For all ideas originate from our beliefs and by believing in something we form our ideas. The idea of god therefore precedes the existence of god for us. I do not mean god comes after our idea but our capacity to understand the existence of god.
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For all ideas originate from our beliefs and by believing in something we form our ideas. The idea of god therefore precedes the existence of god for us. I do not mean god comes after our idea but our capacity to understand the existence of god.
Everyone deserves respect and love. I am not saying that we should show love here, but we should show respect. Especially since that is the law laid down by the authorities of this site. It's not just believers whose beliefs should be respected here but also atheists or anyone - everyone. No one should be insulted, ridiculed, etc., for their beliefs and yet they are. By idiots.Quote:
Originally Posted by atiguhya padma
And what you say about separating the person and their beliefs... well, that doesn't hold up too much. Just consider how some people go on the attack... "Well, that is just the stupidest, most idiotic thing I've ever heard anyone say!"
I think that refutes your objection... the last one, that is.. in your post.. What if someone said that to you? It's not that you have some mis-identity or you identify yourself too much with your belief. It's just that if someone insults your beliefs in a descriptive enough way, then you just don't want to be around or near that kind of negativity...ugliness. Am I wrong, Atiguhya padma?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JommiL
My point was, some of us need something a bit more unequivocal. This is a cynical age.
A lot has been debated about evolution theory in last couple of days and I have come to know about some good theists.
I will just put my viewpoint.
The evolution theory may not be exact as such but I honestly do not reject the idea that initially there could have been unicellular life, simple organisms, amphibions, vegetation and slowly over the period of times more complex creatures and apes and then humans appeared on earth.
Dinosaurs could well have disappeared due to a big meteorite striking the earth. Species could have survived and become extinct as per survival of the fittest.
Also Bible’s story of seven days could be just symbolic wherein a day could be, lets say more than a billion years as one member has pointed.
However, I also tell myself that many points of this theory may not be conclusive evidence, and may be, things can be explained in some other better way, some future day by science - as science continues in it pursuit of truth.
Also when we seek truth, we have always to ask -Why?
For e.g. in evolution theory, we can ask - Why should there be tendency to evolve from unicellular life to higher life forms, in first place.
And if an atheist says it is in nature of things, I will again ask why? If there is an answer for it also, I can put another why before him, and then another why and so on?
Similarly, I can ask why there has to be forces like gravity, or electricity or magnetism and so many other things.
The answer can be very well in one of NikolaiI’s post where he has used a very correct word- Source.
True believers can take God as source of all above, as they take God as source of all love and mercy and all other things.
There is a good chance that life exists in many other planets on universe but why can not be the same God or Power, still responsible for everything.
The idea that, we, human beings, who have the capability to think and love and create life and who have invented aeroplanes, space shuttles, internet, cell phones, nuclear bombs etc are only a coincidental by-product of a hot, dense mass that burst with a big bang some 13 billions year ago, does not jell to me.
May be, if it could have occurred 15 or 16 billions years ago, it could have made more sense.
In nut shell, I think there can be many people like me who believe in God and also many points of the evolution theory.
But this is completely subjective. For one who lost all their possessions and their family, and their friends, they would grieve, perhaps they would recover or perhaps they would become most depressed and cynical. But for another person, let's say they suffered a little less but somehow overcame their problems to come to a peaceful, meaningful, harmonious existence. For them it is not cynical but the opposite. So it is subjective - maybe you see more people today are cynical... but maybe I see more people are becoming enlightened. In fact I think there are so, so many more people these days who are so close to enlightenment. In general people are turning away from fundamentalism and superstition and turning towards logic and spirituality. Many people are finidng peace, and truth within, and finding deep love, and they are sharing it, forming connections... so that is why I say that we are close to being much more enlightened as a race.Quote:
Originally Posted by prendrelemick
I believe the exact same thing. And I believe a better theory will come from scientific researchers, not religiously motivated ideologues.Quote:
Originally Posted by laidbackperson
But as far as natural phenomena go, why do we never get a sufficient answer? The absurdity of the universe---the human condition---is that the why questions are meaningless.Quote:
Also when we seek truth, we have always to ask -Why?
