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thats the clincher, in order to be "more equal", the pigs have to continiue to hold the popular support. thats why democracy is the "govornment of the masses", and communism is in a way an extremely pure form of democracy, all equal say. so the pigs power is only through popularity. the others could rebel, it is the pigs duty in order to retain power to convince them to do otherwiseQuote:
Originally Posted by k_d_20
yes, already we live in a more humane society than one hundred years ago, yes, atrocities still happen, but the very fact that there is a worldwide outcry when they are descovered(even if it takes while) shows that humans care more for other societies, and other people more than ever, we still have a long way to go, but its a decent start,Quote:
Originally Posted by ben lurie
hey guys i definently agree with mayia about foreshadowing with the whole milk and apples deal. when they first start to plan all were equal...so what makes the pigs any better right? ;)
i am not sure i agree with you. when you look at the world now-a-days, what makes it different from times of roman conquer? there is still murder and destruction and not to mention war. okay yes it does look less harsh out there but i truely beleive that the government and the world is trying and sucseeding to blind fold us. there is still torture. The world is becoming over... (welmed? that still doesn't sound right), we now have technology which make things different which may make you see things differnet in my opinian.:flare:Quote:
Originally Posted by Triskele
Ben- I was interpreting the end of the story to mean that the pigs actually turned into humans. I figured that, if this were the case, time would cause them to forget that they were ever farm animals,and would therefore not treat the new, non-human pigs on their farm any differently than the other animals. However, that would deffinitely be different if the pigs did not change into human form or simply never forgot their lives as pigs.Quote:
I think that is probably true, but here is another variation on it. The pigs were able to overthrow the actual humans because of majors inspirational teachings And because of how badly Jones ran the farm. When the pigs took over and became nasty humans, things were a little different. There was no moral leader that would lead any pigs to revolt against the original nasty piggies, and if one did emerge, the nasty piggies would eliminate it. Secondly, the pigs would never allow for there to be any "non-human" pigs. They would grow up taught by pigs and have themselves brainwashed. Also, the pigs had a pretty sweet life, not working at getting all the food. The "non-human" pigs would have no reason to rebel. Only characters like Benjamin or other fairly intelligent animals that werent under the pigs controlw oudl have the chance to overthrow the pigs. They would also need the support of a Boxer, someone powerful enough to defeat the pigs physically.
I completely agree, the author wrote about ONE government stratagy that went bad (comunism), What i do not think he had in mind was that most characters can be related to people in this present day, I mean not the exact characters, but the characteristics of the characters can be related to not just the government but the people in this world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrewhugs
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Originally Posted by juliagoolia
But if they actually turned into humans, wouldnt the human pigs have human piglets?
well, take laws for instance, civil justice has evolved from crucifixion, to hanging, to lethal injection, lynching has become illegal, and the UN is in place to prevent nations from commiting unneccessary acts of war. in ancient times law was in the hands of the population, now it is a system for equal treatment. its true, there is war, destruction, and all manner of bad things, but to say things haven't improved since the days of say... ghengis khan is simply preposterous, now if someone wants to rule the world, say, the bismark, other countries band together not only to create an end to the killing, but also so that this isn't repeated.Quote:
Originally Posted by memyself&gabby
i disagree in part, i think that Orwell disagreed with the "barracks room communism" marx warned against. not that communism is on the whole a bad form of govornment.Quote:
Originally Posted by memyself&gabby
NO! The old, human pigs would purchase new, non-human pigs for their farm that would get fat and then be slaughtered for food! That is how a farm works! DUH!Quote:
Originally Posted by ben lurie
unless the new non-human pigs revolted became human and ate the human pigs...Quote:
Originally Posted by juliagoolia
Even if the old human pigs did do that, they had such a stranglehold on the farm w. the dogs and had so much authority, the chance of a another rebellion is very remote. The pigs ran a much nastier and tighter shop than jone's did.
no, b/c once they became human they changed fully into humans so they were not as smart as pigs, thus giving the pigs opportunity to rebel.Quote:
Originally Posted by ben lurie
lol i think were taking that topic a bit tooooo far into the hypothetical....
this is a bit off topic but it has to do with animal farm..the Pravda newspaper and russian communism.....that was squealer. Does anyone know much about the pravda newspaper and its origins, or any other important russian propaganda
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Originally Posted by juliagoolia
I interpreted the end of the story as a simple equation :
pigs = human politicians
Put it the other way round and mathemathically you have the same equation:
human politicians = pigs
I believe that George Orwell subtly wanted to insult human politicians. Well I maybe wrong on this one, but I think it makes sense.