Mozart in English

Patrick,

Nobody is 'privy' to information. It has to be sought. That takes a lot of time. And, when it has been examined we can then say with certainty that things are so. The commentators and historians to which you refer appear to be unable to answer basic questions about Mozart's early and later career. So, if they are worthy of your respect and belief why not give us their actual statements on these issues ? Just a few will do.

We all inherited this problem. The difference is that criticism finally got a hearing. And it came with lots of good arguments. Welcome to the real world of academic research. Compare this with what we have been 'taught'. You see that one side lives in a vacuum free from criticism and the other is ready and willing to examine these issues fairly, openly and honestly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Patrick_Bateman

I have several posts that force a convincing argument and they are backed up with as much evidence as Musicology's posts...none.

I can only use what I read, hear and see from true authorities on the topic.

That musicology believes he is privy to information and 'evidence' that all these commentators and historians are not seems very remote.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Patrick_Bateman

I have several posts that force a convincing argument and they are backed up with as much evidence as Musicology's posts...none.

I can only use what I read, hear and see from true authorities on the topic.

That musicology believes he is privy to information and 'evidence' that all these commentators and historians are not seems very remote.

---

My friend, my advice is to post the music you have been listening to in the classical music thread. Alternatively, you could post the films you have been watching in the film thread. Or look to the jazz thread, or the crush thread etc, etc...:smilewinkgrin:

"Bateman" huh?
Good choice, heh-heh, but the subject IS exhausted!
And, indeed, Musicology is, most propably, privy to more information than he cares to admit!

I liken you two gentlemen to the myriad of Kennedy conspiracy theorists. If you over analyse every shred of data you are bound to equate 2 + 2 as 5.

There is evidence that links the CIA to JFK's assassination, evidence that proves the Mafia as accountable. Some clues point to Cuban ex pats who felt betrayed by the Kennedy administration as the culprits. Other findings attribute the assassination to the Russians and other Communist agents. Even claims that J. Edgar Hoover and LBJ were behind it have found credence. (All these huge clouds over what really happened and the evidence is not yet 50 years old, whereas fellas you are trying to overhaul 2 centuries of fact with weak 'evidence' from sources which you have not divulged.) Even when primary evidence disproves your theory (you brought up the playbill earlier) you disregard it as a lie or Mozart's fabrication. On what grounds may I ask? Are you so omniscient that you can obliterate all evidence contrary to your beliefs so that it supports your fantasy?

In many things it is usually advisable to call a spade a spade. In conclusion gentlemen

Mozart was a genius of immeasurable talent.

Now if you will excuse me... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2IHh...layer_embedded

This thread is a thing of beauty.

:smilewinkgrin:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neely

My friend, my advice is to post the music you have been listening to in the classical music thread. Alternatively, you could post the films you have been watching in the film thread. Or look to the jazz thread, or the crush thread etc, etc...:smilewinkgrin:

---

Don't tell me you are a proponent of this dastardly denigration of a musical visionary?

Patrick,

The reason we think you are wrong is simple. You cannot provide evidence when you are asked for it. You've been hugely misinformed on virtually every aspect of Mozart's life and career. This is not your fault. It's just a fact. I have been writing to your supposed 'experts' for years on these points. They are simply not able to provide any evidence on basic issues. When you show them documentary and other evidence their eyes glaze over, they look at their watch and have another appointment. Others (more honest) wink and admit that it's all nonsense. A pattern has emerged. You've been grossly misinformed.

So, you choose the Mozart myth or the one of actual reality. The one we find in close study of biographical and musical evidence or the one the industry has created for you.

I will resist the temptation to comment on the litany of conspiracy theories you refer to. My business is to point you to the facts, to raise questions on conventions, and to ask if you really are interested in a fair and honest discussion.

Thank You

I leave it here with a celebration at the fall of Babylon -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA_et...eature=related

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Patrick_Bateman

I liken you two gentlemen to the myriad of Kennedy conspiracy theorists. If you over analyse every shred of data you are bound to equate 2 + 2 as 5.

There is evidence that links the CIA to JFK's assassination, evidence that proves the Mafia as accountable. Some clues point to Cuban ex pats who felt betrayed by the Kennedy administration as the culprits. Other findings attribute the assassination to the Russians and other Communist agents. Even claims that J. Edgar Hoover and LBJ were behind it have found credence. (All these huge clouds over what really happened and the evidence is not yet 50 years old, whereas fellas you are trying to overhaul 2 centuries of fact with weak 'evidence' from sources which you have not divulged.) Even when primary evidence disproves your theory (you brought up the playbill earlier) you disregard it as a lie or Mozart's fabrication. On what grounds may I ask? Are you so omniscient that you can obliterate all evidence contrary to your beliefs so that it supports your fantasy?

