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I guess you are all waiting for me...I will work on this later tonight. I think I had a few more comments on that segment of text that you posted, Virgil. I am pretty busy today, other than computer, but will try and concentrate and fit it in. I will take it from the last paragraphs I commented on. You liked those. Let's hope I can think as well today. My attention span has been kind of limited lately, but I will give it my best effort.
I just haven't got around to comitting yet. I was hoping to get to do so sometime today or this evening
Oh good, glad to see you back, Dark Muse. I can see you have been busy with your Poe group. That one really does look interesting. I wish there were more hours in the day. I would love to explore Poe's works but I still haven't gotten around to it and he has been on my list for years. I know my father adored his writing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
The notion of the demon is an interesting and rather strange one. According to the speach that her father gave everyone has a demon, yet in someway it seems that her and her fahter's demons are stronger then that of other people. It is her demon that makes her the last princess. It also seems as if they are the only ones who are truly aware of thier demons. Whiles others are oblivious to this thing that is a part of them and did not understand it is this demon that is the reason why they act the way they do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Just what the demon is, is hard to put a finger on. It seems almost like the soul, or the essence of a person, the core of thier being, the thing which is why people are the way they are. But it also seems to suggest people cannot help who and what they are, or the things they do, becasue the demon is in complete control, and I think it said within the fathers speach that people cannot help the way thier demons are, or something to that effect.
Dark Muse, I think we can explore this idea of 'demon' from Lawrence's point of view, even futher. I will try to find some references to it, in his letters, I have several volumes here I can refer to. This might shed some light on just what Lawrence means by it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
It is a good observation, on your part to delve into it, and see that father and daughter both possess it strongly, but also do other people - in fact, I think all people could be said to have the potential for this, but few develop it or recognise it. I will see what I can come up with later tonight and get back to you tomorrow. This idea is quite central to the theme of this story and of others by L.
Ok, we seem to be at a standstill here. I decided to drop the demon questions right now and address that issue at near the end of the story. I didn't get a chance to look up those letters yet and this seems to be going nowhere, so I will attempt to address these paragraphs. Hey, Virgil, you kind of posted too much text at one time. I find I get overwhelmed with that much to discuss. I know this is a long story so I think it will run through to January - maybe longer. Perhaps we should have made it a few months.
So here we see a very vivid description of Romero. The Princess percieves a 'spark' there...interesting word to use....sparks can ignite dynamite; also a spark can start a fire and fire and light are always significant to Lawrence. Romero has a "certain alert sensitiveness to his bearing", this is so animalistic - as animals are aware of their surroundings and any little sound of danger, so it is with Romero. He dresses more dapper and graceful than the typical Mexican. He is "thinnish and graceful". He is "silent, aloof and almost impreceptible in the landscape" - that too, seems to me to describe an animal, such as a graceful deer or panther. He is one with the landscape; therefore this is so intune with Lawrence's ideas of 'blood consciousness' and the ties of humans to nature and animals. Even his "startling quick intelligence" reminds me of the cunning of certain animals - the wolf comes to mind and I think also of Lawrence well known short book - "The Fox." The last part - about the "lean deft brown hands" recalls me to the book about the gypsy - he would be described like this. In fact in "The Virgin and the Gypsy" his hands are actually emphasised in a kind of cleansing routine. Like the gypsy, Romero is quiet and within himself and not "forthcoming, chatty or cossy."Quote:
But this spark was the difference between him and the mass of men. It gave a certain alert sensitiveness to his bearing and a certain beauty to his appearance. He wore a low-crowned black hat, instead of the ponderous headgear of the usual Mexican, and his clothes were thinnish and graceful. Silent, aloof, almost imperceptible in the landscape, he was an admirable guide, with a startling quick intelligence that anticipated difficulties about to rise. He could cook, too, crouching over the camp-fire and moving his lean deft brown hands. The only fault he had was that he was not forthcoming, he wasn't chatty and cosy.
Another indication that Romero is not much of a conversationalist. I think this would also refer to the Jews as being more chatty and intellectual in nature, but I am not sure. Jews were not always looked on favorably by the English back then.Quote:
"Oh, don't send Romero with us," the Jews would say. "One can't get any response from him."
The 'spark' again and the fact that the tourists were not alive enough to perceive it. Only The Princess detects this spark. Interesting parellel here again with "The Virgin and The Gypsy". The people around the woman protaganist - none could see what she sees. Same as with this story. It is all in the perception.Quote:
Tourists come and go, but they rarely see anything, inwardly. None of them ever saw the spark at the middle of Romero's eye; they were not alive enough to see it.
