Do You Believe In the paranormal and Did you ever experience supernatural Phenomena?

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Originally Posted by JuniperWoolf

Okay, a couple of questions (because I never get to grill people who claim to have seen ghosts, on account of I don't want to offend them or burst their bubble and kill their fun).

Where were you? Was it closed off to the rest of the public? While you were there, did you see any other people around? You're sure that everyone in your group is in the picture except for the one holding the camera?

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Originally Posted by Niamh

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q...inthecrowd.jpg

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Original photo from a couple of pages back. I'm the one in the green coat. I'm facing where that face should be and there was no one there. I can name everyone else in that photo including the photographer and the owner of the red coat that you can faintly see beside me. She was standing facing the same way. No one is missing. Not sure if you can see the back of the photo. the bunker is open. It is on both sides because i once had trains running through it. Its located close to a beach at the end of The Pembrey Estate and Woods in Wales. No residence near by. If anyone else had turned up, it would have been the park rangers or coast guard and they would have been spotted and heard before they even approached the bunker. Yet there is still a face in the photo.

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Originally Posted by Niamh

i have had many things occur in my life that i would consider "unexplainable" or paranormal. When i'm dealing with the paranormal or events that could be paranormal i always apply scientific reasons or logic to why certain things occur or what could have caused something to happen. If i cant find any rational reason for it or am left stumped and it appears as if it could be paranormal, then i'll accept that it could be.

In the case of the photograph, it was taken on a digital camera and the photo was shown to the group only minutes later so an explaination of photoshopping can be discarded. As can the concept of double exposure. All the team are accounted for in the original photo so we can safely say its no one involved in the investigation. But yet the face is there.

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I'm not accusing you of lying about this, I'm just playing the odds. It's much easier for me to believe that the face is either someone in the group you don't recognize, or someone who was there that you don't remember, than that it's some sort of otherworldly apparition.

This is what I meant about Homo Sap's exaggerated sense of self-worth. We not only like to believe that humans go on to live strange, exciting lives after death, but we also tell ourselves that our departed ancestors have nothing better to do in the great beyond than appear to the living in weird ways. The afterlife must be pretty dull if these spirits get amusement from following us around in the dark to get their pictures taken, knocking the caps off our hair spray bottles, and pulling our hats off while we're spelunking.

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I appriciate and respect the fact that you do not believe in these things

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Really? Like when you said, "Not everything can be explained by science"? Isn't that your way of saying that anyone who considers these phenomena quite explicable is kidding themselves? If you have such a strong background in empirical inquiry, why are you denigrating "science" like it's inadequate for use in paranormal investigation? What is it about these weird experiences that's so inaccessible to the scientific method?

I'm always a little amused at the way paranormal believers like to characterize skeptics as arrogant, emotionally stunted killjoys. In this thread, I've been upbraided for my rigidity and dogmatism. It's as if expecting evidence for extraordinary claims is itself a weird fetish, and asking questions is an inexcusable affront to those who tout their supernatural experiences.

However, I insist it's the paranormal believers who display a marked lack of humility: they have crossed the line to the invisible world, they have lifted the veil of Maya, and their momentous experiences don't deserve to be questioned.

Regards,

Istvan

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Originally Posted by Babbalanja

Really? Like when you said, "Not everything can be explained by science"? Isn't that your way of saying that anyone who considers these phenomena quite explicable is kidding themselves?

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Thats not what i was saying at all. That was merely an opinion expressed at the end of my post and in no way was i implying anything of the kind.
That wasnt aimed at you so i dont even understand why you are taking offense to it.

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If you have such a strong background in empirical inquiry, why are you denigrating "science" like it's inadequate for use in paranormal investigation? What is it about these weird experiences that's so inaccessible to the scientific method?

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I'm not denigrating anything. I've already mentioned i look towards science for answers, but they are not always there, hence "science cant explain everything." Because it cant. there are still so many things out there in our existence and in our universe that there are no answers for yet, and the same goes for things considered paranormal.

