D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

I was just disagreeing with Virgil saying that Romero's actions were unexplaained. Becasue I felt that they were.

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To an extend I felt they were also. Afterall, she egged him on and then put him down, when he was feeling most manly after their intimacy at night. Who wouldn't go a little wild, after the cold way she treated him? I think that was the point, Lawrence was making. I don't think he was condemning either of them; Lawrence seems more forgiving to me than that. I think he sets up the story, with her background to show how she will react. She has definitely been affected by her father's treatment in the past. We don't really know how Romano has been treated in his past, but we can perhaps assume it may not have been too great. Maybe being dark skinned and of Spanish ancestry, living among the white population in this region, he has undergone prejudices, and therefore feels defensive when she rejects him personally. I think Lawrence presents the two people and shows how they both have major flaws in character. I don't see Lawrence as being totally one-sided here. I think he simply set out to tell a story with deeper implications. Like I said, we can delve further into the whole ending, which I think is quite intricate, before we fully understand the complete meaning of the story...also it all takes time to sink in. I know, I now need a second reading of the ending; that way I will get more out of it and see it clearer.

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She was so assured, and her flower of maidenhood was so scentless. She could look at a lusty, sensual Roman cabman as if he were a sort of grotesque, to make her smile. She knew all about him, in Zola. And the peculiar condescension with which she would give him her order, as if she, frail, beautiful thing, were the only reality, and he, coarse monster, was a sort of Caliban floundering in the mud on the margin of the pool of the perfect lotus, would suddenly enrage the fellow, the real Mediterranean who prided himself on his beauté male, and to whom the phallic mystery was still the only mystery. And he would turn a terrible face on her, bully her in a brutal, coarse fashion--hideous. For to him she had only the blasphemous impertinence of her own sterility.

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Though I do not know as much about Lawrence as the two of you, just reading this passage, I personally do not find it to be particularly flattering of the Cabman. It does not to me illicit for him any feeling of sympathy. I agree what it is a foreboding of what is late to come within the story, but when first reading it I also felt it was a sign of The Princess' growing into sexual maturity. The fact that she is so child-like and unaware of her coming into womanhood because she does not really think in those terms. She is no confronted with others trying to treat her as a sexual being, because she is now being noticed as a woman in spite of the fact that she herself is not truly aware of such thing.

In spite of what may have been intended, I cannot help but to see her as anything but a heroine here.

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Never for one minute could she see with the old Roman eyes, see herself as sterility, the barren flower taking on airs and an intolerable impertinence. This was what the Roman cabman saw in her. And he longed to crush the barren blossom. Its sexless beauty and its authority put him in a passion of brutal revolt.

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Considering the importance of her Scottish heritage in this story, I find it quite interesting the use of "Roman eyes" and the Roman Cabman.

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And he longed to crush the barren blossom. Its sexless beauty and its authority put him in a passion of brutal revolt.

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This seems to be an almost metaphoric reflection of the conquer of the Celts by Rome. The wild heathens being crushed under the foot of Roman authority.

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But we are in exile in the world. We are powerless. If we were really poor, we should be quite powerless, and then I should die. No, my Princess. Let us take their money, then they will not dare to be rude to us. Let us take it, as we put on clothes, to cover ourselves from their aggressions."

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The importance, and strength of their demons, has no power within the "real" world, the "physical" world in which they are forced to live, and so they know because there spirits alone cannot compete with the physical power of those they place themselves above, they need the protection of physical and material things to make their way within the world.

I think I will stop here for now, sense there was a lot of text posted. I will comment on the rest later.

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Considering the importance of her Scottish heritage in this story, I find it quite interesting the use of "Roman eyes" and the Roman Cabman.

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"And he longed to crush the barren blossom. Its sexless beauty and its authority put him in a passion of brutal revolt."

This seems to be an almost metaphoric reflection of the conquer of the Celts by Rome. The wild heathens being crushed under the foot of Roman authority.

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You trying to start a war with our Virgil? You know he will react to this part - he is an old Roman, himself...:lol:

But seriously, I can certainly see your point of view on this story. I think this is one of Lawrence's more difficult stories to discuss.

Maybe Virgil can better answer your post. I know this is a late Lawrence work and that is significant to point out. Most likely, Virgil, can explain this idea to you, that crops up in his later writing. This story has a lot to do with the theme of the thesis Virgil wrote for his masters. He can shed more light on the idea Lawrence had of 'transfiguration'. In the stories of 'The Horse-Dealer's Daughter' and 'The Virgin and the Gypsy', the women both do experience a 'transfiguration'. In this story, it is just the opposite. The heroine, the Princess, is not affected or altered by her sexual experience with Romano. She is kept intact; exactly why the end states that she remained a virgin. In "Lady Chatterly's Lover", again the awakening of Connie's female sexuality and sensuality is evident and a result of her intimacy with Mellors, the gamekeeper. However, in 'The Princess', this does not occur. In most of Lawrence's work, he has strived for this awakening for the woman. Most likely he did view Dolly as a failed transfiguration.