It sounds like a movie doesn't it? haha...Quote:
The Princess caught it one day, when she had him for a guide. She was fishing for trout in the canyon, Miss Cummins was reading a book, the horses were tied under the trees, Romero was fixing a proper fly on her line. He fixed the fly and handed her the line, looking up at her. And at that moment she caught the spark in his eye. And instantly she knew that he was aAnd instantly her manner towards him changed.Quote:
gentleman, that his 'demon', as her father would have said, was a fine demon.
Again, pretty specific about the 'demon' and one can see that she does not percieve that a demon is a bad thing, but a good thing...her father instilled this idea in her...."a fine demon"....therefore she see Romero in this light at this part of the story.
Wow, I was able to get into lit net today. Whoo-hooo!
I thought you wanted me to move faster. :lol: Ok, we'll slow down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Janine, this is an excellent find, something I had never picked up. To characterize Romero as "animalistic" is very important to the story. The reason Dollie gives for going on her adventure that leads to the climax is that she wanted to see the wild animals in their environment. I don't have the eact quote but i will certainly highlight it when we get to it. The fact that she can't see Romero's inherent animalism is a statement in itself. She doesn't really want to see the wild animals in their reality; she wants to see a romanitcized version of the wild animals.Quote:
So here we see a very vivid description of Romero. The Princess percieves a 'spark' there...interesting word to use....sparks can ignite dynamite; also a spark can start a fire and fire and light are always significant to Lawrence. Romero has a "certain alert sensitiveness to his bearing", this is so animalistic - as animals are aware of their surroundings and any little sound of danger, so it is with Romero.
Very good thoughts.Quote:
He dresses more dapper and graceful than the typical Mexican. He is "thinnish and graceful". He is "silent, aloof and almost impreceptible in the landscape" - that too, seems to me to describe an animal, such as a graceful deer or panther. He is one with the landscape; therefore this is so intune with Lawrence's ideas of 'blood consciousness' and the ties of humans to nature and animals. Even his "startling quick intelligence" reminds me of the cunning of certain animals - the wolf comes to mind and I think also of Lawrence well known short book - "The Fox." The last part - about the "lean deft brown hands" recalls me to the book about the gypsy - he would be described like this. In fact in "The Virgin and the Gypsy" his hands are actually emphasised in a kind of cleansing routine. Like the gypsy, Romero is quiet and within himself and not "forthcoming, chatty or cossy."
Yes, Dollie has a romanticized perception.Quote:
Another indication that Romero is not much of a conversationalist. I think this would also refer to the Jews as being more chatty and intellectual in nature, but I am not sure. Jews were not always looked on favorably by the English back then.
The 'spark' again and the fact that the tourists were not alive enough to perceive it. Only The Princess detects this spark. Interesting parellel here again with "The Virgin and The Gypsy". The people around the woman protaganist - none could see what she sees. Same as with this story. It is all in the perception.
Yes, that demon is a rather amorphous concept of Lawrence. I'm not sure exactly what to make of it.Quote:
Again, pretty specific about the 'demon' and one can see that she does not percieve that a demon is a bad thing, but a good thing...her father instilled this idea in her...."a fine demon"....therefore she see Romero in this light at this part of the story.
Cool, :Dare you on now? I hope you be careful though. It might be nothing but you can't be sure. You really should wait till nightime to post. More happens at night here anyway...lots of night-owls like me!;):lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
No, not really, remember when I asked you, if we did this 'longish' story, if you could post segments that would not overwhelm me? I think when I saw that last chunk of text, I moaned and then quickly departed and put off answering it - I get overwhelmed when you throw too much at me at once. My feeble brain just works that way. I am more detailed minded and have to work by stages - it has always been that way with me - maybe I have a little bit of attention deficit; I can work in a perimeter only if I keep it organised - jumping around from beginning to end and then to middle is just not possible for me. I have to build my concept of the story starting from the first parts of text. Can you understand this? That is why I limited myself last night and before to only a few of the text paragraphs - then I could zero in and really see what was going on. That way I can post and appear brilliant....just kidding with you...I'm a little more humble than that. Literature does not actually come easy to me, Virgil, remember I am an artist first in my soul and I think actually this is why I am drawn to authors like Hardy and Lawrence - because they both were artistic and they both use words like paint - very visual authors indeed. I have to look at their canvas and see the individual words and they are like brush strokes and they add up eventually to the entire painting - the story and the concept. See what I am driving at?Quote:
I thought you wanted me to move faster. :lol: Ok, we'll slow down.
This is true but don't you think that she saw the wild animal qualities in Romero; she definitely, perhaps subconsciously, wants to get him alone. Then she does and is terrified actually - still the magnetism is there, drawing her upward into the mountains - she does feel desire but then she turns it off at some point....it is true she wants it to be romanticized - definitely!Quote:
Janine, this is an excellent find, something I had never picked up. To characterize Romero as "animalistic" is very important to the story. The reason Dollie gives for going on her adventure that leads to the climax is that she wanted to see the wild animals in their environment. I don't have the eact quote but i will certainly highlight it when we get to it. The fact that she can't see Romero's inherent animalism is a statement in itself. She doesn't really want to see the wild animals in their reality; she wants to see a romanitcized version of the wild animals.