Homo Sap has a pretty inflated sense of his own self-worth. He loves to think of himself as God's most beloved creation, or as able to tap into the wellspring of pure Being, or at the very least as the crowning achievement of evolution. None of these things are any more than wishful thinking, part of the boundless narcissism of our species.Quote:
The idea that, we, human beings, who have the capability to think and love and create life and who have invented aeroplanes, space shuttles, internet, cell phones, nuclear bombs etc are only a coincidental by-product of a hot, dense mass that burst with a big bang some 13 billions year ago, does not jell to me.
Regards,
Istvan
I have no qualms with your clinical attempt at reducing the concept of a supreme being to a mere psychological need. Do keep in mind that your all too humane moral projections upon any such entity are only a romantic and narcissistic need to identify and connect yourself with something beyond explanation or knowledge.Quote:
Originally Posted by JommiL
I also needn't remind you that the concept of a supreme being and religion are two different things. Morality is mostly a matter of convenience which changes its state with time and place; the reason why civilization needed to invent legality of human actions.
I don't and perhaps you wouldn't either, had you kept the context of the post in mind which I was replying to. Why is that the existence of billions of dead pieces of rock and gas do not ascertain to absence of a creator, but a small obscure green planet becomes the testament to a divine design and authority? What's your logical explanation of this wishful thinking?Quote:
Originally Posted by tailor STATELY
If any such being is indeed beyond human perception and logical explanations, then it doesn't matter if you're a believer or not. To quote Ludwig Wittgenstein: "a nothing will serve just as well as a something about which nothing can be said."
"Satan believes in God, but he will not worship him."
- Pentti Saarikoski, Finnish poet.
"I also needn't remind you that the concept of a supreme being and religion are two different things. Morality is mostly a matter of convenience which changes its state with time and place; the reason why civilization needed to invent legality of human actions."
So very very wrong and no they are NOT. I can assure you, but i believe that you are totally hopeless in this matter.
Anyway, this means that there´s no good or bad. Everyone knows, that they exists. How the heck every time we just do something - like steal, lie etc. - everyone hates it? Believe me, i know satanism very well indeed. It is very easy way to think and see from upper level. It is just VERY big lie in every way.
There´s no such thing that "ubermench". We are just men. What is humanity? We will wound easily, we must stay "in the frontline" if we want to succeed and if we want to be better in every day. But still were are mortals. In this point; Dear Satan, you can live your life as you want to. Everyone has opportunity to choose. But this i´ll tell you; IF you love life, you don´t have any future. You just have some "pleasures" and foolish & full-of-lies feeling about being strong and independent. If you like, live it. But i dont want that you would do that. I could say, that "yeah, live your life, but DONT come back tome and say, that you were wrong." No. Why i should think like that? If i would, i would say, that YOU have no opportunity to build yourself. And because everyone has that opportunity, so do you. THIS is the matter of faith and hope. This means, that you have possibility to choose. But it is up to you, how you use this choice. No-one can´t do it for you, just yourself. So because you say, that you are responsible of ALL of your actions, feel free to do it and use your total freedom. But IF you will choose wrong way - man - it is just your fault.
Why? Because - in the last act - total freedom is the final corner on hell. We NEED moral laws because under them we are safe. If we just deny God and morality, we can keep anything as value. No good, no bad, no judgment, no law: No reason to be true, valuable human and humble, only reason and opportunity to live like a pig in the field, after all. Is that humanity? Is that humanity, that people kill each other? So; feel free to do and live anyway you like. Inner moral can be different than that we show to other people. I wonder also, why Jesus blamed those guys that they were just like gold-plated? White, nice looking tombs, and just bones inside. And there´s no any reason to say, what this kind of actions will lead us. Or do I?
God is the absolute. A lot of times, or perhaps every time, atheists will reject this view. They say there is no absolute. Yet God is that, or in other words, God is Reality. Who would think there is nothing at all more real than this known existence?
For example death. Atheists today say that death is the end of our existence. But they never questioned if existence is at is appears. What some found was that death and life are not opposites, but they form a whole, they are one. They're yin and yang.
It makes no sense to think there is nothing beyond what we currently know. If anyone takes the view that there's nothing beyond what he or she knows, then they have immediately sealed their continued separation from truth. And yet this is what people are fighting about all the time. And they resort to tactics such as lumping all who say there is a soul as the same as those fundamentalists who demand you read the Bible... who can be scary at times.
So what is God? God in Hinduism is written about in scriptures as the Witness. God's the Witness, of what? Of the nearly infinite information which is this universe, this matrix. But God is beyond the matrix. And how can we understand what the matrix of information, which we call this universe, is? It's like a dream. It has no real existence, exactly like a dream.
