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Well I happen to disagree. If you want to look at it in that light, then every human is a criminal every single day.
THAT'S THE ENTIRE POINT! That's why it shouldn't be illegal because the notion that these people are criminals is ludicrous. They shouldn't have to go to jail for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by sprinks
Legalising it implies that it's okay. It's not okay, it's NOT RIGHT.
There is a psychological reason for why they do it, it's not a choice. It is not the same as normal sexual attraction.
Maybe the law shouldn't be a jail sentence but an obligatory visit to councilling.
If something isn't illegal, it is legal, right? And referring you back to my quote at the top of page 17, is incest natural? No.
That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.Quote:
Originally Posted by kelby_lake
You amaze me, people, with your 'it's just NOT right', 'we are predisposed against it'{edit}. The truth is, you're just disgusted with incest and you're trying to find reasons to make your judgements accepted. That's all. You have every right to be disgusted with incest but who do you think you are to state that everyone should think your way and that you are the 'normal' ones while the others are not? That's totally crazy. I'm not normal either, you know, but I'm perfectly ok with it, I'm myself and I'll sleep with my brother if we're happy with it.
You're just trying to reassure yourself in saying that no, you're not like that, and by looking at people who are different from you with disgust in your eyes. This is not surprising though, as sad as it is. This is human beings.
Why do you waste your energy in trying to find pseudo-psychological reasons for a behavior which does not appeal to you? Some people think the same way about homosexuals, because oh my God that's not right, {edit} call the police and put them in jail so that we can forget that it exists! Ok, yiippeeeee, that's the world we live in.
Also, a lot of people here who are outraged when it comes to incest do not think for one second that behind the pseudo pathology, there might be love, that's all, just love, sometimes it happens. But it needs to be destroyed or transformed into something dirty and unacceptable, I wonder why.
I don't know, it just amazes me and depresses me at the same time to see that. Poeple who are so closed-minded that they don't realize they are because the strong barriers that have been put around them have become part of their little world, as everything else. That's the way it is for them and that's the way it should be for everyone. Hell, not for me.
Amen Sweets! You tell it like it is.
R e m i n d e r
Please discuss the ideas but not each other.
Posts resorting such comments will be deleted without any further notice.
You mention these things that are pretty much seen as universally immoral and using them to illustrate how legality = morality? Legality does not equal morality. It is legal to cheat on your spouse. I guess that makes it morally OK. It is illegal to sit at home and drink a beer at the age of 19. Doesn't make it immoral. In many middle eastern countries, it is legal to beat your wife. I guess that makes it moral. Oh, wait, maybe the legality = morality rule only applies to the United States; we have eveything down pat. I absolutley refuse to listen to the legality equals morality argument. There is a huge overlap, but I absolutley refuse to aknowledge a universal legality equals morality sentiment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
Anti, I don't want to drift off topic and I certainly support you in this argument, but I'm under the impression that no one can be turned away at the emergency room. Even illegal aliens.
Jay walking is illegal and people don't go to jail for it. I've gotten a ticket for not putting money in the parking meter. That's obviously illegal. My uncle actually got a ticket for spitting in the NYC subway platform. He was spitting onto the tracks. Spitting is illegal. I've said i don't believe these people who committed incest should not go to jail, but there needs to be a penalty and a boundary or right and wrong established.Quote:
Originally Posted by metal134
Anti, I think you're wrong on that. Yes they ask you for the insuance card, but they still have to treat you if you don't have one. I've been to emergency rooms with what I'm sure are illegal aliens. In fact a number of years ago, my father collapsed from heat and was taken to the hospital and he didn't have his medical card with him, and actually we couldn't find it back home for a couple of days. But they treated him and admitted him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
Yes I did say why. If legality does not equal morality, then something being legal doesn't mean it's OK and something being illegal doesn't mean it's not OK. Fairly cut and dry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
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Originally Posted by Virgil
I think that's right. I am not sure about the illegal alien part of it, but if there is an emergency, it seems like the hospital could get in trouble for NOT treating someone, so it's probably better to just treat everyone and then try to collect as much as possible later. I used to work for a non-profit hospital in the Accounting Department. The Mission Statement of the hospital was to provide treatment for everyone - it was a stated a little differently though, in that "Mission Statement" language, but that was the gist. And there are procedures for accounting for charity treatments, but I wasn't involved in that specific procedure. In fact, I wasn't involved in any kind of patient billing or collecting, but I did receive phone calls from patients who called the wrong number and I got chewed out a bunch. One lady screamed at me because she was turned over to a collection agency after going to the Emergency Room for a bladder infection. She put off treatment because she didn't have a job or health insurance and went to the emergency room when it was so bad that she couldn't stand it. She paid what she could and then was turned over to collection for the rest after she thought she had worked it out with patient billing. She then called me and gave me a piece of her mind. Normally, I don't stand for people chewing me out for things that aren't my fault and that I have no control over, so I just listened and did what I could to get her connected to the right person. I just felt kind of bad for her. That would suck!
