D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

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09-15-2008, 03:12 PM
Janine

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Muse

To me feelings of anger and dissapointment are linked with feeling shame, for it is a sign she has not truely "moved one" or "made peace" with what happend. If she was really past that point than she would not be sulky with the baby, she would not longer be connected to such feelings of resenement if she had got over her feelings of shame about what happend.

I do not think she would still be angry about it if she was free from all feelings of shame. I think her anger is drawn from the shame.

Well, really who knows exactly what Emma does feel or is she feels true shame or not? Is that this significant to the story? I think if one had the live with the constant reminder of having had the baby out of wedlock and she will, seeing the baby everyday (as she said 'a symbol') and also having to put up with outsiders opinions of her as long as she lives then I do think she feels something negative. Whether it is now beyond true shame and more of 'disgust' or 'apathy', is to me, not that significant. I only know the woman is now in a bad position and obviously she and the whole family realise there is no going back and they must accept their lot in life, and the fact that now they will be viewed as the tainted family.
09-16-2008, 10:28 PM
Janine

Should I post some more of the story to discuss so we can move along towards ending this discussion?

Next Part of the Text:

Quote:

Miss Rowbotham, the lady of the family, sat very stiff and pained during this discourse. She was sensitive to so many things that she was bewildered. She felt her young sister's shame, then a kind of swift protecting love for the baby, a feeling that included the mother; she was at a loss before her father's religious sentiment, and she felt and resented bitterly the mark upon the family, against which the common folk could lift their fingers. Still she winced from the sound of her father's words. It was a painful ordeal.

"It is hard for you," began the clergyman in his soft, lingering, unworldly voice. "It is hard for you today, but the Lord gives comfort in His time. A man child is born unto us, therefore let us rejoice and be glad. If sin has entered in among us, let us purify out hearts before the Lord. . . ."

He went on with his discourse. The young mother lifted the whimpering infant, till its face was hid in her loose hair. She was hurt, and a little glowering anger shone in her face. But nevertheless her fingers clasped the body of the child beautifully. She was stupefied with anger against this emotion let loose on her account.

From these passages, I don't get the impression that Emma is such an unloving or uncaring mother. It says "her fingers clasped the body of the child beautifully." I think also these passages indicate the feelings of shame she and her sisters have now been forced by society to endure, from her actions. I think that probably she feels more 'guilt' over bringing this shame upon her whole family. I also found this paragraph describing how Miss Rowbothan felt about the baby and her little sister of key interest to the story: "She felt her young sister's shame, then a kind of swift protecting love for the baby, a feeling that included the mother." In this she does not seem cold but more understanding of her sister's situation and she seems to feel true love and concern for the baby.

Any other thoughts, anyone?
09-17-2008, 06:18 PM
Dark Muse

It was always my feeling that Bertha cared more about the baby than anyone else within the family.

While Emma might not be an uncaring mother, it seems to me her love for the child is stemmed more just from an instinct. There is something primitive about her love for the baby, and her feelings of love, are always tied into opposing feelings.

First it said she saw the child as a hateful symbol but than loved it when she held it.

And here it says, that she held the child beautifully inspite of the anger she felt.

Though I do think Emma may feel shame about the situation, I do not think she truly feels guilt about what she has put the family through, she seems completely unconcenred with the family, and seems to think primairly of herself as she is always either sulking or seething.

And her anger seems a bit misplaced sense she does bear some responsibility for what has happened. She did through actions of her own put herself in the situation she is in. Though we do not know for sure who left who, she was having an affair with a man of whom she did not have a real commitment with. She took the risk.

And right or wrong, in that time period, that was something women had to be mindful of, they knew the view soceity held, and what would become of them if they should get themselvesd in such a situation.
09-17-2008, 08:05 PM
Virgil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Muse

It was always my feeling that Bertha cared more about the baby than anyone else within the family.

While Emma might not be an uncaring mother, it seems to me her love for the child is stemmed more just from an instinct. There is something primitive about her love for the baby, and her feelings of love, are always tied into opposing feelings.

First it said she saw the child as a hateful symbol but than loved it when she held it.

Where does it say she loved the child? That's her sister who feels the protective love.

Quote:

Though I do think Emma may feel shame about the situation, I do not think she truly feels guilt about what she has put the family through, she seems completely unconcenred with the family, and seems to think primairly of herself as she is always either sulking or seething.