To be free, to reach God, to know God, that is the highest experience. Yet in this existence there is seeming imperfection, and for that reason people deny the existence of God. The matrix of information which is the entire universe we know, that is merely a tiny point in God. God is Reality, and the universe is a tiny point within Reality. But within this tiny point, which to us is the whole universe, is the only place where it seems that God is not. Rather, it seems that events and information are unconnected.
And because it seems so bewiledering, for whatever reason that it seems that information is unconnected - that leads people to say that there is no way to know everything. In the worst case of this, people become ugly to each other. That's the cause of almost all suffering.
Now there have been many divine saints such as Christ, Muhammad, peace be upon them, and others who are less well-known. These divine saints saw God, and they knew the highest divine consciousness. Only on the lower levels is there difficulty. In the lower levels it seems as though there is a serious battle between good and evil. But the higher levels one knows the reality beyond this universe, as well as knowing that within this universe there is nothing to fear. They saw that anyone can come to God, can be free of all the bonds. And since this world will always have people who wish to play these games of life and all that is in life; they at least gave the answer to the interpersonal relationships, the answer being love.
They gave poems and other writings from their spiritual awareness which help us to become aware of the eternal, infinite existence beyond this matrix of information which is God. Love is the center of all of these writings and poems and all of their talks. God is at the center.
People deserve respect not ideas or beliefs. Can you imagine a philosophy professor complaining to the principal that people don't respect his philosophical views? He or she would be laughed at. if ideas, beliefs or viewpoints do not hold water, we should stop trying to artificially keep themQuote:
Originally Posted by NikolaiI
afloat. The fact that nowadays Christians are forever harping on about respect for their religious views shows just how weak their arguments are: they cannot defend their ideas well enough, so they're left with the last resort, respect, which leaves them free to propound nonsense and jargon without due review. It's the old story of the Emperor's new clothes.
NikolaiI,
I have seen plenty of people that you describe in your penultimate sentence. They are entrenched in their views to such a way that any argument, any evidence that doesn't agree with them is seen as negative and therefore something to avoid. This then means that everything confirms and strengthens their beliefs. but that's fine. what isn't fine is expecting everyone to hold their tongue because such people are around. even the church needs dissenters and radicals. Faith today would be nowhere without such people.
You completely did not get what I was saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by atiguhya padma
Do you understand that comments about someone belief, if phrased a certain way, can be very little different from insulting the actual person. For example what I used as an e.g., "That's absolutely the stupidest, most idiotic thing I've ever heard anyone say."
The other thing is - I do have a very valid complaint. It's not just people who disagree with me I have a problem with. It's people who are radical and fundamentalist themselves, who will go on to say all kinds of nasty stuff in continuation.
It's also the complete closed-mindedness and lack of thought which sometimes comes.
Don't defend anonymous people on the internet so easily because sometimes the worst comes out in them in an anonymous setting like this. If someone goes on the attack quite often, calling those with spiritual ideas delusional frequently, saying they have mental problems... this is not really helpful to anyone, themselves or others.
Atiguhya, I did not give a list of those who I respect and admire but they are absolutely nothing like what you just described.Quote:
Originally Posted by atiguhya padma
"Faith is believing what you know ain't so" - Mark Twain
Faith and believing are pretty same thing, right? Funny thing; everyone who flies in airplane is believer. He believes, that plane stays in the air. If he/she do not believe, he/she will not go in the plane.
No, they aren't. Believing is a thing and - according to Twain - faith is believing under a specific circumstance. So, to break that down semantically, if I were to say that Murder is killing when the law says you mustn't, that would not lead to the conclusion that 'murder and killing are pretty same thing'.Quote:
Originally Posted by JommiL
Semantic inconsistency apart, what's the point you're trying to make? Are you saying that anyone who believes anything believes everything?
No. I try to say, that believing and faith - also, is needed.
No, they're not. If I believe something for a comprehensible reason, there's no faith involved. I believe we will see the sun rise every morning because I know the reason we see the sun rise. Religious believers consider faith a virtue because it involves professing belief in things that can't be rationally affirmed.Quote:
Originally Posted by JommiL
The difference is that the belief is based on a rational understanding of what makes planes fly and the reasonable expectation that the machine has been responsibly built and maintained.Quote:
Funny thing; everyone who flies in airplane is believer. He believes, that plane stays in the air. If he/she do not believe, he/she will not go in the plane.