(btw: this topic is still going strong! how funny!)
Hmm, some interesting points raised here. Just out of curiosity, if incest were not a criminal offence punishable by imprisonment what penalty would you propose? Would it be enough to put people off.
Sweets, appreciate you feel quite strongly about this one, primarily because you are concerned with love. From my experience, and no doubt from the experience of many others who have been in a position of sexual abuse at the hands of a family member, most frequently love has nothing to do with it. The law protects vulnerable people, especially children, from harm. If you start blurring the boudaries between what is and what isn't acceptable then it is likely that more children will be harmed. I'd prefer to live in a world where it's illegal for young girls to be groomed into sexual relationships with older relatives, than one where it isn't. But perhaps my opinion is clouded by personal experience. The law, in this respect, has protected me and I'm grateful for it. Perhaps you underestimate how easy it is for a juvinile to be groomed, perhaps you don't see the risk, but it is easy, and without the protection of the law, and with the acceptance of family where does the 12, 13, 14, 15, or 16 year old go for protection? It's easy to say 'if they love each other' but heck, even in non-incestuous relationships how many times have you, or I mistaken something for love which turned out not to be? What about when it's not about love? You can't write that into the law.
{edit}
I'm not trying to convince anyone, I'm just trying to make you see the barriers that are around you. You've been put into this way of thinking since you were born and you don't even know why incest is wrong, you just know that it is. I'm not saying incest is right, I'm just saying that it's neitehr right or wrong, it just is and I'm not going to tell anyone what they have to do with their asses and feelings. Saying that incest is right or wrong is the same as saying that the blue sky is right or wrong. That's nonsense. Incest can be wrong for you, but that does not make it wrong for the whole population. I think it's very sad that you're so into your opinion that you even deny the possibility of love in an incestuous relationship. That's scary.
Also, Antiquarian, I'm terrified when I hear you say that you would bring yor kid to a psychiatrist if he/she did something that you would not do yourself. Wow. Do you realize what that means? Some people do the same with their kids because of homosexuality. You would not do that, but you would still do it for incest. If you think that some people feel the same way about homosexuality as you feel about incest, maybe you can understand what I'm talking about. Imagine if everyone sent everyone to a psychiatrist everytime they do something which people find NOT right?
Once again you compare incest with things like murder which involve a victim. Incest does not involve a victim when both persons are ok with it. It is too easy and revolting to compare that to murder just to freak people out.
You don't know why I'm getting upset? Well, I'm getting upset when I see how the world is. Maybe you would get upset too if you were in love with your brother and people wanted to send you to a loony bin because of that. It's about freedom.
The whole question about 'should it or shouldn't it be legalized' is preposterous anyway, because of the word 'should'.
The fifthElement, you are mixing sexual abuse with consensual incest, that's nonsense and the same strategy as that of comparing it with murder. I don't know how you can say that it isn't about love. It's not black or white.
I don't think your experience should make you judge the whole thing. I myself might have had the experience you mention in my childhood, I'm not sure, but that will not blind me and make me judge others. To each their own story.
And about mistaking love with something that isn't, first nobody really knows what love is, but I think people are responsible for their own choices. I don't like this idea of always trying to prevent things from happening by forbidding everything. In that case I would not go out cause I might get hit by a car, we would actually forbid cars because they can cause death..... we could as well commit suicide right away.
But it is possible that incest could have a victim, if children are produced. They will most likely be ridiculed and have a horrible chlidhood if the truth about their parents is known, and also there is the possible genetic problems the child might have as a result. The child did nothing to deserve any of it, they are a victim of their parents relationship.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweets America
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Originally Posted by metal134
Okay, sorry, I wondered if that is the way you meant it, the way I read it first was that you were saying that they just aren't criminals regardless, not that they shouldn't be criminals. I apologise for kind of misinterpreting your words.
I'm talking about incest between two people, not about the kids that they can have. I already said that it was two different problems. About this question of the kids, here is what I have to say:Quote:
Originally Posted by sprinks
-no kid ever asks to be born, even with what you all call 'normal' parents. People who have kids always do so without asking for the kids' consent.
-instead of caring about what people will think, about the 'ridicule', it might be better to stand up for oneself, and those who ridicule you can really go to hell because they're a bunch of morons. Moreover, you don't need to be in this situation to have people think you're ridicule. I've had a horrible childhood myself and met horrible kids and people, but well, I survived. Impeding oneself from doing something because of what people will think is never a solution;
-I see what you mean about the genetic problems. That can happen and that's a tough question. That's the same question when 'normal' people have a disabled kid. It's all very tough, because for me even having a 'normal' kid is a tough question since you don't ask for his consent.
But I think this question of the kids is just a pretext because even when there is no kid involved, people are still against incest and they will always judge and ridicule people who are different. Now before someone says that I'm judging you because you feel differently than I do about this subject, i'd like to remind you that I have no problem with the way you think, I just have a problem with the way you want to impose your way of thinking to the others, or the way you are disgusted with people who behave differently than you do.