Spot on, Alex, childish is the word for it. The man's a moron.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexander III
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Spot on, Alex, childish is the word for it. The man's a moron.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexander III
You need to read more books.Quote:
Originally Posted by fb0252
Beginning to lose my faith in humanity at the post condemning White Noise and Mice and Men on the previous page.
White Noise is one of the best things written post-war...
i can only give my personal opinion. there's zero accounting for taste, as they say. if u think white noise is the best whatever u think, so be it. after 60 pages I abandoned my usual perseverance with mediocre writing and found good cause to practice my basketball toss with WN right into my kitchen dumpster. as for mice, I do poorly with dumbed down literature e.g. As I Lay Dying where I'd posted u're unable to find an intelligent sentence with a search warrant (later proven wrong when someone did post a couple of decent lines), and also with the sort of distasteful, to me, sexual innuendo. i am quite satisfied with my opinion of these which, contrary to above posting, is based on fairly broad comparisons.
If you're going to attempt to write with punctuation please don't stop half-way. It's more obnoxious than being entirely without punctuation.Quote:
Originally Posted by fb0252
It sounds as if you're in the habit of reading "mediocre writing" quite a bit. Although I have not read White Noise , it is written by one of the most prominent postmodernist authors, and like another poster here said, it is easily one of the greater postwar works of literature. That being said, one of the greater postwar works of literature can be anywhere from the single best, to the hundredth best. The latter position is still an achievement. As you endeavored to only read one-fifth of the novel, you have no right to criticize it.Quote:
I abandoned my usual perseverance with mediocre writing and found good cause to practice my basketball toss with WN right into my kitchen dumpster.
The fact also, that you decided to practice playing basketball instead of read, is another choice which illustrates your character.
"Dumbed down" literature? Modernism. It is called modernism. Because the literary techniques and intelligence of the novel completely eluded you, does not mean that Faulkner did not write a brilliant novel.Quote:
I do poorly with dumbed down literature e.g. As I Lay Dying where I'd posted u're unable to find an intelligent sentence
You have low standards to be satisfied by that.Quote:
i am quite satisfied with my opinion of these
i can only give my personal opinion. there's zero accounting for taste, as they say. if u think white noise is the best whatever u think, so be it. after 60 pages I abandoned my usual perseverance with mediocre writing and found good cause to practice my basketball toss with WN right into my kitchen dumpster. as for mice, I do poorly with dumbed down literature e.g. As I Lay Dying where I'd posted u're unable to find an intelligent sentence with a search warrant (later proven wrong when someone did post a couple of decent lines), and also with the sort of distasteful, to me, sexual innuendo. i am quite satisfied with my opinion of these which, contrary to above posting, is based on fairly broad comparisons.
Remember that personal opinion and value judgments are not one and the same.
Personal Opinion: "I don't like X"
Value Judgment: "X is an example of "dumbed-down" writing"
Personal opinion is not open to challenge. I may disagree with your opinion of the work in question if you state "I didn't like As I Lay Dying"... but I cannot challenge your opinion. If you say you dislike it, then you dislike it. End of story.
You open yourself to challenge, however, when you make value judgments... especially if they go against the accepted opinion. Why do imagine that Of Mice and Men or As I Lay Dying are dumbed-down? Do you assume that because you don't like something or don't get something that it is immediately "dumb". I don't particularly like James Joyce. He's never grown on me in spite of the fact that I love any number of other Modernists. Not for a moment, however, do I assume his writing is "dumbed-down". If anything, it is the exact opposite.
Again... I am not questioning your right to an opinion... your dislike of something I... or even the vast majority like. But calling something "dumb" simply because it didn't work for you is not much of a step above the teenager complaining that "Shakespeare sucks" after being assigned Romeo and Juliet for reading homework.
very easy. of mice and men is the single worst book for me ever that i finished.
You need to read more books.
Perhaps he or she has read nothing but Shakespeare, Dante, Homer, Virgil, Tolstoy, and such...:biggrin5:
interesting, as noted, am content to remain minority of one in personal scorn for Steinbeck, and in particular Delillo, and to lesser degree Faulkner. Harold Bloom has chapter on Faulkner in his book Genius which I will be interested to read. and, curiously also high praise for Delillo. Wondering if Bloom has actually read Dellilo, an experience that I'd take again maybe if someone put a gun to my head.