That's the exact opposite of faith.
Regards,
Istvan
Well, i must disagree. Even faith can be rationally affirmed.
And basically people are showed they true side: Jesus made miracles and there was still those, who did not BELIEVE in him.
No it can't. That's what makes it faith. Can a believer rationally affirm John 3:16, or does he simply profess to believe it's true because he thinks it's immoral to doubt it?Quote:
Originally Posted by JommiL
The Doubting Thomas story shows why religious believers consider faith a virtue. Anyone can affirm something if it's supported by evidence, so there's no moral dimension to professing such a belief. Jesus said "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."Quote:
And basically people are showed they true side: Jesus made miracles and there was still those, who did not BELIEVE in him.
And that's where religious belief diverges from any regular human search for knowledge: facts and evidence are considered irrelevant. With religion, it's a moral imperative to believe, not an intellectual conclusion.
Regards,
Istvan
Yes it can be affirmed;
Hebr. 11;1
And yes, it is intellectual conclusion, and it is very easy to me.
You can't prove something using itself. That's one of the worst logical fallacies that can be made.
Belief in God is something we do it as an influence and of course we were told to believe in God. We were told the Biblical story of creation before we learned Darwin's theory of evolution. And thus our elders or seniors have instilled in our defenseless mindsets to beleive in God and we do now out of that impression and that is how faith goes on and on and on timelessly
I believe in God because He has touched my heart so deeply with his Holy Spirit that anything else than to love, obey and worship him was impossible.
Faith is not something man can achieve on his own, it is an act of God.
"We love Him because He first loved us." - 1 John 4:19
This is incorrect. I was an atheist for many years and I learned about evolution long before creation. I was not brought up as a Christian, but rather in an anti-Christian home. People believe in God because they see the the Truth in His eternal Word and they see the undeniable fact that He exists and ultimately we feel His presence in our hearts. I was never "brain washed" to be Christian, it is something I became later in life. This is also the case for many other people. Take Buddhists in China as an example. These may not have heard of Christianity and creation all their lives and then, when they are eventually introduced to Christianity, they start believing in God. These facts do not agree with your statements.Quote:
Originally Posted by blazeofglory
Can I ask why God and Christ are always used synonymously? Where there is God there is Christianity. I respect your change in belief, Dekarto, but it confuses me. You started off with no religious beliefs and then gravitated towards Christianity. Why? Why not Buddhism? Judaism? Islam? Wicca? Did you just happen to live where there is a large community of Christians?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekarto
That's not only China, but it's most of the world. The spread of Christianity was forced on many. If your example is focused on today I can only say that religion is a tool for assimilation. How much easier is it to fit in and get involved when you're in church every Sunday?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekarto
Regardless, I believe in a God. Maybe it's a security blanket I use as an answer as to "Why isn't there just nothing?"
You seem to have been conditioned into believing in Christian faiths and you have wrongly thought that Chinese people have come to Christianity just because they have thought it is better than Buddhism. Most of what Christian missionaries do is they try to convert people into Christianity and by injecting more and more money they are influencing them. That said I am not critical of your faith and I respect others' faith, but now this is simply a comment on your critical opinion. What is more to articulate the Christian idea of creation is a narrow point of view and Christianity is one of the hundred faiths which suffer all kinds of dogmas and discretions. I personally do not subscribe to the personal God you do have and though I am born of an orthodox Hindu family yet I believe not in a personal, national, mythological, religious or invented God the way you do. Nobody can evidently say God exists nor they can disregard the idea of God. We are in a dilemma of belief and disbelief. But I am always open to ideas and never approve of theism and atheism for both lead to narrowness. In someway I repudiate that Christianity is better than Buddhism for simple and gullible Chinese Buddhists to convert. Now Buddhism is deemed a scientific religion by many and it does not suffer the fallacies and myths of Christianity. With all that said I apologize that I am not hitting upon your personal faiths but this is a general comment only, not directed against the domain of your faith at allQuote:
Originally Posted by Dekarto
Yeah I'm in a huge dilemma too, about whether I should believe that there is Narnia in my closet. I mean, I can't disprove it, and either it is there or it is not, so the odds seem 50-50.. Maybe if I open my closet, someday, there will be Narnia.Quote:
Originally Posted by blazeofglory
Or recently a friend told me about the flying spaghetti monster. Should I believe in it? I mean it's a tough choice, it might exist and there is no evidence against it.. I think I better believe in it, if it does exist and finds out I didn't care about it, it might get angry and throw spaghetti sauce at me, and I really don't want spaghetti sauce all over my clothes..
