible love. Will we ever know for sure? There is so much ambiguity surrounding the whole interaction between them. I will wait to hear your good theory, Quark. ;)Quote:
Questionable is probably the safest word you could use to describe their relationship. There's a lot of ambiguity surrounding who felt what for whom and why. I have a good theory, but I'm going to wait and put it in a post by itself so I have room for everything.
I will let someone else answer the rest of your post. Good post, Quark!
I do not question that he recivied the education, but rather what he choose to do with it, which is sort of where I brought in the martyr complex.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
Usually when a parent makes a sacrifice for thier childern's education it is so they can better themselves not just follow in thier parents footsteps.
Alehin, does not seem to really do anything with his education, and he useses his need to work off his father's debts, on his account, to stay upon the farm and work it, though I do not think that is what his father had in mind for him when he put his son through school.
Dark Muse, Are we on a short break here? I could sure use a break, with the two SS threads being so active. I am so tired out from posting and catching up on emails. A few days would help out. Where did islandclimber and Quark run off to, anyway? I am not complaining, since I want to go and watch a movie right now and relax. I am maxed out on this computer and my brain is, too!
Hehe I am not sure where they are off too.
yooohooo.... helloooooooo... I am here!!! I never run that far... welll besides when I have nightmarish type creatures chasing me... :p ...
anyways getting back to the story...
Yes, I do agree martyr might be too strong a term... but I still do see Alekhin as quite egotistical.... so I would say you put it right with pity and sympathy and commiseration... but there is almost something more, I just keep feeling in reading the story... just due to the way he introduces the story... it seems like there is some motive beyond just asking for pity and commiseration... as though while wanting pity and sympathy, at the same time he wants to be recognized as having done the right thing... and whether he broke down and cried at the end, he still seems to be somewhat with ulterior motive in how he tells the story.. just the introduction is leading me to that.. maybe not martyrdom... but I think he does want to be praised for his noble action, the virtue of his action of letting her go...
Janine, I don't think he does feel he made the wrong choice, there is some evidence for that from the tearshedding on the train, but that is completely overruled by the intro to the story.,.. and just the way he describes there relationship throughout... I think it is somewhat ambiguous, but I think it leans towards him wanting to show how he was selfless and noble and sacrificed his own happiness for the good of her husband and her children and out of respect for society's moral code.... or so I think.. maybe in his heart he feels sad and that he should have made a different choice, but in his mind he has convinced himself that he did the right and noble thing....
you know that new film "Moliere"... it has a similar love story... similar choice to make... it is quite interesting...
I have to say I myself would say damn society and morality.. but that is just me... hahah.. love is more important than ridiculous societal impositions... :D