Thanks Yanni, and to everyone else !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dkt75...eature=related
Printable View
Thanks Yanni, and to everyone else !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dkt75...eature=related
Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicology
Quote:
Originally Posted by yanni
Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicology
Gentlemen, say it isn't so!Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicology
Is this really the end?
All joking aside, whether this is the end or not, my hat is off to both of you for your stubborn endurance and for sharing many new names, dates, events and possibilities to consider. Though I haven't responded much to your posts, I have attempted to read most of your posts, after all if it wasn't for you where would I get my material?
I'm sure our trails will cross elsewhere among the forums.
Until then, keep your bows rosined and your powder dry!
Gilliatt
Hi Gilliatt,
Best wishes and thanks !
Antonin Dvorak
Cello Concerto
(End of Second Movement)
Soloist - Rostropovich
(Composed New York 1894)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-GlL...eature=related
Antonin Dvorak
Cello Concerto
Carlo Maria Giulini
London Philharmonic Orchestra
Rostropovitch
1st Movement (Excerpt)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxYbF...eature=related
Updated new website on Musical Revisionism. A modern re-examination of the icons of western musical history. In the coming weeks this site will contain various articles, publications and radio interviews etc. on aspects of this important educational and cultural subject.
http://www.musicalrevisionism.info/
Gentlemen, I must second Gilliatt's emotion. You both have shed major light on an era of history that has been vastly misrepresented – even bastardized - by official “education.”
I have been following this discussion since the get-go and must say that my curiosity has been piqued…
I have long listened to - and participated in (I’m a classically-trained horn player) the repertory of the classical era and after delving into this avenue I must declare that I am flabbergasted by the scores (no pun intended) of composers who – to my sensibilities – have received, at best, short shrift from the official establishment. Worse, many have had their music - and life stories – totally ignored and neglected.
After referring to some of the composers’ names mentioned in your missives I am amazed at the quality (and quantity) of their output. Example: Pavel Wranitsky (see the Wranitsky Project Website); the slow movement from his Symphony, opus 31 is sublime, haunting. It is as profound as any I have heard from the “mainstream” characters (Mozart, Haydn, etc. etc.). Until this discussion I thought there was an appalling paucity of composers from that era.
In short, I was wrong.
I am now listening to the MIDI versions of his opus 33 Symphonies. Even the MIDI versions are remarkable. I can only imagine what they would sound like if performed by a full orchestra on period instruments. I can only ask: Why in the world have these jewels of sonic architecture been ignored – cast aside – by the musical “powers-that-be?”
I am coming to the conclusion that Robert is on to a major revelation; that this “Mozart” has received the lion’s share of (patently undeserved) attention and adulation while a virtual throng of real composers has been painted with the black brush of oblivion.
Why?
Bamert’s London Players “Contemporaries of Mozart” series is an example of the musical hierarchy as it presently exists.
The movie “Amadeus”, in light of these considerations, could be considered apocryphal…
An example: The composer Eberl was plagiarized by “Mozart” for a long time. Apparently Eberl did not sound the alarm, contrary to what one would surmise.
I am curious about Yanni’s research into Cocchi. Cocchi was prolific, yes. But could he truly have had that many aliases? Wouldn’t someone need a Guinness Book of World Record case of chronic insomnia to assume that many identities and be so prolific? I ask this in all sincerity…
Well done. BTW, Robert, I look forward to your Website and book.
:)
Friendly suggestion:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8551000.stm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERS
I'm not sure I follow you, Yanni.
I followed your "friendly suggestion" and came to a link about the U.S. employment figures. And, frankly, I'm not sure I buy the prognostications. The U.S. economy is not likely to improve... As for the jobs market, I see nothing but pink slips in my neck of the woods...
I'm not sure what you are trying to say... :sosp:
Please make the connection and enlighten me.
But since it seems that we have a penchant for current events, I'll return the favor:
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...show_article=1
Now Robert has a sock puppet screenname. Desperate?