I can't understand those irrational 'A-Narnianists', these people who don't believe in Narnia. I mean, how arrogant are they to assume that there is existance without it. They can't prove it. Actually, not believing in Narnia is a religion too, they believe in solid closet walls instead of Narnia.
There is worldplay in your statement and I do not understand what you really want to put forthQuote:
Originally Posted by Dodo25
I used sarcasm and reductiones ad absurdum to make an important point: It is irrational to believe (in) something if there is no evidence for it. The burden of 'proof' (or evidence) thus rests on the believer. Not 'believing' would then be the 'default option', and not a narrow-minded choice, and definitely not a fundamentalistic one, if we allow the possibility of changing our minds after new evidence comes up.Quote:
Originally Posted by blazeofglory
Edit:
And 'solid closet walls' by the way stands for 'chance'. Some believers make statements like 'atheists have faith in chance'. The misunderstanding here is that it actually requires no faith to not believe, because God (or Narnia) is much more complex and thus more improbable to just happen to exist (or pop into existance) than anything else, including the universe itself. It means that this
is not a good answer, because just 'postulating' something even more complex and unexplainable than the thing (universe) we're trying to explain only complicates the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Genocide
God and Christ are used synonymously because Christ is part of the triune God; The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. God consists of these three personalities. You can search the internet for the Trinity to learn more about this unique characteristic of God. The answer to your second question on why I became a Christian instead of a follower of any other religon, is simple. As a Christian I believe in the salvation system of Calvinism, a doctrine that teaches that people are saved through the grace of God by an unconditional election. While this doctrine of salvation may not explain to you the reason for my personal conversion, it can throw some light on the matter. My personal testimony would be that one day some time ago, I for some reason came across some articles arguing for the existence of God. I was not very convinced at first, but gradually I started to realise that I had been a fool for many years; a fool to deny the existence of God. I prayed to God and said that if he really was out there, convince me that He is, and thereafter lead me to the right conclusions about Him. Unaware of the great act I had done by placing my faith in God, the perseverance of the Saints was starting working within me, and after that I have found it impossible to deny God; both because of the logical reasons why He exists and the personal experiences with Him and the great changes that have taken place in my life (I was the typical a-hole atheist before I was saved, but no longer). I mention that I prayed to God and asked Him to lead to me to right conclusions about Him, and He lead me to the Christian faith. The overwhelming evidence for the truth of this religion I just could not ignore and an inner convincing feeling made me place my trust in this religion as the right one. (Although there are many Christian churches and doctrines that are wrong.) Being a Christian feels so right, and then it probably is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Genocide
And no, I'm not in a Christian community, I don't go to church, and I'm not baptised either. My faith is a personal one.
Indeed it has been forced on many to attend church and be baptised (by water), but one can never force anyone to truly believe in something. They can lie about it and call themselves Christians, but this does not mean that they are baptised by the spirit and truly knows God and will go to Heaven. Not all 'Christians' will go to heaven.Quote:
Originally Posted by Genocide
Again, some Chinese people may call themselves Christian and not be so, but why would they? The only thing they have coming by doing so is persecution by the Chinese government. The only thing that matters is the personal faith and relationship with God, accepting His Son Jesus Christ as Savior. I strongly doubt that most Christian missionaries convert people by offering them riches. A true believer in Christ will not be influenced by these earthly items; a missionary that truly believes in Christ will not offer money to the chinese for convertion, and a true chinese believer will not accept the money and convert because of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by blazeofglory
I could go on and on answering your questions and statements, but rather I will suggest the amazing Christian website www.gotquestions.org. This site can and will answer all your questions on Christianity. But in the end it is up to you if you accept the religion or not.
In what way do you think posting a link that states things like 'homesexuality comes from sin, and people are not born homosexual' or 'humans lived with dinosaurs' supports your case??Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekarto
Studies on twins raised separately in different environments have shown beyond reasonable doubt that being homosexual is to a huge extent determined by genes -> birth. So are some babies born as sinners and some aren't?
And the dinosaur thing is simply ridiculous, dating methods based on several different isotopes with different half-life times have independently reached the very same conclusion: Dinosaurs died out about 65 million years ago (with the exception of birds that is).
