D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

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Originally Posted by Virgil

We learn later that the baker is the father of the child. What do you see in this exchange? Is he upset that he is shut out from Emma? I don't get the feeling he has abandoned Emma. But it's really not clear. I think this is the only failing of an otherwise a perfect story. I'm not sure what to think of the baker. I want to say that it's Emma who has left him but I'm not sure. What are your thoughts on Berryman?

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Silly me, I did not know the father was the acutal baker, when it said that the father was baker's man, I had thought it meant that someone who worked for the baker was the father.

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Originally Posted by Janine

I think in this first paragraph, Lawrence paints a vivid scene of the surrounding countryside. He contrasts the words well. If you notice the the color 'white' first seen in Hilda's white bag, 'white' again echoes in the description:
"the centre the great pit streaming its white smoke...."
Also, Hilda is described as "flushing over her neck", this later in the paragragh echoes in this phrase, which I find very beautiful and graphic...painterly...

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Yes I agree this does paint a very lovely scene of the country side. It was quite vivid, as well the open field seemed to contrast with the market place, the smoke offered a bit of welcome as she was nearing home and getting away from everyone.

I think it also shows how prideful and determined she is. The way in which she carries the bag. It also makes an interesting contrast. As we no from before she is dressed in black, which would seem to make the white of the bag stand out even more.

I really like the line

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When she turned into the field she seemed to droop a little.

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When I read this, it made it seem as if Hilda herself was like a flower when she entered the field. It made me think of a wilting flower.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Also, evident in the paragraph above, is the strain and stress physically, of her long walk homeward and yet though, it is a "slow-stepping torture", she has "an appearance of steadfast unconcern." I think this would be something familiar to Lawrence, with his own mother and her steadily declining health, and yet her 'steadfastness' to fight until the bitter end of life.

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I wonder if the torture of her walk home was just from her declining health and illness, or part of it was also brought on by her sense of shame, though she herself did not do anything wrong, she feels the guilt of her family, and as with the women in the beginning, as the way she is flushed with shame, and the encounter with the baker, it is as if she can feel everyone watching her, and their thoughts about her and her family situation. So she feels under scrutiny when she is in town.

It's good to see the Lawrence thread is back up and running. I'll read the story tomorrow and try to catch up with the conversation.

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Originally Posted by Quark

It's good to see the Lawrence thread is back up and running. I'll read the story tomorrow and try to catch up with the conversation.

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Seems I always just mention your name and there you are - what? do you have ESP Quark? :alien:;):lol:

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

Yes I agree this does paint a very lovely scene of the country side. It was quite vivid, as well the open field seemed to contrast with the market place, the smoke offered a bit of welcome as she was nearing home and getting away from everyone.

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I noticed that, too. I'll have to think more about the significance of the colors, though. I'm not quite sure what to make of the recurring whiteness. Also, we might want to think about the red moon as well. That image seems to be the heart of that scene.

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Originally Posted by Quark

I noticed that, too. I'll have to think more about the significance of the colors, though. I'm not quite sure what to make of the recurring whiteness. Also, we might want to think about the red moon as well. That image seems to be the heart of that scene.

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Yes, it does seem to draw attention to that moon - flamingo colored; I thought of the first part, when L mentions the flush on Hilda's face - I think that corresponds visually to the moon, both a sort of pink or blush color. I feel this whole paragragh indicates the close relationship humans have to nature and how nature can sooth even the most distressed person, even if only temporarily.

Yes I agree, I thought the image of the moon was intended to relate back to the shame of Hilda, as flamingos are not really a true red color, and it would appear to be more of a blush color upon the moon. As well I think its being the center of the scene also relates to Hilda's posistion, and the way in which feels she is the center of everyone's attention, or the center of the town gossip.

I guess no one has any thoughts on the baker. It is hard to guess what Lawrence is after there.

Let me highlight this paragraph:

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She had the whole length of the main street to traverse, a half-mile of slow-stepping torture, with shame flushing over her neck. But she carried her white bag with an appearance of steadfast unconcern. When she turned into the field she seemed to droop a little. The wide valley opened out from her, with the far woods withdrawing into twilight, and away in the centre the great pit streaming its white smoke and chuffing as the men were being turned up. A full, rose-coloured moon, like a flamingo flying low under the far, dusky east, drew out of the mist. It was beautiful, and it made her irritable sadness soften, diffuse.

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That white bag does figure later in the story. Why do you think she is still feeling the shame? It wasn't her indiscretion, but her sister's. I guess it's a slight on the whole family. Pretty language in the paragraph too.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

We learn later that the baker is the father of the child. What do you see in this exchange? Is he upset that he is shut out from Emma? I don't get the feeling he has abandoned Emma. But it's really not clear. I think this is the only failing of an otherwise a perfect story. I'm not sure what to think of the baker. I want to say that it's Emma who has left him but I'm not sure. What are your thoughts on Berryman?