Good, we are on the same page with this one.Quote:
Very good thoughts.
This is true; hey, I think most woman are romantists, don't you? I don't see that Romera would be the type to entertain her whims of romantism....he is not the 'wine and dinner' type. He is more the natural man - no fuss, but so connected to the environment and sensual in his own way. In actuality I do find that quality romantic and sometimes an aloof man can really turn a woman on - don't know if it is the challenge of it or what. There is something internal that is like a spark indeed and a brillance that only some can percieve. I don't know exactly what Dollie wanted from him but I do think she wanted the whole package - she was intrigued by his animalistic allure and yet she also wanted the refinement and the communication. Romero can only provide the one and not all for her. I think this also is key to the outcome. As soon as his 'animal' takes over she is blind to the spark, she is immediately turned off and finds him repulsive. The fact that this early passage describes him as not like other Mexican's indicates to me that she saw him differently or perceived more refinement there than actually was. It is hard to say, Romero may have been a mix also, but his animalistic, sensual instincts take over...much like in other stories - such as "The Fox" and "The Virgin and the Gypsy". But in this tale the man is up against the opposition with the rejection at the end; this makes him totally go animalistic. He may have been softer if she has connected with him - more like Rupert in WIL, but the rejection of his manhood send him off on a path of utter destruction. His manhood and the phallis are insulted.Quote:
Yes, Dollie has a romanticized perception.
I still need to refer to the letters for more direct references from Lawrence on his ideas of the demom. If you recall, in the film about Lawrence - "Coming Through", he speaks directly about this 'demon' several times, his own and others. I will look for the segments on Youtube. I know there are a few now; I requested the poem "Violets" and one person has a lot of Lawrence stuff, so they put up the video for me; very nice of them. I know the one about the school poem is on there, which leads into the group session and someone does refer his 'demon' in that scene, I believe. Then there is the one where he mentions the demon, when talking to his best friends, the Hopkins, about Freida. I will find those and send them to you or post here - they shed light on the idea, I believe. He also spoke of Sarah Bernhardt with 'all her demons pouring forth'....forget the rest of the line, but I know where to find the video of that, also....and it will explain it better to you. Lawrence saw 'demons' not as devils, I think, but as the darker side of man and necessary for the whole furfillment of self. It was his philosophy....it is hard to explain, unless you have more knowledge of Lawrence, which you do indeed and so do I. I guess for Dark Muse, she could relate this to Poe and the 'dark side' he exhibits in so much of his work, which makes the 'light' even brighter and more illuminating, when one does perceive it; although Lawrence is more 'even' than Poe in my mind, more 'balanced' in the idea or concept of man possessing two distinct sides of the coin - sort of like the 'ying-yang' concept. Do you know what I mean? 'demon' is not the devil per ce, but more like God possessing both the light and the darkness - thus man being fashioned after God's image also possessiong both - light and the darkness of his true nature.Quote:
Yes, that demon is a rather amorphous concept of Lawrence. I'm not sure exactly what to make of it.
That sort of falls in line with my own personal philosophy, as well the idea of the balance and the equal importance of darkness to light is a part of my beliefs and that sort of relates to my own personal relationship with the "dark." I believe everyone does have a dark half, and that it should not necessarily be completely shunned but should be embraced as a part of what makes a person who they are. It does not mean a person must be evil or bad, but they should accept both sides of themselves instead of trying to oppress it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Exactly! and that is just what Lawrence believed; at least this is how I read him. I knew somehow instinctively, you would get the concept and relate to it. Probably why you have become such an ardent Lawrence commentor here. When you read "Women in Love" and you will see more of this concept spelled out. "The Fox" is not long; and there too, you can see this idea. I just read "The Virgin and the Gypsy", also a short book, and that will show you the way Lawrence thought, especially when the concept is realised....the transfiguration is realised.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Ok, I am editing this: wished to add the links to the film. I use the films as added tools to study Lawrence; this one was taken from good research resources and the film concentrates on the poetry from that time in L's young life; these concepts that follow him all throughout his life and are developed later, are evident here.
This one is a good one, about half way through he tells about the Sarah Bernhardt experience - this is true. I read this account in two biographies. In fact, the real event actually did terrify Lawrence so profoundly that he had to leave the theater. This is in his early life, but obviously the 'demon' concept is one he explores later, in great depth.