Not only are the 'answers' on this site preposterously wrong, they're also dangerous and highly offending. Thinking that being gay is a matter of choice or of weak character is discriminating. Indoctrinating others (children) with such believes, i.e. the dinosaur-human myth, messes up their minds and damages education.
This kind of stuff is the reason why faith is dangerous. If people don't learn how to think and find it acceptable to hold beliefs without evidence, we'll continue to have problems with discrimination and simply terrible general education.
Firstly, in my post I do not have any specific cases that needs to be supported. Secondly, I am not responsible for what the articles on that site says about various things, I merely suggested it as a notable site visiting if you have questions regarding the Christian faith. About homosexuality: No one are born homosexual. There are indeed some people that have tendencies to be homosexual, but this does not force them to be homosexual. These tendencies may have some genetic origin, but in the end it is a sin like every other sin that needs to be suppressed. I think it is more offensive to say that homosexuals are without choice than to say that they actually do have a choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodo25
Everyone are born sinners. It is not as you suggest that some are born sinners and some are not. Everyone inherit the original sin that dates back to Adam and Eve, from their parents. But sin is in many forms. Homosexuality is just one kind of sin, pedophilia, for example, is another. Disbelief in God is also a sin. Lust of the flesh is a sin. Murder is a sin. But the thing is that all sin is equal in value. No sin is worse than any other.
There is a common opinion among most people today that every theory science produces is an absolute fact. And that everything they read on wikipedia or watch on Discovery Channel is true. Well, this is wrong. There is debate among scientists on whether we can trust the dating methods used to determine the age of ancient fossils and other items. There are also many non-scientific reasons for why dating methods may be flawed. Let me use a simple example: When God created Adam and Eve, they were already adults, and a doctor would tell just the same. Why not think that when God created the Earth, it will, similar to the case of Adam and Eve, appear much older than its actual age?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodo25
I disagree with you here on several points. First of all, the answers on the site are not at all wrong, and much less offending. The site never claims homosexuals to be weak characters. And about education, I think it is rather the opposite; the teachings of today's society are wrong and perverted, not the teachings of the Bible. In fact, study of Scripture will reveal that it is not wrong in any areas and is actually compatible with science in many areas (assuming the scientific theories which are compared to religious views are correct in their statements, of course). Christians do not hold beliefs without evidence, science, on the other hand, often does. What proof do you have for the Big Bang theory? None. What proof do you have for dinosaurs living hundreds of millions of years ago? None. Christianity on the other hand answers both these questions. The Earth was created by a creator (which is logical when one thinks about it) and that life did not come to life out of nothing. And dinosaurs are documented in the Bible which is actually the most trustworthy ancient document. I think you should re-think your hasty statements and study the Christian points of view before you are too judgemental.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodo25
I don't believe I said it was a good answer.... but seeing as I don't see a better one.... :]Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodo25
Hm, call me naive to think that people don't actually still think like this. I believe people are born homosexual. I mean, as far as guys go I think there is a clear indicator of what they prefer sexually. Why would a person choose to have a hard life? Have people like you telling them they are sinners for loving whomever they happen to fall in love with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekarto
Is discrimination a sin?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekarto
Huh, you're right. Because here are a few of my favorite teachings of the Bible. I live by them. Really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekarto
“Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him, but if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her? For her hair is given to her for a covering.”---- 1 Corinthians 11:14-15 NAS
So women can't have short hair and men shouldn't have long hair... well there was a man named Samson...
"The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment:for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God."
---- Deuteronomy.22:5.
OH! So not only must women have long hair but they can't wear...pants? Okay THIS one makes sense too!