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Originally Posted by Janine

You trying to start a war with our Virgil? You know he will react to this part - he is an old Roman, himself...:lol:

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Hahahaha! Well I am a Celt

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

Hahahaha! Well I am a Celt

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Seriously he is....I can't wait to see how responds to what you wrote.:lol: It should be interesting. Anyway, glad you found the humor in that. You know how those hot Italians are.;)

I am English mainly, with some French thrown in and there is suppose to be a bit of American Indian blood, somewhere in my family tree. I guess, if I am English I can relate back to the Celts, too. :) I certainly love Celtic lore and Celtic designs are wonderful - love the intricate knots.

I posted some artwork in the Artist Cafe today - some Thomas Eakins. I also posted a lot in the children illustration thread - hey, Dark Muse, where you been lately? Haven't seen you in the illustration threads I started for awhile now and you always post such interesting illustrators; help, I need some support.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

I was just disagreeing with Virgil saying that Romero's actions were unexplaained. Becasue I felt that they were.

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Oh I see what you're saying. Ok perhaps. I don't remember now. We'll get to it eventually. :)

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

Hahahaha! Well I am a Celt

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:lol: Well, you got part Italian I know. I don't have time right now to read all the posts. Later tonight I hope.

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Originally Posted by Janine

I posted some artwork in the Artist Cafe today - some Thomas Eakins. I also posted a lot in the children illustration thread - hey, Dark Muse, where you been lately? Haven't seen you in the illustration threads I started for awhile now and you always post such interesting illustrators; help, I need some support.

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Yeah I know I have not been around the illustration threads as of late. I will try and pop in again sometime soon.

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Originally Posted by Janine

I really like the line about her being a scentless flower - there again the flower image reappears in Lawrence's mind and writing; the perfect flower representative of the perfect state of being. In this case, the scentless flower, definitely indicates a lack of the full quality of a flower, thus the human-being.

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Yes!

I guess there isn't anything else in the posts for me to comment on. I guess both of you agree on Lawrence's phallic mystery. Janine, you can now see why I think Lawrence was very sexist, especially his later writing. I think you are right about his early career in that he was somewhat sympathetic to women, but even then there are questionable moments. But they aren't very questionable in the later part of his life. You can almost read Lady Chatterly as a woman who is married to a man who is incable of phallic power but finds a lover who is and in which she succumbs to him.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Yes!

I guess there isn't anything else in the posts for me to comment on. I guess both of you agree on Lawrence's phallic mystery. Janine, you can now see why I think Lawrence was very sexist, especially his later writing. I think you are right about his early career in that he was somewhat sympathetic to women, but even then there are questionable moments. But they aren't very questionable in the later part of his life. You can almost read Lady Chatterly as a woman who is married to a man who is incable of phallic power but finds a lover who is and in which she succumbs to him.

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Well, as true as this may seem to you, I still see Lawrence as a greatly undecided man on the issue of woman; I can't just simply state that he was 'sexist'; I suppose I don't particularly like to label him that or his work. Maybe I am just too loyal to Lawrence.;) It would be nice to hear it from his own mouth. Yet at times, I can see why the feminists were angry with him, but I don't think they looked at the complete picture. I think he had a great deal of fear when it came to women and their power over men; but at the same time he seems to respect them; sometimes even to elevate them in an offhand manner. For instance, even in "Lady Chatterly's Lover", the entire novel revolves around Connie and her physical/psychological needs as a woman. I don't know how you can say Mellors is dominent or all powerful. I think Lawrence paints the clearest picture of Connie - he really delves beneath the surface of the women in his all of his novels. In "The Virgin and the Gypsy", he also basically concentrates on the young woman and her feelings. I don't recall being privy to any of the inner thoughts of the gypsy man, but it has been awhile, since I actually read it. I saw the film version recently. In that, I did not feel that the gypsy forced his will upon her; if he did he did in such a subtle way and he was very sweet actually. There are a lot of decrepencies throughout Lawrence's work and I just still can't bring myself to be definite on this subject. I know that sounds confusing.

At anyrate, I think that when he wrote this short story - 'The Princess' Lawrence was quite perturbed with Brett and the story is fashioned after her. In this same time period he also wrote 'The Woman Who Rode Away' and he fashioned that after Mabel Luhan, I believe. He was perturbed at her during this period, also. Lawrence got perturbed at a lot of people.;) I If he was here today, he might be perturbed at you, too.:lol:

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Originally Posted by Janine

Maybe I am just too loyal to Lawrence

If he was here today, he might be perturbed at you, too.:lol:

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:lol: Or at you. :p I'm loyal to him and maybe I'm just as sexist. :D

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Originally Posted by Virgil

:lol: Or at you. :p I'm loyal to him and maybe I'm just as sexist. :D

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Now that may be a truism! :lol:

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The father was something of a poet, the daughter something of a painter. He wrote poems about the lakes or the redwood trees, and she made dainty drawings. He was physically a strong man, and he loved the out-of-doors. He would go off with her for days, paddling in a canoe and sleeping by a camp-fire. Frail little Princess, she was always undaunted, always undaunted. She would ride with him on horseback over the mountain trails till she was so tired she was nothing but a bodiless consciousness sitting astride her pony. But she never gave in. And at night he folded her in her blanket on a bed of balsam pine twigs, and she lay and looked at the stars unmurmuring. She was fulfilling her rôle.