A very young Kenneth Branagh plays young Bert (Lawrence) in "Coming Through",
screenplay by Alan Platter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJbJL...FD666B&index=2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpINm...FD666B&index=1
These also will give you some bit of insight into the notion of his 'demon' - about
half through this second video, he consults his friends about Frieda and the wife mentions his 'demon' ...his reply is interesting, so is the discussion between the three.
I love the part about the Michelangleo sculptures, 'naked and vulnerable' and 'beautiful.' I read this part in a letter of Lawrence's, as well, so it is true; at least, that he thought this and stated it.
Be sure and see all of the video - the poem, he recites in the rain, is so beautiful - one of my favorites. I love the part of the scene, when he is consulting with his married friends. It feels so authentic to Lawrence, with his many conflicts. Branagh did a good job portraying young Bert, he must have lost weight for the role, he is quite thin here.
Enjoy these. I requested, of the person posting these, the other one I was thinking of, which follows a poem he wrote about 'teaching and schools'. At least I think 'demon' is mentioned there, too.
Well, I haven't been able to get on since. :( I don't understand why sometimes yes and sometimes no.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I guess. Ok.Quote:
No, not really, remember when I asked you, if we did this 'longish' story, if you could post segments that would not overwhelm me? I think when I saw that last chunk of text, I moaned and then quickly departed and put off answering it - I get overwhelmed when you throw too much at me at once. My feeble brain just works that way. I am more detailed minded and have to work by stages - it has always been that way with me - maybe I have a little bit of attention deficit; I can work in a perimeter only if I keep it organised - jumping around from beginning to end and then to middle is just not possible for me. I have to build my concept of the story starting from the first parts of text. Can you understand this? That is why I limited myself last night and before to only a few of the text paragraphs - then I could zero in and really see what was going on.
Yes. But you do a good job of understanding literature.Quote:
That way I can post and appear brilliant....just kidding with you...I'm a little more humble than that. Literature does not actually come easy to me, Virgil, remember I am an artist first in my soul and I think actually this is why I am drawn to authors like Hardy and Lawrence - because they both were artistic and they both use words like paint - very visual authors indeed. I have to look at their canvas and see the individual words and they are like brush strokes and they add up eventually to the entire painting - the story and the concept. See what I am driving at?
True, she does. But perhaps she only wants to see the wild animal in Romero. I don't think she fully comprehends what it means to experience the wild.Quote:
This is true but don't you think that she saw the wild animal qualities in Romero; she definitely, perhaps subconsciously, wants to get him alone. Then she does and is terrified actually - still the magnetism is there, drawing her upward into the mountains - she does feel desire but then she turns it off at some point....it is true she wants it to be romanticized - definitely!
:lol: No I can't see him in a candle lit French restaurant with a glass of Bordeaux. :DQuote:
This is true; hey, I think most woman are romantists, don't you? I don't see that Romera would be the type to entertain her whims of romantism....he is not the 'wine and dinner' type.
Perhaps she did. And under regular circumstances, perhaps Romero could have given the refinement and communication. Perhaps the wilderness changes him, or opens upa part of him that was kept closed. We'll have to see later.Quote:
He is more the natural man - no fuss, but so connected to the environment and sensual in his own way. In actuality I do find that quality romantic and sometimes an aloof man can really turn a woman on - don't know if it is the challenge of it or what. There is something internal that is like a spark indeed and a brillance that only some can percieve. I don't know exactly what Dollie wanted from him but I do think she wanted the whole package - she was intrigued by his animalistic allure and yet she also wanted the refinement and the communication.
Yes I agree, but also see my comment on the paragraph above.Quote:
Romero can only provide the one and not all for her. I think this also is key to the outcome. As soon as his 'animal' takes over she is blind to the spark, she is immediately turned off and finds him repulsive. The fact that this early passage describes him as not like other Mexican's indicates to me that she saw him differently or perceived more refinement there than actually was. It is hard to say, Romero may have been a mix also, but his animalistic, sensual instincts take over...much like in other stories - such as "The Fox" and "The Virgin and the Gypsy". But in this tale the man is up against the opposition with the rejection at the end; this makes him totally go animalistic. He may have been softer if she has connected with him - more like Rupert in WIL, but the rejection of his manhood send him off on a path of utter destruction. His manhood and the phallis are insulted.
Lawrence would agree with that Muse. That is very Lawrentian.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Perhaps Lawrence just had a bit of an inner Pagan hahahaha :D
Oh yes he did. The older he got the more pagan he became. I will have to direct you to his pagan work. I think that demon, whatever he meant by it, was an attempt to associate with a pagan element.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Have either of you watched the Youtube clips I provided? It will only take a few minutes to view. They are both short excerpts. I think it gives some insight into the 'demon', which to Lawrence was not a bad thing at all, more a freeing from society's rules and embrassing the deeper/darker element in the makeup of the individual.
Anyway, could one of you actually define 'pagan'? I am vague on it's actual meaning.