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I tend to agree. Though it really is unclear, it is my general feeling by Emma's reactions, that it was her who rejected him. But than I do not know why she would be so angry with him if that were the case.

It is hard to judge just what the baker himself is thinking or feeling. But I do not get the impression that he is truly upset about being rejected, if he was. And well if it was his choice to leave Emma, I do not know why he would than ask Hilda about her.

His reaction around Hidla I think is more just awakardness becasue of the whole situtation and not quite knowing how he should respond to her.

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That white bag does figure later in the story. Why do you think she is still feeling the shame? It wasn't her indiscretion, but her sister's. I guess it's a slight on the whole family. Pretty language in the paragraph too.

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I think there are a couple of reasons why she is feeling the shame. For one I think that in that period of time a whole family would be seen as disgraced by the action of one member. It puts a shadow over everyone.

Also I think it mentions somewhere later about how she liked to try and view thier family as being a bit above other families. It says they are more "well to do" and Hilda feels responseable for keeping a high strandard up for the families behavior. So I think Emma's situation is a slight upon her vision and expectations

Quote by Virgil

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I guess no one has any thoughts on the baker. It is hard to guess what Lawrence is after there.

That white bag does figure later in the story. Why do you think she is still feeling the shame? It wasn't her indiscretion, but her sister's. I guess it's a slight on the whole family. Pretty language in the paragraph too.

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Virgil, I thought about him but I was like Dark Muse, on first reading the story I did not realise he was the father; I thought it was his worker or assistent. I don't know why I got that impression.

Yes, that white bag does end up playing prominently in the story. I think it is interesting hinting at it, in this scene coming back homeward. It stand out against the black of Hilda's dress and so it is obvious that Lawrence is giving it some emphasis. I thought the writting was very lovely here, too.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

I tend to agree. Though it really is unclear, it is my general feeling by Emma's reactions, that it was her who rejected him. But than I do not know why she would be so angry with him if that were the case.

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I still do not have a true sense of who rejected who. Perhaps it was just a casual sexual encounter, that resulted in the pregnancy, and no one rejected anyone really. It could have been a mutual parting. I don't think we are privy to that information in this story. I got the sense mostly that the Bakerman was just curious but uncomfortable asking about the sister, just as Hilda was, in encountering him alone.

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It is hard to judge just what the baker himself is thinking or feeling. But I do not get the impression that he is truly upset about being rejected, if he was. And well if it was his choice to leave Emma, I do not know why he would than ask Hilda about her.

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I would tend to agree with you here. This is the impression I got from him.

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His reaction around Hidla I think is more just awakardness becasue of the whole situtation and not quite knowing how he should respond to her.

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I think this is the case, also.

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I think there are a couple of reasons why she is feeling the shame. For one I think that in that period of time a whole family would be seen as disgraced by the action of one member. It puts a shadow over everyone.

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Yes, definitely it would do that - impact the entire family and cause them to feel ashamed.

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Also I think it mentions somewhere later about how she liked to try and view thier family as being a bit above other families. It says they are more "well to do" and Hilda feels responseable for keeping a high strandard up for the families behavior. So I think Emma's situation is a slight upon her vision and expectations

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Now this higher attitude is reminiscent of Lawrence's own mother's attitude about her station in life. She always felt she was superior to her husband and the life she had married into. I think this comes through with Hilda as well. You pointed that out well, DM. I think as with Lawrence's own mother, Hilda does feel her fate of the family situation is below her dignity and 'expectations', as you said.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Virgil, I thought about him but I was like Dark Muse, on first reading the story I did not realise he was the father; I thought it was his worker or assistent. I don't know why I got that impression.

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Hehe at least I was not the only one, now I do not feel as stupid

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

Hehe at least I was not the only one, now I do not feel as stupid

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I don't think you are the least bit stupid, DM; no, quite to the contrary. You seem to be blossoming lately and you have written some very good posts and brought out some great points already about this story and the Chekhov. I guess one dyslexic recognises another - tonight I don't feel well and I have been typing words backwards all evening - starting to drive me crazy now. I had better go and relax and give up on here for the night. See you tomorrow. I will try and post more of the story then.

Now you ladies have me wondering if I read it correctly, but yes i think the baker is the father.

It would make sense if he was. I just was confused becasue somewhere it says the father was baker's man, so I thought that met it was someone who worked for him. But the father being the baker makes the scene with Hilda make more scense as well as have more purporse in the story.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

It would make sense if he was. I just was confused becasue somewhere it says the father was baker's man, so I thought that met it was someone who worked for him.

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I was a little thrown by that too at first. The title "baker's man" wasn't exactly clear. Eventually I just assumed it was the baker because that would make sense, but I still wasn't entirely sure.

Maybe there is a 'big baker's man' and a 'little backer's man'......

like father and son or boss and workman.