“And the LORD said to Moses, "Say to the people of Israel: 'Suppose a man's wife goes astray and is unfaithful to her husband. Suppose she sleeps with another man, but there is no witness since she was not caught in the act. If her husband becomes jealous and suspicious of his wife, even if she has not defiled herself, the husband must bring his wife to the priest with an offering of two quarts of barley flour to be presented on her behalf. Do not mix it with olive oil or frankincense, for it is a jealousy offering – an offering of inquiry to find out if she is guilty. "'The priest must then present her before the LORD. He must take some holy water in a clay jar and mix it with dust from the Tabernacle floor. When he has presented her before the LORD, he must unbind her hair and place the offering of inquiry – the jealousy offering – in her hands to determine whether or not her husband's suspicions are justified. The priest will stand before her, holding the jar of bitter water that brings a curse to those who are guilty. The priest will put the woman under oath and say to her, "If no other man has slept with you, and you have not defiled yourself by being unfaithful, may you be immune from the effects of this bitter water that causes the curse. But if you have gone astray while under your husband's authority and defiled yourself by sleeping with another man"- at this point the priest must put the woman under this oath – "then may the people see that the LORD's curse is upon you when he makes you infertile. Now may this water that brings the curse enter your body and make you infertile. "And the woman will be required to say, "Yes, let it be so." Then the priest will write these curses on a piece of leather and wash them off into the bitter water. He will then make the woman drink the bitter water, so it may bring on the curse and cause bitter suffering in cases of guilt. "'Then the priest will take the jealousy offering from the woman's hand, lift it up before the LORD, and carry it to the altar. He will take a handful as a token portion and burn it on the altar. Then he will require the woman to drink the water. If she has defiled herself by being unfaithful to her husband, the water that brings the curse will cause bitter suffering. She will become infertile, and her name will become a curse word among her people. But if she has not defiled herself and is pure, she will be unharmed and will still be able to have children. "'This is the ritual law for dealing with jealousy. If a woman defiles herself by being unfaithful to her husband, or if a man is overcome with jealousy and suspicion that his wife has been unfaithful, the husband must present his wife before the LORD, and the priest will apply this entire ritual law to her. The husband will be innocent of any guilt in this matter, but his wife will be held accountable for her sin.” ---- Numbers 5:11-31 NLT
This is a favorite bed time story of mine.
"But of these things be not ashamed, lest you sin through human respect;…Of constant training of children, or of beating the sides of a disloyal servant; or of a seal to keep an erring wife at home.” ---- Sirach 42:1,5-6 NAB
Do you beat your children?
“Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.” ----1 Corinthians 14:34-35
“Women should listen and learn quietly and submissively. I do not let women teach men or have authority over them. Let them listen quietly. For God made Adam first, and afterward he made Eve. And it was the woman, not Adam, who was deceived by Satan, and sin was the result. But women will be saved through childbearing and by continuing to live in faith, love, holiness, and modesty.” ---- 1 Timothy 2:11-15 NLT
“A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived, it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.” ---- 1 Timothy 2:11-14
"If a man lies with a woman during her sickness and uncovers her nakedness, he has discovered her flow, and she has uncovered the flow of her blood. Both of them shall be cut off from her people."---- Leviticus 20:18
‘You wives will submit to your husbands as you do to the Lord. For a husband is the head of his wife as Christ is the head of his body, the church; he gave his life to be her Savior. As the church submits to Christ, so you wives must submit to your husbands in everything.” ---- Ephesians 5:22-24 NLT
“But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst.” ----- Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB
“And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, ... If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days. ... And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying three and thirty days. ... But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days.” ---- Leviticus 12:1-5
“Give no woman power over you to trample upon your dignity.”---- Sirach 9:2 NAB
“Wives, be subordinate to your husbands, as is proper in the Lord.”---- Colossians 3:18 NAB
“Likewise, you wives should be subordinate to your husbands so that, even if some disobey the word, they may be won over without a word by their wives' conduct when they observe your reverent and chaste behavior.” ---- 1 Peter 3:1-2 NAB
Well.... this must be why Hillary lost.
There are many, many more quotes that I don't actually believe you follow... but if you think that the Bible has it right... then that's you, I guess.
You are right in an ideal situation when a believer is assured of the minimum accommodations he needs to maintain and sustain life in point of fact. But more often than not people are tempted and accept riches. In Nepal most Christian missionaries tempt poor communities into their faiths. I am not against Christianity or Jesus, but Christianity is not the only religion that is true and holy. Other religions are equally important too no matter how poor the people in those religions are. It is also true that Christian missionaries are richer and they have so much money to throw and that is helping them to spread their religions. On the strength of money this religion is spreading fast. With that said I do not want to criticize your faith. I am only stating it in relation to other faiths onlyQuote:
Originally Posted by Dekarto
The OP of the thread:Quote:
Originally Posted by laidbackperson
Just to reiterate:
This thread is not an opportunity for any kind of religious propaganda
and
it is definitely not an opportunity to push agendas on more controversial issues under the cloak of religious discussion.