This topic has a great deal of potential and I would love to hear of others experiences. As for those who don't believe; okay, we all know now that you don't believe; so why don't you open a thread of your own that discusses this?

Many of us who have had encounters don't go looking for them; we simply see what we see and go on with our lives. I doubt that the original buyers of the Amityville house were happy when they had to leave behind their investment.

I was also thinking that many people who trash the idea of the paranormal are disappointed former believers. I recall the story of Houdini, who became so disappointed after he could not talk to his dead mother ; that he went on a one man mission to "out" the paranormal community.

ie: Over the years, I have shown many people how to take their pulse; after placing their fingers over the vein, half of the people still cannot feel it. This does not mean that there is no heart beat; it only means that those people lack the sensitivity to feel it.

Now, let's get on with the telling of experiences....
And to Daniel and papayahed::hurray::thumbsup:

I wonder why people even care to vote when they have 'no opinion'.

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Originally Posted by Nikhar

I wonder why people even care to vote when they have 'no opinion'.

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Perhaps they want to proclaim their humility, for all to hear? Or they are dedicated to statistics, and think even the 'no opinion voice' needs to be counted?

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Originally Posted by soundofmusic

As for those who don't believe; okay, we all know now that you don't believe; so why don't you open a thread of your own that discusses this?

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The title of the thread is "Do You Believe In the paranormal and Did you ever experience supernatural Phenomena?"

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I was also thinking that many people who trash the idea of the paranormal are disappointed former believers.

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Well, first of all we're not trashing the idea of the paranormal, we're just challenging it. To challenge something isn't an insult. It's very important, that's how most of the greatest discoveries have been made (for example, if Aristotle's concept of the four elements had never been challenged we wouldn't have the periodic table).

Secondly, I would disagree. I think that the widespread belief in the paranormal is a combination of thrill seeking (fear is exciting, and the weirdness of ghosts is a nice break from the drudgery of everyday life) and denial that death is the end (unlike Istvan though, I don't see anything wrong with that... fear of death is human, nothingness is a hard thing to come to terms with).

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Originally Posted by Nikhar

I wonder why people even care to vote when they have 'no opinion'.

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Originally Posted by billl

Perhaps they want to proclaim their humility, for all to hear? Or they are dedicated to statistics, and think even the 'no opinion voice' needs to be counted?

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I think it helps to have their vote, too. It's like an undecided in the presidental elections.

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Originally Posted by JuniperWoolf

The title of the thread is "Do You Believe In the paranormal and Did you ever experience supernatural Phenomena?"

Well, first of all we're not trashing the idea of the paranormal, we're just challenging it. To challenge something isn't an insult. It's very important, that's how most of the greatest discoveries have been made (for example, if Aristotle's concept of the four elements had never been challenged we wouldn't have the periodic table).

Secondly, I would disagree. I think that the widespread belief in the paranormal is a combination of thrill seeking (fear is exciting, and the weirdness of ghosts is a nice break from the drudgery of everyday life) and denial that death is the end (unlike Istvan though, I don't see anything wrong with that... fear of death is human, nothingness is a hard thing to come to terms with).

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Yes, Juniper, I realized that after I made the post.
Really, though, when people begin to say that a person is either "hearing things or flat out lying"; it becomes insulting to those who are claiming such things. I think anything worth being discussed should hold up to challange; but, this topic is breaking down into an argument and passive-aggressive bullying.
The people who have told of their experiences have not claimed that they have any empirical data. On the other hand; none of those who are challanging their experiences are backing it up with anything other than, "Oh yeah, um...Dawkins, uh...science, uh...well you're wierd"

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Originally Posted by soundofmusic

Really, though, when people begin to say that a person is either "hearing things or flat out lying"; it becomes insulting to those who are claiming such things.