Regards,
Istvan
No Babbalanja,
You are again mistaken. I've actually received dozens of similar comments. A professor of harpsichord in Venice recently posted online to say what is being criticised about Mozart is correct. He even used the term 'meticulously well researched'. I don't need (unlike Yanni's version of Cocchi) to invent sock puppets.
I hardly have enough time to make the following website, let alone invent other posters. They can speak for themselves. In fact, I can't finish the 'Musical Revisionism' website for another week or so.
Why not reply to the poster above if you are so sure ? Not me, is it ? I hardly care. Believe as you please. And best wishes.
http://www.musicalrevisionism.info/
Quote:
Originally Posted by Babbalanja
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicology
However, all your new admirer mentioned was that there are many composers of Mozart's time who have received short shrift. This is hardly support for your arcane conspiracy theory which states that powerful secret cabals contracted these composers to ghost write all of Mozart's works.
So I'll ask ERS to clarify his opinion of Robert's work here. Which of these statements would you affirm:
1) The lesser composers of Mozart's time don't deserve to be ignored, and should be acknowledged for their efforts the way Mozart is for his?
2) Mozart was a completely fraudulent creation of diabolical fraternities desperate to create a Viennese Musical Messiah, and that he didn't compose any of his works?
3) There has been a centuries-old cover-up in mainstream musicology and Mozart scholarship to conceal this terrible truth and marginalize those who seek to reveal it?
Look forward to a conversation.
Regards,
Istvan
Thank you for giving me the benefit of the doubt, for now. You might give your own education the benefit of the doubt also. I don't know what makes you believe in the story of Mozart. Well, yes I do. It's simply that you've never considered that it has more holes in it than a leaky boat. Why not start there ? What makes you believe it ? Isn't it the fact that it was cobbled together by vested interests ? And that the past 200 years or so has shown that it unravels on closer examination ? If it wasn't so why would I have posted so often, to so many different places, on various aspects of this myth ? You believe it because, well, because you can't imagine that it's a fairy story.
Name a few works by 'Mozart' and let's see how that goes, if you like.
But what else do you suggest ? Really, there must be a reason why somebody dares to suggest that to you, yes ? Is it, just possibly, because it's right ?
What I've said is correct. And, in the years to come you will find only more and more information confirming it to be so. That's my prediction. And yet, of course, this is only an introduction to that subject.
Was it all a giant scam ? Yes, it was. Not of average music. But of music of great quality and value. Judge for yourself having heard both sides of the story. That's a sensible thing to do.
Regards
Quote:
Originally Posted by Babbalanja
I am saying your ERS hornblower persona has room for improvement, let alone your attempt to provoke me. :hand:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERS
My interest for the "Mozart manufactured" subject has diminished so I suggest we continue with Philidor, the chess master-composer, an important alias of Gioachino Cocchi.
Having already checked him out (via my all aliases mastertimeline) I have no intention to repeat the exercise herein but, should anyone wish to dispute me, here is a good source thru which one may crosscheck his presences in London and Paris as well as his circle of friends (obviously the same as chessmaster-composer Rousseau):
"Crescendo of the virtuoso: spectacle, skill, and self-promotion in Paris" by Paul Metzner.
Regards!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMgx1...eature=related
Yanni,
This thread is on Mozart. Having waded through weeks of posts on the multiple lives of G. Cocchi I have no appetite to indulge you on François-André Danican Philidor (1726-95). Except to note that his style is much influenced by Rameau.
His works are as follows -
Le diable à quatre, ou La double métamorphose (3, M.-J. Sedaine), OC (PSL), 19 Aug 1756; pastiche with some new music by Baurans, J.-L. Laruette and Philidor (1757)
Blaise le savetier (1, Sedaine, after La Fontaine), OC (Foire St Germain), 9 March 1759 (1759), excerpts published separately
L’huître et les plaideurs, ou Le tribunal de la chicane (1, Sedaine), OC (PSL), 17 Sept 1759
Le quiproquo, ou Le volage fixé (1, Moustou), PCI (Bourgogne), 6 March 1760, excerpts (n.d.)