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This seemed interesting to me. All the time they spent in Europe, there was no indication of their engaging in out door activities. They seemed much more inclined to the social scene while they were over seas. More "civil" though now that they are forced to spend time in America, there seems to be this frontier romanticism that begins to take hold. Spending there time camping, canoeing, horseback riding, painting scenes of nature.

Also interesting the places they are mentioned to visit California and the South-West, places that are rooted in the "Wild west." Opposed to spending time in places such as New York, which would seem to be more fitting of their lifestyle over in Europe.

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People said to her as the years passed, and she was a woman of twenty-five, then a woman of thirty, and always the same virgin dainty Princess, 'knowing' in a dispassionate way, like an old woman, and utterly intact:

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This is a curious contradiction from the rest of the story. The association with her as an old woman here, in contrast to the previous child-like aspect of her nature. It also seems to serve as to paint her in the picture of a spinster, there is almost something cynical about its use here.

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So the years passed imperceptibly. And she had that quality of the sexless fairies, she did not change. At thirty-three she looked twenty-three.

Her father, however, was ageing, and becoming more and more queer.

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This I found to be interesting, the way in which she seems to pass the years unchanged, the father on the other hand does not remain quite as untouched by time as The Princess. Not only does he begin the physical process of aging, but his looks begin to show signs of it:

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handsome, white-haired, courteous old man

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Something which never seems to afflict The Princess, but it also changes begins to ravish upon his mind as well.

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He spent the last three years of life in the house in Connecticut. He was very much estranged, sometimes had fits of violence which almost killed the little Princess.

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who was never at all aware of his fits of violence once they had passed.

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He seems to be suffering from a sort of dementia. In this way he does come across as being much more human then The Princess is.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

This seemed interesting to me. All the time they spent in Europe, there was no indication of their engaging in out door activities. They seemed much more inclined to the social scene while they were over seas. More "civil" though now that they are forced to spend time in America, there seems to be this frontier romanticism that begins to take hold. Spending there time camping, canoeing, horseback writing, painting scenes of nature.

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Yes that is interesting. It's connected with your next statement:

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Also interesting the places they are mentioned to visit California and the South-West, places that are rooted in the "Wild west." Opposed to spending time in places such as New York, which would seem to be more fitting of their lifestyle over in Europe.

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These are the places Lawrence was exploring. I think Janine has mentioned Dollie was based on a woman who came to live on Lawrfence's ranch in New Mexico. Her name is Dorothy Brett and she came to idolize Lawrence. At first Lawrence loved having a devotee around but later he grew tired of her. She had some personality quirks. I think much of the story captures her personality, at least as Lawrence saw it. She was a painter http://medicinemangallery.com/bio/dorothybrett.lassoand I think you can see some of her paintings here: http://images.google.com/images?um=1...=Search+Images

These are the women that surrounded Lawrence while he lived in New Mexico.

http://www.cla.purdue.edu/waaw/Jacob...ncebrett-m.jpg
From right to left: Mabel Luhan, Frieda Lawrence (his wife), and Dorothy.

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This is a curious contradiction from the rest of the story. The association with her as an old woman here, in contrast to the previous child-like aspect of her nature. It also seems to serve as to paint her in the picture of a spinster, there is almost something cynical about its use here.

This I found to be interesting, the way in which she seems to pass the years unchanged, the father on the other hand does not remain quite as untouched by time as The Princess. Not only does he begin the physical process of aging, but his looks begin to show signs of it:

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Well that's arrested development. ;)

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He seems to be suffering from a sort of dementia. In this way he does come across as being much more human then The Princess is.

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Yes there differences between father and daughter. They are not alike. He is constantly referred to as having a "demon" in him. I'll give some thoughts on this later. But his madness too also echoes Romero. I'm not sure what the connection is, but it seems that everyone around Dollie gets enraged in some form or other.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

I'm not sure what the connection is, but it seems that everyone around Dollie gets enraged in some form or other.

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Haha that is just becasue they have thier masculinity insulted becasue she turns them all down and is not impressed by thier maleness. :D I say Go Dollie!

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

Haha that is just becasue they have thier masculinity insulted becasue she turns them all down and is not impressed by thier maleness. :D I say Go Dollie!

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:lol: Loved that.