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And it's not insulting to be called dogmatic and rigid for not approaching these claims with utter credulity? It's not insulting to be told that we're the ones in denial for thinking these strange experiences are figments of the imagination or understandable products of grief?

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The people who have told of their experiences have not claimed that they have any empirical data. On the other hand; none of those who are challanging their experiences are backing it up with anything other than, "Oh yeah, um...Dawkins, uh...science, uh...well you're wierd"

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Well, we offered perfectly reasonable explanations for the ghost-face-in-the-picture. But the burden of proof isn't on us. The people who are claiming that naturalistic science is helpless to explain these momentous, otherworldly experiences are the ones who are expecting others to believe their ghost stories. And they are the ones acting insulted when people ask questions or offer rational explanations for these not-particularly-inexplicable phenomena.

Regards,

Istvan

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Originally Posted by Niamh

Original photo from a couple of pages back. I'm the one in the green coat. I'm facing where that face should be and there was no one there. I can name everyone else in that photo including the photographer and the owner of the red coat that you can faintly see beside me. She was standing facing the same way. No one is missing. Not sure if you can see the back of the photo. the bunker is open. It is on both sides because i once had trains running through it. Its located close to a beach at the end of The Pembrey Estate and Woods in Wales. No residence near by. If anyone else had turned up, it would have been the park rangers or coast guard and they would have been spotted and heard before they even approached the bunker. Yet there is still a face in the photo.

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Niamh, I am glad you posted this. I absolutely believe you. I went to a library night discussion on this same thing and the ghost investigators seemed to be totally honest. I also saw photos of the orbs and within the photo there was a face much like this one. I was prompted to go to the lecture, because my son stayed in a house his friend had purchased recently and the friend felt the house was haunted. I didn't know to if I should believe it, then but later my son, Sean, got really excited when he found a similar photo on his computer....he takes tons of photos all the time and he had not reviewed them; when he blew them up he was in for a surprise. This one definitely could not have been altered - he knows nothing of Photoshop or how to go about altering a photo. Clearly (even more than your photo) in the background through a window behind his friend was a face. It looked to be a woman from the 1800's by her hairstyle. Now, I guestioned him if maybe someone was peeking in the window, but he said it would be impossible. They set the shot up again and the window was too high for that to work. Also, when I looked at it, the demensions seemed a bit off. She would have had to be 8 foot tall and somehow the forshortening in the photo seemed wrong. But everyone said it was definitely a woman's face. He discussed the photo with his friends and they send it to the paranomial group at Rutgers University. They were very happy to have it. Needless to say, my son was scared out of his wits for months after the strange night he spend in the house.

Preceeding all of this the young man (his friend) had been renuvating the house and they took down part of a wall. Inside the wall they found an old toy. When they removed the toy is when the odd occurances began to happen. Later they put the toy back into the wall and now they spirit seems to have departed. Odd story, isn't it?

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Do You Believe In Ghosts or The Paranormal?

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Non, non et non!

I wasted months looking for a paranormal slave during my early years: under my bed, in bathroom at night, in the ruins and everywhere else. What a disappointment!

Normal is weird enough as it is.

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Originally Posted by Satan

Normal is weird enough as it is.

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True dat.

An example of how easily people are willing to believe in ghosts, and then how easy it is to disprove these stories:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_9DmF3Zc24

I love this guy, he's funny and good-natured. He has a lot of ghost story debunks, I recommend them.

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Originally Posted by Babbalanja

And it's not insulting to be called dogmatic and rigid for not approaching these claims with utter credulity? It's not insulting to be told that we're the ones in denial for thinking these strange experiences are figments of the imagination or understandable products of grief?

Well, we offered perfectly reasonable explanations for the ghost-face-in-the-picture. But the burden of proof isn't on us. The people who are claiming that naturalistic science is helpless to explain these momentous, otherworldly experiences are the ones who are expecting others to believe their ghost stories. And they are the ones acting insulted when people ask questions or offer rational explanations for these not-particularly-inexplicable phenomena.