In many things it is usually advisable to call a spade a spade. In conclusion gentlemen

Mozart was a genius of immeasurable talent.

Now if you will excuse me... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2IHh...layer_embedded

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Musicology

Patrick,

The reason we think you are wrong is simple. You cannot provide evidence when you are asked for it. You've been hugely misinformed on virtually every aspect of Mozart's life and career. This is not your fault. It's just a fact. I have been writing to your supposed 'experts' for years on these points. They are simply not able to provide any evidence on basic issues. When you show them documentary and other evidence their eyes glaze over, they look at their watch and have another appointment. Others (more honest) wink and admit that it's all nonsense. A pattern has emerged. You've been grossly misinformed.

So, you choose the Mozart myth or the one of actual reality. The one we find in close study of biographical and musical evidence or the one the industry has created for you.

I will resist the temptation to comment on the litany of conspiracy theories you refer to. My business is to point you to the facts, to raise questions on conventions, and to ask if you really are interested in a fair and honest discussion.

Thank You

I leave it here with a celebration at the fall of Babylon -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA_et...eature=related

---

I cannot believe that all these men and women have dedicated their lives to a lie which - according to you - is so blatant and that only you have seen the light and know the 'truth'. If the 'facts' are in such abundance and your 'evidence' of the falsehoods and 'evidence' against the Mozart myth are so clear cut then why is it that I can only discover this 'truth' on an internet message forum?

People love controversy and people love even more to be controversial and go against the grain. So why has someone not pounced on this and shown Mozart to be the fraud he apparently is?

The evidence is in primary sources and contemporary accounts, myriad letters and other correspondence. Payments Mozart received, the royalties his son received as soon as copyright laws and artists right were being created in the early 19th century.

Haydn himself extolled Mozart's talents.
It is known that Mozart imitated other composers and improved upon their works but this was usually only an exercise in displaying his superiority over other composers as well as showing a reverence for the composers he admired (such as Bach, Handel and his good buddy Franz Josef Haydn) but the accusations and very idea that Mozart stole from other composers is unfounded.


I ask you sir for your evidence.

Kindly send me one of these emails you so frequently dispatch to my 'experts' that cause them to cower and recoil and scramble for explanations.

Robert,
It has been a long time my friend. If I may beg your pardon to interrupt the current line of discussion regarding Mozart and the Italian Job, I would like to address an earlier post submitted by Mr. Patrick Bateman.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Patrick_Bateman

...I'm visiting Salzburg and Vienna in September (kill 2 birds with one stone and get a bit of Johann Strauss II appreciation in there too.) It's getting to the point where I am actually considering eclipsing my Batman and Danmgermouse costumes and going to Reading Festival 2011 dressed up as the maestro.

---

Patrick, you mentioned that you will be visiting Salzburg in a few months. Upon reading this, I became very excited and envious. Salzburg was a destination of mine back in 1988. I still recall humming the tune Edelweiss while snacking on a Mozartkugeln as I entered Getreidegasse 9. Salzburg Cathedral, St. Peter’s and the accompanying cemetery is wonderful and the view of the Salzach river from the Hohensalzburg castle is breathtaking.

You mentioned “2 birds”, why not shoot for three? This is a perfect opportunity to dispel the mystery behind Mozart’s early education. Oh…forgive me, I see you are wondering what in the heck is he talking about? Please refer to post no. 10 of this thread.

If you could possibly set aside perhaps one hour during your visit and head up to the hermitage in the cliffs overlooking St. Peters and the cemetery to verify if Andiamo Burmudez de Azpeitia (aka “The Bermuda Triangle” among his hermit contemporaries) slate tablets are still on display. At the time I visited, the tablets were set in a small niche carved into the stone wall of Andiamo’s hermit cell.

The conspiracy theorists and Dumas would forever be in your debt.


.

All four members of the 'Mozart Justice Squad' on here appear to have the same unpalatable condescending and supercilious tone. Funny that, especially since one of the four is clearly Musicology's alter ego.

Desperate times really do call for desperate measures.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilliatt Gurgle

Robert,
It has been a long time my friend. If I may beg your pardon to interrupt the current line of discussion regarding Mozart and the Italian Job, I would like to address an earlier post submitted by Mr. Patrick Bateman.