Joyce is usually one of the least cherished modernists. I remember reading him back when I was a great deal younger and I found it very unconventional. Reading Finnegan's Wake a few years later made me realize that Ulysses was actually quite conventional.Quote:
I don't particularly like James Joyce. He's never grown on me in spite of the fact that I love any number of other Modernists.
I believe that aside from subjective opinion of the novel, there are a few things that Ulysses has set in stone.
It immortalized Dublin (which is a minor point, actually).
It extensively used stream-of-consciousness in almost an impressionistic sense of expressing the interior of a character. (Although there were precursors to this in literature, such as Dujardin).
And then there's the abundance of allusions and puns.
It spawned countless amounts of foreign renditions, one of them being Berlin Alexanderplatz.
All in all it makes it one of the most "influential" novels of the 20th century-- although this tirade of mine is pointless, I realize you said that you believe that Joyce is the "exact opposite" of "dumbed down." The only reason I state this is because I remember seeing somewhere on this thread that many agreed to disagree of Joyce's literary recognition.
I doubt this, though. If he happens to be in the habit of reading great literature he would most likely address them properly.Quote:
Perhaps he or she has read nothing but Shakespeare, Dante, Homer, Virgil, Tolstoy, and such...
No one is going to waste any bullets on that head of yours.Quote:
an experience that I'd take again maybe if someone put a gun to my head.
intution that none will be wasting any bullets on this old carcass is good to see in print but am thinking u change ur screen name, as your "intuition" is a little off. have spent much of the last 10 years marking off Bloom's Western Cannon one by one including several reads of Shakespeare, a couple of times through Middlemarch etc., which may help explain my views on such as Delillo. Homer I never got to as Bloom left it out of the top 26. i consider Joyce one of the great minds btw and Ulysses one of the greatest books, whatever that is worth. St. L. G. i'd agree with ur general characterization, but "dumbed down" as in Faulkner, I more read as an excuse for inability. I'd doubt Faulkner on his best days could touch James Joyce on his worst, personal opinion that I'd also stand by as a value judgment :) Edit: Q--do men and women see books in differing ways--am unable to think a woman enjoying Montaigne e.g.?
IntuitionQuote:
Originally Posted by fb0252
1. Immediate cognition without the use of conscious rational processes.
2. A perceptive insight gained by the use of this faculty.
You proved that my instinctive knowledge was correct.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Bloom's Western Canon only contains twenty six writers. You took ten years to read that?Quote:
have spent much of the last 10 years marking off Bloom's Western Cannon one by one including several reads of Shakespeare, a couple of times through Middlemarch etc., which may help explain my views on such as Delillo. Homer I never got to as Bloom left it out of the top 26.
Secondly, I do not have a strong liking of Delillo, only that he happens to be an above average novelist who still lives.
I will not disagree, Middlemarch is an absolutely brilliant novel, not much of a point in comparing it to postmodern literature.
If that were so, then Dubliners and Finnegans Wake would have to be greater than The Sound and the Fury.Quote:
I'd doubt Faulkner on his best days could touch James Joyce on his worst
If that isn't obvious I'm not sure what is. Ask yourself this: do the majority of men that you know enjoy Jane Austen?Quote:
Q--do men and women see books in differing ways--am unable to think a woman enjoying Montaigne e.g.?
Barbara Cartland (ugh!)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Bloom's Western Canon only contains twenty six writers. You took ten years to read that?
Actually, the "canon" itself is a list of some 2000+ books added as an appendix to the back of the book of the same title.
i consider Joyce one of the great minds btw and Ulysses one of the greatest books
I don't question this. There are passages... whole chapters in Ulysses that I found absolutely brilliant. His writing, however, never engaged me as much personally or emotionally as Proust, Kafka... or even Faulkner.
Richard Dawkins is an acquired taste... i never acquired it
Quote:
Originally Posted by stlukesguild
I know the Canon itself is massive, I don't question that. But our colleague here was claiming that he was reading what Bloom considered to being the central part of the canon. Which would also be why he never read Homer because it was left out of the top 26 whom Bloom centralized around. I'm inclined to believe he was alluding to these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wes...ol_of_the_AgesQuote:
Homer I never got to as Bloom left it out of the top 26.
I was about to leap in with my usual J D Salinger, but I realise it is his novel I hate. That's not the same thing.
I can't think of any literary writers who are bad, compared to people like Dan Brown or Susan Hill.