Le soldat magicien (1, L. Anseaume), OC (PSL), 14 Aug 1760 (?1760)
Le jardinier et son seigneur (1, Sedaine), OC (Foire St Germain), 18 Feb 1761 (1761)
Le maréchal ferrant (2, A.F. Quétant), OC (PSL), 22 Aug 1761 (1761), excerpts pubd separately
Sancho Pança dans son isle (1, A.A.H. Poinsinet, after M. de Cervantes: Don Quixote), PCI (Bourgogne), 8 July 1762 (?1762), excerpts pubd separately
Le bûcheron, ou Les trois souhaits (1, Guichard and N. Castet), PCI (Bourgogne), 28 Feb 1763 (?1763), excerpts pubd separately
Les fêtes de la paix (1, C.-S. Favart), PCI (Bourgogne), 4 July 1763, excerpts pubd with lib
Le sorcier (2, Poinsinet), PCI (Bourgogne), 2 Jan 1764 (?1764)
Tom Jones (3, Poinsinet, after H. Fielding), PCI (Bourgogne), 27 Feb 1765; rev. (3, Sedaine), 30 Jan 1766 (1766); vs ed. N. McGegan (London, 1978)
Le tonnelier (oc, 1, N.-M. Audinot and A.-F. Quétant, after La Fontaine: Le cuvier), PCI (Bourgogne), 16 March 1765 (c1765); collab. Alexandre, Ciapalanti, Gossec, Kohaut, J. Schobert and J.-C. Trial
Ernelinde, princesse de Norvège (tragédie lyrique, 3, Poinsinet, after F. Silvani: La fede tradita, e vendicata), Opéra, 24 Nov 1767; rev. as Sandomir, prince de Dannemarck, Opéra, 24 Jan 1769 (1769/R1992 in FO, lvi); rev. as Ernelinde (5, Sedaine), Versailles, 11 Dec 1773; rev., Opéra, 8 July 1777; vs (5 acts) ed. A. Pougin and C. Franck (1883), excerpts published separately
Le jardinier de Sidon (2, R.T.R. de Pleinchesne, after P. Metastasio: Il re pastore), PCI (Bourgogne), 18 July 1768 (?1768), excerpts published separately
L’amant déguisé, ou Le jardinier supposé (1, Favart and C.-H. de Voisenen), PCI (Bourgogne), 2 Sept 1769 (1770)
La rosière de Salency (3, Favart), Fontainebleau, 25 Oct 1769, excerpts with lib (1769), collab. Blaise, Duni, Monsigny, van Swieten
La nouvelle école des femmes (3, A. Mouslier de Moissy), PCI (Bourgogne), 22 Jan 1770, F-Pn
Le bon fils (1, F.A. Devaux [G.A. Lemonnier]), PCI (Bourgogne), 11 Jan 1773, excerpts (n.d.)
Zémire et Mélide (Mélide, ou Le navigateur) (2, C.G. Fenouillet de Falbaire), Fontainebleau, 30 Oct 1773 (1774), MS in 3 acts, intended for Opéra, Po
Berthe (3, Pleinchesne), Brussels, Monnaie, 18 Jan 1775, collab. H. Botson, Gossec, I. Vitzthumb
Les femmes vengées, ou Les feintes infidélités (1, Sedaine), PCI (Bourgogne), 20 March 1775 (1775)
Persée (tragédie lyrique, 3, J.F. Marmontel, after P. Quinault), Opéra, 27 Oct 1780, Po, excerpts pubd separately
Thémistocle (tragédie lyrique, 3, E. Morel de Chédeville), Fontainebleau, 13 Oct 1785 (1786)
L’amitié au village (3, Desforges [P.-J.-B. Choudard]), Fontainebleau, 18 Oct 1785, excerpts Pn
La belle esclave, ou Valcour et Zéïla (1, A.J. Dumaniant), Théâtre du Comte de Beaujolais, 18 Sept 1787 (?1787)
Le mari comme il les faudrait tous, ou La nouvelle école des maris (1, de Senne), Théâtre du Comte de Beaujolais, 12 Nov 1788
Bélisaire [Acts 1 and 2] (3, A.-L. Bertin d’Antilly, after Marmontel), OC (Favart), 3 Oct 1796 [Act 3 by H.-M. Berton]
Contribs. to: M.A. Charpentier: Le retour du printemps, perf. privately, Dec 1756; J.C. Gillier: Les pèlerins de la Mecque, PSL, 1758; J.-B.-M. Quinault: Le triomphe du temps, Versailles, 10 Dec 1761; Au Dieu qui vous enchaine, ariette in 1763 edn of J.-J. Rousseau: Le devin du village
Inc.: Protogène (Sedaine), 1779