Patrick, you mentioned that you will be visiting Salzburg in a few months. Upon reading this, I became very excited and envious. Salzburg was a destination of mine back in 1988. I still recall humming the tune Edelweiss while snacking on a Mozartkugeln as I entered Getreidegasse 9. Salzburg Cathedral, St. Peter’s and the accompanying cemetery is wonderful and the view of the Salzach river from the Hohensalzburg castle is breathtaking.

You mentioned “2 birds”, why not shoot for three? This is a perfect opportunity to dispel the mystery behind Mozart’s early education. Oh…forgive me, I see you are wondering what in the heck is he talking about? Please refer to post no. 10 of this thread.

If you could possibly set aside perhaps one hour during your visit and head up to the hermitage in the cliffs overlooking St. Peters and the cemetery to verify if Andiamo Burmudez de Azpeitia (aka “The Bermuda Triangle” among his hermit contemporaries) slate tablets are still on display. At the time I visited, the tablets were set in a small niche carved into the stone wall of Andiamo’s hermit cell.

The conspiracy theorists and Dumas would forever be in your debt.


.

---

Thank you for your proposed amendments to my itinerary. I shall take them into consideration.

It seems Musicology has declined my challenge.

He cannot overturn over 200 years of musical history like he claims

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Patrick_Bateman

Don't tell me you are a proponent of this dastardly denigration of a musical visionary?

---

What? What? Don't suggest such a thing - how could you?

I was merely trying to save you :mad2:time.

I'm hurt and wounded. I think you should PM me a beer as recompense...enjoy the trip though, it should be amazing. Pah, thinking Neely could get caught up in this.

[QUOTE=yanni;1029772 ...but the subject IS exhausted!
[/QUOTE]

If only! But it isn't, because Musicology has no intention of allowing it to be. After all, what would he do with his spare time were it not for this thread and its forerunner that he initiated months (though it seems like years) ago?
Of the innumerable quotes he has made throughout the course of his dissertation, it's significant that the one that stays in the mind is that of George W Bush warning about conspiracy theories.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neely

What? What? Don't suggest such a thing - how could you?

I was merely trying to save you :mad2:time.

I'm hurt and wounded. I think you should PM me a beer as recompense...enjoy the trip though, it should be amazing. Pah, thinking Neely could get caught up in this.

---

Ahhh I beseech you to pardon me squire.
I thought your post was telling me to do all those things because I am in my own fantasy land by not seeing 'the light'.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Patrick_Bateman

Ahhh I beseech you to pardon me squire.
I thought your post was telling me to do all those things because I am in my own fantasy land by not seeing 'the light'.

---

That's OK, that's the Internet/email for you isn't it - things can be read both ways? I'm still suffering minor heart palpitations from it, but I'll get over it...

I do think Musicology/Robert/Yanni figure should write a novel about it though - The Mozart Fakery - $quids in$, knock Dan Brown off the top spot and save us all the pain.

"Yanni" and "Musicology" both sign by their real names their conclusions (identical on Mozart's 'manufacture' at least), as any reader of re threads may find out.

As far as I am concerned: I joined this forum Dec 2005 aiming to confirm/expand my findings on an unknown 'greek side' of Edgar Allan*Poe , http://www.online-literature.com/for...esc&sort=views, a thread which has since attracted, by far,the most views and received the highest ratings on its subject.

"Musicology" appeared much later, attracted by my next threads (on Gluck, Grimm, Rousseau and the Opera Phantom, see http://www.online-literature.com/for...003#post639003 ), aiming to discuss his favorite and only subject, Mozart, limiting it however to a minimum.

Antonios Emm. Kokkinis, aka "Yanni", Athens, Greece.

PS My conclusions on a 'Koch-Koechel' manufactured Mozart (among other), are also crosschecked and reconfirmed by Dorothea Link's** "Mozart’s appointment to the Viennese court" (discrediting Koechel's conclusions).

http://www.aproposmozart.com/Link%20...dex,180707.pdf

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*"Allen" actually.
**Chair, Classical Music, Hodgson School of Music, The University of Georgia.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neely

That's OK, that's the Internet/email for you isn't it - things can be read both ways? I'm still suffering minor heart palpitations from it, but I'll get over it...

I do think Musicology/Robert/Yanni figure should write a novel about it though - The Mozart Fakery - $quids in$, knock Dan Brown off the top spot and save us all the pain.

---