Yes I think we're in agreement after all. She feels guilt like a criminal who feels sorry he got caught.

Quote:

And her anger seems a bit misplaced sense she does bear some responsibility for what has happened. She did through actions of her own put herself in the situation she is in. Though we do not know for sure who left who, she was having an affair with a man of whom she did not have a real commitment with. She took the risk.

And right or wrong, in that time period, that was something women had to be mindful of, they knew the view soceity held, and what would become of them if they should get themselvesd in such a situation.

Well, she could have avoided this by marrying the father. We get no insight as to why she rejects him.
09-17-2008, 08:09 PM
Dark Muse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Virgil

Where does it say she loved the child? That's her sister who feels the protective love.

Well it said at one point

Quote:

She hated it when she looked at it, and saw it as a symbol, but when she felt it, her love was like a fire in her blood

Quote:

Originally Posted by Virgil

Well, she could have avoided this by marrying the father. We get no insight as to why she rejects him.

The thing about that is, we do not really have any definite proof that she was not the one who was rejected by the father.
09-17-2008, 08:12 PM
Virgil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Muse

Well it said at one point

Oh yes, quite right.

Quote:

The thing about that is, we do not really have any definite proof that she was not the one who was rejected by the father.

No? I thought it was certain but I have forgotten. I really need to read this again.
09-17-2008, 09:36 PM
Janine

I never got the impression about just who left who or why the couple did not end up together. Perhaps the family kept them apart - afterall, I don't believe they approved at all; but anyway you look at it, I doubt the story actually states the case between the mother and the father of this child. The only facts we are given here, are that they are no longer (apparently) together and do not seem to be intending to marry. I read the story several times now, and I think I would have picked up, on which of the two people was jilted, if that were the case. I don't recall any of the actual text indicating that fact. Just because the baker asks how Emma is doing does not prove to us that he was the one who was rejected, nor does that indicate that he did the rejecting.
09-17-2008, 09:39 PM
Dark Muse

Yes, the story leaves it rather vauge just what really happend between mother and father, and why things ended the way they did. It never really states it, and there are things within the story that could suggest either one of them was the rejected or rejecter depending on how you look at it.
09-17-2008, 11:40 PM
Janine

I think maybe Lawrence intended it to be that way so that the reader would concentrate more on the dynamics within that particular family of mostly women, and one brother and the father, who is prominent to the story as well. Perhaps it is unimportant that we know the details between the mother and fathrer of the illegitimate child - only necessary is to know the child has been born out of wedlock and now the family feels disgrace concerning that fact. I think all the characters have mixed emotions in regard to this baby. The baby is innocent and pure, as babies are, so that it's presence makes it hard to ignore or to hate the child or feel totally shameful or angry towards the babe all of the time. I think the fact of the Christening is in a sense a way of redeeming themselves and the child. At least, they will know the child is now accepted by God, if not by the family totally. I don't know, does that make any sense?
09-18-2008, 11:17 PM
Dark Muse

Yes what you say makes sense. I think in a way the act of the Christining was an act for the family itself not just for the baby, but it was something which they all went through, and I think it was thier hope that it would purify them as a whole.
09-18-2008, 11:22 PM
Virgil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janine

I think maybe Lawrence intended it to be that way so that the reader would concentrate more on the dynamics within that particular family of mostly women, and one brother and the father, who is prominent to the story as well. Perhaps it is unimportant that we know the details between the mother and fathrer of the illegitimate child - only necessary is to know the child has been born out of wedlock and now the family feels disgrace concerning that fact. I think all the characters have mixed emotions in regard to this baby. The baby is innocent and pure, as babies are, so that it's presence makes it hard to ignore or to hate the child or feel totally shameful or angry towards the babe all of the time. I think the fact of the Christening is in a sense a way of redeeming themselves and the child. At least, they will know the child is now accepted by God, if not by the family totally. I don't know, does that make any sense?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Muse

Yes what you say makes sense. I think in a way the act of the Christining was an act for the family itself not just for the baby, but it was something which they all went through, and I think it was thier hope that it would purify them as a whole.

If that is the case, why does Lawrence start the story with the sister at the baker? No I think Emma's turning her back on the father is critical to the story.
09-18-2008, 11:42 PM
Dark Muse

I do not think there is anything in the story to say for certain that Emma did reject the father. It is all just speculation. Though I am not really saying for sure one way or the other. But just looking at the story, if Emma did reject the father, than why is she so angery with him if it was all her choice?
09-19-2008, 01:33 AM
Janine

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Muse

I do not think there is anything in the story to say for certain that Emma did reject the father. It is all just speculation. Though I am not really saying for sure one way or the other. But just looking at the story, if Emma did reject the father, than why is she so angery with him if it was all her choice?