Spurious: Le rendez-vous (P. Légier), 1763; La bagarre (P. van Maldere), 1763; Les puits d’amour, ou Les amours de Pierre de Long et de Blanche Bazu (Landrin), 1779; Le dormeur éveillé (Marmontel), 1783 [music by N. Piccinni]
//
None of the mature works attributed to Mozart have any connection with this composer Philidor although Philidor's links with Gossec, with Rousseau's 'Le Devin du Village' and with 'Il re pastore' (all refered to above) strongly suggest that the Paris network did have input into 'Mozart's' 'early works'. I am refering here to a Jesuit educated network (both musical and non-musical) of course. Which you may discover for yourself in the life and career of Gossec, again with Rousseau and certainly with Rameau (the latter definitely being a strong influence on Philidor's music). This network in Paris further confirmed by the sources of music for various 'early Mozart piano concertos', 4 known to be arrangements of works by Paris-based German keyboard composers such as Schubart etc.
//
Quote:
Originally Posted by Babbalanja
Istvan:
As soon as I am able, I will be happy to respond to - and affirm to at least some degree - all three of your questions at length.
I will provide some considerations that some may consider to be "outside the box";
that being said, I will do my level best to provide references to people, places and things. As for the "arcane conspiracy theories", I ask: If it's true, is is still a theory?
In the meantime, I will attempt to fabricate some better camouflage... I think my Sockpuppet/Hornblower cover has been blown... :yikes:
Darn - No flies on you, Babbalanja & Yanni. :blush:
I love this Thread!
Sincerely,
ERS
Definitely, Robert, this unique comment of yours re Philidor's style heavily influenced by Rameau (his uncle, huh?) may be labellled as a pearl of pearls, a motherpearl of your understanding of "music".
There are numerous articles online re Philidor's only tragedie lyrique, Ernelinde -heavily influenced by "Rousseau", "Gluck" and "Chastellux", favourably criticized later by "Grimm"-and there are still more articles on "Philidor's" friendhip and collaboration with Diderot, "Grimm's" and "Rousseau's" best friend as well so, instead of repeating your worthless fabrications , I suggest you either put up or shut up!
:hand:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicology
Yanni, I can do exactly as you ask. I can do even better. I will shut up on any subject which does not relate to the subject of this thread. Which (at the fourteenth time of telling) is 'The Manufacture of Mozart'.
So you will pardon me for noting that your game of aliases concerning G. Cocchi and now 'Rousseau', 'Gluck', Chastellux', 'Grimm' and Philidor (together with dozens of other part time 'wannabees' who float across these pages) becomes a hall of mirrors. Some more distorted than others. While this room is not a hall of mirrors and it remains dedicated to examing the manufacture of Mozart. A fact which may disgust you but which, on your recognition, may save our sanity and even yours in a world more and more filled by delusions, reflections, clones, aliases and counterfeits.
We can say with certainty that, 'The aliases have landed. Take me to your leader' etc. :rolleyes5:
Quote:
Originally Posted by yanni
Dedicated as you are to the manufacture of Mozart subject you have forgotten to add any research results and conclusions in this thread, any input, beyond the title!