Unless you would like to discuss the topic at hand, please refrain from posting in this thread.
Off-topic posts will be removed without further notice and lead to thread closure.
There is a common opion among some people today that every dogma a specific religion (mostly the one of their parents) produces is an absolute fact. And that everything they read in their holy book is true. Well, this is wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekarto
It is highly obvious, yet I'll still point it out: If you argue that religious issues are true because the Bible says so, you're using circular 'logic'.
Additionally, your criticism on science is completely wrong. Science is evidence based, it changes when the evidence changes, that's a strenght and not a weakness. When has religious dogma ever changed? You yourself exemplify this stubbornness by rejecting evidence-based (statistical) proof that people are born gay.
And about scientific theories, they're the product of a systematic process called the scientific method. Based on observations, (several) intelligent guess(es) (hypotheses) are formed. Then, the hypotheses are used to predict the outcome of experiments. Experiments are performed, and if they contradict the hypothesis, it is discarded. Only if a hypothesis has succesfully predicted the outcomes of many experiments, never has been falsified, and papers on it have stood up to critical peer review, a body of explanations eventually becomes a scientific theory.
Science doesn't hold beliefs without evidence, your statement just shows how your faith corrupts your thinking. You can't even represent the position of your 'opponents' objectively. The emphasis here rests on 'beliefs'. Scientists might have personal beliefs, and hypotheses, that only rest on intuiton (or even religiously motivated ideas, since there are also religious scientists). Yet the product of science, tested theories and results, are evidence-based, this is how it works, down to the very core of science.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekarto
And who are you to tell me that there is no proof for the big bang theory or for dinosaurs having lived (hundreds of) millions of years ago? First of all, I already told you that dating methods using different isotopes each independently reach the same conclusions. There is no controversy among scientists about this, it's just undamentalist Christian propaganda.
And have you ever looked into the science behind the big bang? Are you familiar with microwave background radiation and the Doppler shift? Have you studied the criteria for indicator stars and how light waves travel? I'm not going to spell it out for you because as Scher has pointed out, it would be off topic. Yet I would like you to reflect and think about your own reasoning and ignorance about particular subjects.
I've stated before that the idea of a creator is not logical at all, because the creator is more complicated than what you're trying to explain. Where did that come from, super creator?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekarto
And even if the Bible is the most trustworthy ancient document, and even if it were divenly inspired, many Biblical scholars argue against the interpretation of 'behemoth' and other 'creatures' being clear references to dinosaurs. Again, believers are bending the facts the way it suits them. If fossils weren't made of solid rock that you can actually touch, I'm pretty sure believers would deny that there even were dinosaurs.
And finally, I have read the Bible and studied the Christian point of view. I'm familiar with the arguments and I haven't heard anything new for a long time of discussing these matters with believers.
This is quite a long post and I think I've made my point. I might comment again if you respond to this, yet I definitely won't go into details again because I really think I've said enough.
i believe in god because it inspires me..
Judgment day tends to be the most common latent answer.
My mouth literaly hung open as I read this. Just unbelievable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dekarto
My belief in God started at a early age as my family have always been involved in the church. I was brought up in the Methodist faith and have continued to believe. Though these days I do not attend church, I still believe and always have a Bible in the house. I try to bring my daughter up with these beliefs. I admit as time has went on my relationship with God is not as strong as it once was, I guess due to life's problems. Though I do think there is evidence of God just by looking at nature.:angel:
Just wanted to state something general, but which I think should be stated.
Many on this thread have said things along the line of, probability wise there is barley a 0.01% chance og God existing, hence I define my self an atheist. And I agree, if your conception of god is a man in the clouds with a big beard, but lets face it, few people have that conception of god; and assuming that that is what people mean when they say god is rather ignorant and arrogant. On this forums almost all the members seem rather intelgint and cultured, so I doubt anyone here see's god as the big man in the clouds with the white beard.
The first problem in giving a probability which states the chance of god's existence is, what is god? unless you can answer that, you cant find a probability. Now if I said tell me what is the probability of gagblagoo, you would say what is gablagooo? It could be something as simple as a leaf or it could be something which does not exist. Only I know what Gagblagoo is. The same is the problem with god, except no one knows what god is, or can be or anything at all, so sating a probability for its existence is rather ridiculous and narrow-minded.
For example if we take a deist approach to god, as was common among the cultured men of the 18th and 19th century, how can you find a probability for it's existence....