I have to agree with you this time, Dark Muse, and not with you Virgil. Sometimes if I stand away and read these posts, I think you are all making up your own story. I still can't find one shred of text saying who rejected who. If you can back it up with text references, Virgil, I wish you would and set this impression right. I think pretty much we are left in the dark as to exactly what the romantic situation was between the baker and the mother of the child. The story begins over 9 month since they had any contact apparently, due to the results of their actions. I would say the sister is young and the older sisters mother her; perhaps they forbade her to see him again. We really could make up any story we pleased about what went wrong between them. Hey, Virgil, why do you guys always assume you are the ones being rejected. I think woman are rejected much more so than men.;)

Dark Muse, I also am in agreement with what you said above in answer to my last post. I agree - the Christening is a sort of purging process for the entire family. Somehow they are all interconnected and they seem to all share in the guilt of the youngest sibbling, at least the woman do. I don't know about the smart aleck brother; but the father seems to feel the guilt about the entire family - at least I get the impression with his outburst of emotion that he is taking on all the guilt at the end. Perhaps he is playing the martre. I wonder if the others are not joining in the same vane. I would say that no one is totally sincere here. They all are dysfunctional on their own and within the family. They all have their issues.
09-19-2008, 12:28 PM
Virgil

I went back an reread the story and i have to admit that you ladies are correct. There is nothing definitive that says that Emma left him. It just strikes me that way. Why is that scene at the beginning between Hilda and the baker? And given that the three girls are described as strong willed, and we see how they treat their father, I just assumed Emma left him. If he left her than this is a rather ordinary story. But if she left him then the story is much more insightful. But I can't make up my mind which it is now. I will have to go with the notion that she left him since that offers us the most possibilities. But I grant you that it could be otherwise.
09-19-2008, 02:30 PM
Janine

Quote:

Originally Posted by Virgil

I went back an reread the story and i have to admit that you ladies are correct. There is nothing definitive that says that Emma left him. It just strikes me that way. Why is that scene at the beginning between Hilda and the baker? And given that the three girls are described as strong willed, and we see how they treat their father, I just assumed Emma left him. If he left her than this is a rather ordinary story. But if she left him then the story is much more insightful. But I can't make up my mind which it is now. I will have to go with the notion that she left him since that offers us the most possibilities. But I grant you that it could be otherwise.

Well, Virgil, glad that you read it again and reconsidered your position. I did not really feel like reading it a third, or will it be fourth? eek... I think that we truly cannot assume, either way, the history between the two. I can't see an indication of either. If Hilda met up with the baker in the beginning, it could just be a way of introducing him into the story and later revealing his significance; afterall, if he is the father, he is being quite left out of the Christening, isn't he? He is left out of the baby's life altogether apparently. I don't believe he asked anything about the child; he only asked how Emma was; am I correct?I think Lawrence only hints at the fact, that they got together. He never even tells us how long - was it just a one night stand or a short term thing, even longer term? I don't think L cared that we knew that part of the story. Just because the two older sisters are strong willed, what makes you convinced the younger one is, as well? Perhaps she is not strong willed and gave into the father's advances? I have two sisters and know this to be true: sisters can be quite different in personality.

I think to assume or decide exactly how they normally are is inappropriate in this instance. They all are acting under unusual conditions, having this virtual stranger (the parson) stop in their house to Christen the baby; it is an uncomfortable situation for all, including this rather nervous shy parson.

Christening is a major event for many and signifies a lot of things connected with emotions and beliefs. It usually takes place after the wedding/marriage...in this case, that is not true and not a joyful even as it should be, because of the illegitimate child; their situation is altered and tainted by the shame they all are taking on themselves. Even though the neighbors and townspeople talk, the family itself, are the main ones accepting and putting on this shame - this 'scarlet letter', so to speak. In doing so they point the finger at the perpetrator of the action and that is Emma. Perhaps Emma has good reason to feel as she does, sulky and downtrodden. Afterall ,she is the one who brought this shame into their house, and none of them can ever forget it; nor can she alter the fact. The child is there and in a way the child is a symbol of her shame to all present.