:hand:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicology
I cite two references, respectively, from Wikipedia and The Michael Haydn Project Website:
1) “There was another case of posthumous mistaken identity involving Michael Haydn: for many years, the piece which is now known as Michael Haydn's Symphony No. 25 was thought to be Mozart's Symphony No. 37 and assigned K. 444. The confusion arose because an autograph was discovered which had the opening movement of the symphony in Mozart's hand, and the rest in somebody else's. It is now thought that Mozart had composed a new slow introduction for reasons unknown, but the rest of the work is known to be by Michael Haydn. The piece, which had been quite widely performed as a Mozart symphony, has been performed considerably less often since this discovery in 1907."
“Indeed, several of Michael Haydn's works influenced Mozart. To give just two examples: the Te Deum "which Wolfgang was later to follow very closely in K. 141"[10] and the finale of the Symphony No. 23 which influenced the finale of the G major Quartet, K. 387. (Max Kenyon, Mozart in Salzburg: A Study and Guide. New York: G. P. Putnam's Sons: 44)”
2) “Not very much of Michael Haydn's music was published in his lifetime, and only a part of this with his knowledge. A well-documented story about this, tells us how Nannerl Mozart acted as an agent for Breitkopf & Härtel in Leipzig and secured copies of his works behind his back for publishing without paying him fees. [Ruth Halliwell : The Mozart Family]”
Does this not beg the question: If Mozart’s “37th Symphony” was in reality Michael Haydn's 25th, where is Mozart’s actual “37th Symphony”? There remains a void here which has not been addressed or corrected – that is, why not renumber Mozart’s last four symphonies with the historical explanation? And why has Michael Haydn’s 25th Symphony been relegated to the dustbin of history?
Funny how it was good enough to perform when it was deemed to have been written by “Mozart”; even more funny how it did not qualitatively and stylistically stand out like the proverbial sore thumb prior to this discovery…
And what of this matter with Nannerl? If her Husband “Wolfie” (read: “Amadeus”) was such a creative powerhouse, why would she need to fence other composers works behind their backs?? I’d be curious about how many of those hawked works had “Wolfie’s” ubiquitous Trademark scrawled upon them.
Could it be that the whole matter has become a sticky Tar Baby because a pre-ordained paradigm was challenged?
Let us consider a legal allegory:
In court, the job of a defense attorney (or prosecuting attorney, for that matter) is to establish reasonable doubt. When reasonable doubt has been established, the jury is sanctioned to decide either in the affirmative or negative. The judge, of course, accepts this verdict and passes sentence. If the judge is prejudiced (in which case he should have readily recused himself from the case and any related proceedings) he likely will either not accept the verdict, or will render a markedly reduced (or stiffened) penalty, depending, of course, on the direction and intensity of his sentiments.
Robert’s work and research have already established - in my mind – “reasonable doubt” about the accuracy – and truthfulness - of what we have been told about this “Wunderkind”.
Are those who question the Mozart paradigm the jury, and the official musical establishment the biased judge?
When defending the British Regulars (in November, 1770) accused in the March 5th Boston Massacre where five Colonial men (including Crispus Attucks) and boys were killed by musket fire, then-attorney John Adams said: “Facts are stubborn things, gentlemen.”
Are the growing inconsistencies surrounding the Mozart Myth just as stubborn?
Was I disappointed when, as a kid, I learned that the Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny and Santa Claus were fairy tales? You bet.
It seems that they were not the only fables told…
And Cocchi also had a chess player alias? My, our good Italian appears to have had more identities than there are Chins in the Beijing White Pages…
:lol: :lol:
Yanni,
We might compare this to a sweet shop (perhaps better known to our transatlantic cousins as a 'candy store') which has been invaded by children who have pulled all the chocolates, candies, and other nice things out of their boxes. So that in spite of the confusion of the scene caused by various contributors, (all welcomed), is its title. A thread whose title you pay lip service to but have never tasted for yourself.
It remains my view (and I think others agree) that the role of numerous composers (including G. Cocchi, Philidor and others) was significant in 18th century music, overlapping with the manufacture of Mozart. And, in many cases in a major way. But, just as we have great paintings which were once attributed to famous painters but now belong to the 'school of Reubens or van Dyke, or the 'school of Raphael' etc. so also we have a network of musical composers surrounding what can describe as the musical manufacture of Mozart. But nobody (with the exception of Yanni) has said all these people were all the same person.
And so, you see, I am more keen to give G. Cocchi his proper place in the history of music than you might suppose. It's simply that I do not wish to replace one pagan icon with another.
I attach a famous song from the 1940's which a friend sent to me the other day. Nice stuff, yes ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVdoZNxtL8k
Quote:
Originally Posted by yanni
For a hornblower with a lawyer flare, you are obviously confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by ERS
Composer -chess player Rousseau's chess match with David Hume is legendary already and I have no doubt that Gioachino Cocchi and general Washington enjoyed the game too.
Jefferson certainly did (study Philidor and joined his chess society while in Paris) but there is no record of ever playing with him.
http://www.chess.com/article/view/us...ents-and-chess
:smilielol5:
..then ask for carbon credits!
Indeed this tragedie lyrique is staged in a candy store emptied, during our lifetime, by greedy children but this is no reason for playing dead, rabbit or chicken, Robert, otherwise we'll all "go bananas":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3ZYP...eature=related
:hand:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicology
Yanni,
Questioning your aliases is not difficult. A man plays chess and this is seen as proof that he is another person. Well, here is the entry in the 'Grove' Dictionary of Music and Musicians on Philidor. It refers to the following -
As a page-boy in the royal chapel at Versailles, he (Philidor) received a good musical education with André Campra, the maître de chapelle; he also learnt the favourite pastime of the musicians, chess.
So there were lots of chess-playing musicians of that time. And not just a few. It was the favourite pastime of musicians of the time !
Also -
From 1740 Philidor lived in Paris, performing, teaching and, in the family tradition, copying music. He also assisted Rousseau, in an unknown manner, with Les muses galantes. His skill at chess marked him out earlier than his musical gifts. At the Café de la Régence he came into contact with many of the brightest minds of the time, including Diderot who was to call him, in Le neveu de Rameau, ‘Philidor le subtil’.
Philidor was best known as a professional chess player. Rousseau was not best known as a chess player. Was he ? Nor was Grimm, or any other of the aliases you seem to determined to force on Cocchi and now on Philidor. Who, themselves, may well have played chess. And why not ?
I myself play chess, as does half of the world, I suppose. Are we candidates for your theory ?
Far more interesting and relevant is Philidor was undoubtedly associated with the early years of the 'Enlightenment'. Which included Encyclopaedists such as Diderot, and musical contacts such as the Jesuit educated Rameau and others. And that the early musical stage works attributed to Mozart definitely came from this network spread across Europe of which Philidor was certainly a part. As was Cocchi. But none of this proves Rousseau was Philidor or anyone else. The evidence continues to suggest we are describing a huge fraternal network who spanned most of the Holy Roman Empire and beyond. Who, together, were agents of the emerging 'Englightenment' philosophy. And amongst whose musical achievements was music which was attributed to a certain W.A. Mozart, amongst others. This process did not involve one talented composer or even several. But many composers, music editors, publishers, and members of the same fraternities. Including your G. Cocchi, Philidor and others.
But if you have evidence which suggests differently I'm always happy to see it.
Here is a spring planting song (for those planting potatoes, I mean) -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDIpkz6DOi8
Quote:
Originally Posted by yanni
How many of your numerous chess playing-musicians were "connected" enough to successfully stage operas in Paris 1760-1790 and regularly visit London as well, do you know?
:smilielol5:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicology
Yanni,
Chess was very widely played in the 18th century. By composers, artists, teachers, and by the general society. There were no televisions, DVD's, or other electronic distractions.
Amongst the modern composers Prokofiev was a noted chess player, all of his adult life.
But, to get to your question, we might ask -
Which visiting composers of the period 1760-90 to London did NOT play chess ? It may be a smaller list than those who were chess players. :smilielol5:
My question was quite specific and so was the absence of your answer!
"Philidor" was a rare, very "in", opera composer in Paris until he "associated" himself with "Gluck" in "their" Ernelinda.
Enjoy your chicken broth!
:hand:
:frown2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Newman, uh I mean ERS
Robert, have you no shame?
Regards,
Istvan
You are nothing if not motivated, gentlemen. Some might suggest monomaniacal... but I'll not go further in that direction... except to suggest that such might apply better to a theme on Berlioz. The problem with the aliases is that they lack any originality. Now on another literature site that I once frequented there was one member who wrote under several aliases... all of whom had a predilection for Baudelaire, Lautreamont, Rimbaud, Celine, and the Marquis de Sade. One of the more memorable aliases was a gorgeous, 21-year old kick-boxing nymphomaniac from Australia who just happened to have a deep abiding passion for S&M and dark French literature. Certainly the author's ideal. A woman with a cute accent who could hurt him on many levels while reciting favorite passages from Les Fleurs du Mal. Regardless... carry on with your experiments in Borgesian fictions, Gentlemen!:biggrinjester:
Robert, have you no shame?
Regards,
Istvan
Yes... it is a bit self-serving as fiction. Perhaps a persona who challenges Robert's monomaniacal theories with an equally inventive alternative...? Or at least a kick-boxing nymphomaniac with an accent and a penchant for Poe.
Nice try Babbalanja,
This thread is on the manufacture of Mozart. You clearly do not like the way it is going. So you attribute to me the posts of others. Why not contribute on the subject of this thread ? Which, as you see, is continually being diverted by irrelevancies.
As for the contents of other posters on this thread, why not write to them yourself and spare us anything except your posts on the subject of W.A. Mozart.
You don't have any, do you ? That becomes more and more obvious.
Best wishes
Quote:
Originally Posted by Babbalanja
And there the truth was told 'em...
And ev'ry morning went to prayer,
And then began disputing,
Till oppositions silenced were,
By arguments refuting.
Now politicians of all kinds,
Who are not yet decided,
May see how Yankees speak their minds,
And yet are not divided.
So here I end my Fed'ral song,
Composed of thirteen verses;
May agriculture flourish long
And commerce fill our purses!
:Angel_anim:
Yanni,
Since this thread is on 'The Manufacture of Mozart' I will decline your offer to discuss aliases of Philidor and Cocchi. And will remain, as usual, dedicated to the subject of this thread. Which, believe it or not is, 'The Manufacture of Mozart'.
Does this make sense to you ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by yanni
Yanni,
Since this thread is on 'The Manufacture of Mozart' I will decline your offer to discuss aliases of Philidor and Cocchi. And will remain, as usual, dedicated to the subject of this thread. Which, believe it or not is, 'The Manufacture of Mozart'.
Does this make sense to you ?
Do feel free to open a thread on 'Cocchi', or 'Philidor', or on 18th century chess players.
Regards
Quote:
Originally Posted by yanni
Well, Yanni,
Here's the first movement to a famous work.
attr. 'Josef Haydn'
Symphony No. 92 - 'The Oxford'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_114...eature=related
And another -
attr. 'Josef Haydn'
Symphony No. 104 - 'The London'
Finale
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvcgu...eature=related
(Well, that's what the textbooks say, at least ! The music is wonderful and we don't need to haggle too much about the true composer.)
Robert,
Is there evidence to suggest that Haydn's story is dodgy as well?
By suggesting Forkel instead, Robert selects to ignore music paedagogue and lexicographer Heinrich Christoph "Koch", who recognised Mozart's mastery in his "Haydn" quartets, 1785 (In Koch's "Lexikon", around 1793).
After hearing them all, Haydn made a now-famous remark to Mozart's father Leopold, who was visiting from Salzburg: "Before God, and as an honest man, I tell you that your son is the greatest composer known to me either in person or by name. He has taste, and, what is more, the most profound knowledge of composition."[3] The comment was preserved in a letter Leopold wrote 16 February to his daughter Nannerl.[4] (Wiki)
But then, Robert refuses to address any relative (to "Koch") issue, including Krause's correspondence (because of the unfortunate "Carl Ludwig Cocceji")
On the subject of "Koch" sharing the same music principles (melody vs harmony, ie Rameau vs Rousseau/Grimm or the buffon debate, later "Gluck" vs Piccininni) with paedagogue-lexicographer "Rousseau", see http://www.fedegarcia.net/writings/period.pdf
But then, again, Robert wants us to believe that "Rousseau's" alias "Philidor" supported Rameau's principles.
IE
a)"Koch" was a master chessplayer.
b)Robert is a faithfull servant of the Music Industry!!!
...and the identity of the London "Bach" is still pending!
:smilielol5:
ERS,
Yes indeed ERS ! The foundations of the 'Wiener Klassik' (so-called) and which consists of Josef Haydn, W.A. Mozart and Ludwig van Beethoven have been called in recent years 'the final frontier of musicological research', and quite rightly.
The symphonies of Joseph Haydn (for example) have their true origins in the supply to Esterhazy of works by composers such as Sammartini and (later, from 1771 onwards) by Andrea Luchesi, the newly appointed Kapellmeister at Bonn. Indeed, the 'autographs' of 'Haydn's' symphonies show them to have been written in his hand long, long after their supposed date of composition. The expert in this area of study is Giorgio Taboga of Italy, who has closely examined the whole subject of Haydn's career. Also known as 'Papa' Haydn, that is ! It too is a long story. At the Estense Library in Modena are various masses and symphonies attributed to Josef Haydn which show clear evidence of having existed far earlier than their supposed composition dates. I have a lot of information on this subject, but became so busy with the Mozart book that it remains, till now, hardly touched. The same is true of 'Haydn's' operas. Indeed the attribution of music to Josef Haydn (much of which is really fine music) has a very different story from that of convention.
Regards
Robert (Newman)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERS
Yanni,
Thank you for your rather strange last post. May I correct you ?
Musical pedagogue and lexicographer Heinrich Christoph Koch 'recognised the mastery of 'Mozart's' so-called 'Haydn' quartets years after Mozart's death. In 1793, fully 8 years after their date of composition, when Mozart was, as said, already dead. The same year when he completely fails to refer to any of 'Mozart's' piano concertos. A strange oversight, yes ? As for these 'Mozart' string quartets (a subject which you have clearly not made any study of) they were declared at the time (1785) to be riddled with errors and musical absurdities by musical writers of the time. Including the Vienna based librettist and writer, Casti. In fact Casti laughed at these 'Mozart' works and they finally re-appeared years later in a much 'improved' musical form. The letter Casti wrote on this subject finally disappeared in Italy and is mocking of these 'Mozart's string quartets' (his earlier set from the time of his youth being blatantly based on those attributed to Josef Haydn and of very weak musical content).
The statement made by Haydn to Mozart's father is sheer moonshine. Both Haydn and Mozart came from the same fraudulent bucket. The same Haydn who refused repeatedly to come to Italy, and whose 'operas' were NOT performed in London. Indeed, at the time of Haydn's visits to England, Haydn could hardly hold a pen in his hand. (Suffering as he was with a debilitating neural illness). So much for the compositional 'genius of Haydn'. The works attributed to him there (including these last symphonies) were supplied TO HIM, before he ever arrived in England. From Bonn. Including the symphonies refered to above. I even have the text of a copy of the letter accompanying the contract made between Haydn and the impresario Salomon for these England tours which describes Josef Haydn at that time as being (and I quote) an 'unknown composer' and willing to accept a small fraction of usual payments for 'his' music from English publishers because of it. Needless to say, this never gets a reference in mainstream publications.
So much for facts and for fiction !
Meanwhile, back at Bonn, the unknown Kapellmeister Andrea Luchesi................ LOL !! And you hear in this 'Haydn' anticipations of Beethoven's own style, don't you ? And who was Luchesi ? - if he was not the true composition teacher in Bonn of one Ludwig van Beethoven. Amongst others.
Yes, Haydn loved Bonn. Visiting there before each tour of England and also on return from both visits there. It 'helped' his musical reputation in England no end - courtesy of Salomon/Neefe/Simrock and others. LOL. Not forgetting Maestro Luchesi, of course !!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by yanni