Regards,

Istvan

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No, I appreciate your explanation of grief; and it is one that many psychologists would offer also, if we were ever brave enough to share these things with our psycholgists and neurologists. :cold:
I didn't find your explanation for the picture, I looked several pages back.

I know that both sides of this argument have been insulted; which is why I have suggested making the discussion less personal. We can learn alot from each other. For instance, I know little of scientific explanations for much of this phenomena.
For me, I appreciate peoples experiences; and, I must admit, it was no more difficult for me to "take in" than the concept of "Fido" walking into the water one day and becoming a whale...Now, I buy both ideas.
I don't think people can bear the "burden of proof" for their personal experiences; because what we see is subjective. It is up to the scientific community to prove or disprove such things.

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Originally Posted by JuniperWoolf

An example of how easily people are willing to believe in ghosts, and then how easy it is to disprove these stories:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_9DmF3Zc24

I love this guy, he's funny and good-natured. He has a lot of ghost story debunks, I recommend them.

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Thank you, Juniper. That really is something. I didn't think the thing in the window looked like a ghost; but I wasn't quite sure it looked like Ted Danson either. You make a good point though; there are many incidences in film where the paranormal was used to increase interest in the productions.
I seem to recall that there were several rumors of the "Poltergeist" and "Twilight Zone" movies being cursed because of multiple deaths.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Niamh, I am glad you posted this. I absolutely believe you. I went to a library night discussion on this same thing and the ghost investigators seemed to be totally honest. I also saw photos of the orbs and within the photo there was a face much like this one. I was prompted to go to the lecture, because my son stayed in a house his friend had purchased recently and the friend felt the house was haunted. I didn't know to if I should believe it, then but later my son, Sean, got really excited when he found a similar photo on his computer....he takes tons of photos all the time and he had not reviewed them; when he blew them up he was in for a surprise. This one definitely could not have been altered - he knows nothing of Photoshop or how to go about altering a photo. Clearly (even more than your photo) in the background through a window behind his friend was a face. It looked to be a woman from the 1800's by her hairstyle. Now, I guestioned him if maybe someone was peeking in the window, but he said it would be impossible. They set the shot up again and the window was too high for that to work. Also, when I looked at it, the demensions seemed a bit off. She would have had to be 8 foot tall and somehow the forshortening in the photo seemed wrong. But everyone said it was definitely a woman's face. He discussed the photo with his friends and they send it to the paranomial group at Rutgers University. They were very happy to have it. Needless to say, my son was scared out of his wits for months after the strange night he spend in the house.

Preceeding all of this the young man (his friend) had been renuvating the house and they took down part of a wall. Inside the wall they found an old toy. When they removed the toy is when the odd occurances began to happen. Later they put the toy back into the wall and now they spirit seems to have departed. Odd story, isn't it?

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That is amazing! What did your son do with the picture; I think it's a definite keeper. So, do you think the spirits were attached to the toy.
I remember when the Amityville house was up for sale for 11,000 dollars. It was close to the ocean and I told my husband that the land, alone would be worth that much. I doubt if I'd move into it though. I got so freaked out in the Tower of London, I had to leave before I got to the torture chamber.

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Originally Posted by Satan

Non, non et non!

I wasted months looking for a paranormal slave during my early years: under my bed, in bathroom at night, in the ruins and everywhere else. What a disappointment!

Normal is weird enough as it is.

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Are you sure; I could have sworn I saw your face in the papers: Satan keeps man...oops, too late, ghost in chains under bed:smilielol5:

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Originally Posted by soundofmusic

Are you sure; I could have sworn I saw your face in the papers: Satan keeps man...oops, too late, ghost in chains under bed:smilielol5:

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Argh! You know my secrets. I have to return some videotapes tonight. Coming with me? :ihih: