Why I believe in God?

Daniel; You asked who says that law of nature need setter?

I answered with that Einstein quote; Do you think, that trowing dive could create all those laws. Your way to think is just like if i would say that goverment laws are not set. No-one has written them, they just appeared. Or what if you are going into art-museum, and you will see beautiful painting, and i say, that it appeared from nothing. Make any sense? Or if i say, that that Swiss wristwatch came from nothing? Beside, for exaple moons and stars are much accurate thanany clock. Well, I say that all those Rolex watches are coming from nothing. Do you believe that?

BTW: Nature is MUCH more complicated and much beautiful that anything, that man has ever created.

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Originally Posted by JommiL

Daniel; You asked who says that law of nature need setter?

I answered with that Einstein quote; Do you think, that trowing dive could create all those laws. Your way to think is just like if i would say that goverment laws are not set. No-one has written them, they just appeared. Or what if you are going into art-museum, and you will see beautiful painting, and i say, that it appeared from nothing. Make any sense? Or if i say, that that Swiss wristwatch came from nothing? Beside, for exaple moons and stars are much accurate thanany clock. Well, I say that all those Rolex watches are coming from nothing. Do you believe that?

BTW: Nature is MUCH more complicated and much beautiful that anything, that man has ever created.

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Great comments!!

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Originally Posted by JommiL

Daniel; You asked who says that law of nature need setter?

I answered with that Einstein quote; Do you think, that trowing dive could create all those laws. Your way to think is just like if i would say that goverment laws are not set. No-one has written them, they just appeared. Or what if you are going into art-museum, and you will see beautiful painting, and i say, that it appeared from nothing. Make any sense? Or if i say, that that Swiss wristwatch came from nothing? Beside, for exaple moons and stars are much accurate thanany clock. Well, I say that all those Rolex watches are coming from nothing. Do you believe that?

BTW: Nature is MUCH more complicated and much beautiful that anything, that man has ever created.

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Besides the fact that you're misquoting Einstein, who was speaking of his disbelief in the probabilistic nature of quantum physics, and the fact that Einstein was wrong on this one.

Order appears spontaneously all the time. Snowflakes form spontaneously and are highly ordered structures, as are claybeds, rock strata, whirlpools, etc.

The analogy of man made objects is a false analogy. As to moons and stars being more accurate than wristwatches... Well that's just silly. Time first of all is relative based on the velocity you are traveling at. If you're traveling at the speed of light time for you would progress slower than it would be for us here on Earth. Although, you wouldn't notice because it is relative, time would progress relatively slower for you, but for you on the spaceship traveling at light speed it would feel normal.

Also, days, minutes, and seconds are man made concepts for measuring time, and I don't see how you think stars and moons measure time... I could arbitrarily decide that a minute is 75 seconds and then that would make every hour 48 minutes, my system of time measurement would be just as consistent as yours, I would just have to make a second mean a different measurement of time. If I were on Mars the moons would pass several times in an "Earth day", but a Mars year would be several Earth years.

The problem with science is that it moves at an incredibly fast and increasing rate, almost everyday discoveries are made that correct previous assumptions. What people learn in their physics or chemistry class in high school is almost always outdated. Only if you are a scientist yourself in a particular field is it possible to be on the cutting edge. As such people tend to stick with what they know of science and disregard it subsequently as not fitting their own view of the universe, nature or whatever you want to call it.

Comprehending science is not easy, and sometimes it is easier to simply belief in 'something', many people say they belief in science, but what they really are saying is that science is their new religion. This is more or less equal to believing in God, which was the explanation given to natural phenomena in times when science wasn't advanced enough to explain them. The idea of God stuck and evolved only slightly from a natural phenomena to for example an entity that created and or controls nature/ and now people are taught that God exist, much the same way nowadays people belief that what science says is always true. The skeptic and other critical thinkers understand that nothing is certain, but that we can assume certain aspects of science, such as evolution to be accurate based on empirical evidence, even though it can always benefit from further evidence.

I do not want to deny anyone the right to belief what they want, but I do wish to encourage critical thinking, and as such I will always question their belief, as I do my own convictions, I have yet to hear a reasonable, critical explanation for the belief in a God such as the Judeo-Christian God of the bible and Torah. I recognize that people can find strength in their beliefs. What I regret is that they do not realize that the strength is already there in their own personality/existence without the need of a God or other superior being to guide them.

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Originally Posted by JommiL

BTW: Nature is MUCH more complicated and much beautiful that anything, that man has ever created.

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By the way, that's exactly what suggests that the process by which Nature got that way is quite different than the process by which man creates, i.e. intelligent design.

Regards,

Istvan

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Originally Posted by JommiL

Daniel; You asked who says that law of nature need setter?

I answered with that Einstein quote; Do you think, that trowing dive could create all those laws. Your way to think is just like if i would say that goverment laws are not set. No-one has written them, they just appeared. Or what if you are going into art-museum, and you will see beautiful painting, and i say, that it appeared from nothing. Make any sense? Or if i say, that that Swiss wristwatch came from nothing? Beside, for exaple moons and stars are much accurate thanany clock. Well, I say that all those Rolex watches are coming from nothing. Do you believe that?

BTW: Nature is MUCH more complicated and much beautiful that anything, that man has ever created.

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Where did God come from?

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Originally Posted by MSDGreen

Where did God come from?

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Hehehhe, you remind me something. Long time ago, my first graders used to ask me this : "Where did God come from? "

I don't know why we keep arguing. The more we try to hammer the point home, the more creationists plug their ears and close their eyes... "la la la la I can't hear you!" I don't know why they keep at it, but they do. It is more reasonable to think up a religious theory that takes evolution into account, you can't just ignore scientific facts and hope that they go away. I don't know how you would go about blending science and religion, maybe mutation/natural selection/evolution is the mechanism by which god(s) act... whatever, the point is, I can't respect any religion that chooses to ignore facts outright rather than change with the times. That's counter-productive.

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Originally Posted by Babbalanja

I simply assume that calling me a "dope" has to compensate for your inability to engage any of my actual statements.

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Haha, don't feel bad. Once, I disagreed with Virgil about American politics so he wrote:

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Certainly it would have been interesting to have discussed this with someone who had knowledge of history or economics or had a job or paid bills or had been out in the world or even visited the United States. This is what happens when some 20 year old dope is fed a bunch of garbage over the internet and thinks they understand another country.

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It's always the quiet ones.

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Originally Posted by Lacra

Hehehhe, you remind me something. Long time ago, my first graders used to ask me this : "Where did God come from? "

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Out of the mouthes of babes.

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Originally Posted by Lacra

Hehehhe, you remind me something. Long time ago, my first graders used to ask me this : "Where did God come from? "

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The post that I was replying to was trying to say that because something exists, such as a watch, then it unreasonable to say that it came from nothing. Well using that logic, and assuming that God does exist then he/she must have been created by something intelligent, or must be designed. Watches were made by man, and so was God*. Maybe you could get one of your first graders to draw it out in crayon for you?

*This opinion has been crafted by the facts as they are. Should someone offer proof that there is indeed a God/Gods I will gladly change that.**

**Not being able to disprove something does not make that certain something true.

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Originally Posted by MSDGreen

The post that I was replying to was trying to say that because something exists, such as a watch, then it unreasonable to say that it came from nothing. Well using that logic, and assuming that God does exist then he/she must have been created by something intelligent, or must be designed. Watches were made by man, and so was God*. Maybe you could get one of your first graders to draw it out in crayon for you?

*This opinion has been crafted by the facts as they are. Should someone offer proof that there is indeed a God/Gods I will gladly change that.**

**Not being able to disprove something does not make that certain something true.

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To draw for me? Why for me? My answer wasn't ironical, it was just memory, that's all!

Funny thing, and revealing; Human mind is so tiny to understand eternity. As bible says, God has no beginning and no end.

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Originally Posted by Lacra

To draw for me? Why for me? My answer wasn't ironical, it was just memory, that's all!

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If that is the case I apologize. I am glad that I could bring a moment of nostalgia for you. I hope you do understand how one can view your comment as being ironical.

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Originally Posted by JommiL

Funny thing, and revealing; Human mind is so tiny to understand eternity. As bible says, God has no beginning and no end.

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That which is Spirit can be eternal, while that which is physical cannot...according to our Laws of Physics...

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Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC

That which is Spirit can be eternal, while that which is physical cannot...according to our Laws of Physics...

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Dude, the Laws of Physics say nothing about "Spirit" or "eternity", in case you didn't know, physics has nothing to do with anything but the physical world, it has nothing to say about the spiritual world or it's existence/non-existence because it isn't philosophy or religion.

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Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC

while that which is physical cannot...according to our Laws of Physics...

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2nd Law

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Originally Posted by BienvenuJDC

That which is Spirit can be eternal, while that which is physical cannot...according to our Laws of Physics...

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Which particular law of physics is that? Did they repeal the first law of thermodynamics ("Energy and Matter in the universe are constant") when no one was looking?

Regards,

Istvan

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Originally Posted by DanielBenoit

Dude, the Laws of Physics say nothing about "Spirit" or "eternity", in case you didn't know, physics has nothing to do with anything but the physical world, it has nothing to say about the spiritual world or it's existence/non-existence because it isn't philosophy or religion.

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Daniel, check out a book called the Physics of Christianity...there are also other books written by physicists that cover the subject of cosmological singularity.

W a r n i n g

Posts containing personal/inflammatory/disrespectful comments will be removed.

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Orphan; No it is not silly. Because scientists can calculate exact position for moon and planets, because they are moving extremely accurate.

Let me ask one question; EVERY material in this world will shrink when it´s temperature is getting colder. But there´s one exception. What it is? Water. Why? Because if water would shrink when it turns into ice, it would get more heavier than normal water, and it would sink into bottom of the seas. Result would be that quite soon bottom of the seas would be filled with ice. Do you think this is just coincidence?

Let´s get forward; Why earth is in angled? It´s position is not straight. If it would be straight, other side on the earth would be very hot, and other would be filled with ice. No reason to say, would this kind of circumstances allow that kind of rich life, that we see here now? Now when that little angle exists, we have opportunity to see and feel and live in different seasons.

And also; If nature has no laws, why very often we must copy things from it? Very few materials has that kind of features that there´s in nature. Let´s think about bones. Bones has very strong structure, they are very tough, but still they are very, very light. What happen, if our bones would be something like a steel? Moving would be quite difficult. And why bones are often hollow? Because hollow bone is A/ lighter and B/ stronger than solid one.

What if ozon layer would missing? What if earth would be littlebit more closer on farer from the sun? What if there´s no such thing like gravity? Can you imagine? Why just we have something like air? How our senses, mind, consciousness and thought are born? How we can see colours? Are these coincidences too? If you see even a henhouse in the fields, you would ever believe, if i told you that it came from nothing. And gravity... well, it is littlebit larger and more difficult thing than henhouse.

Perhaps you should read some chapters from book of Job, for example 38 and 39, and think again about your question?

I have no idea where you learned basic chemistry, but I suggest you go back to it. All liquids become more dense as they get colder, as ice forms it becomes less dense because of the structure of the rigid hydrogen bonds.

The notion of the fine-tuned Earth is by itself logically flawed. If the Earth were not capable of sustaining life, then life would not have been able to evolve, or it would have evolved differently.

You are attaching tautologies to natural processes because you want to see a purpose in it. What you are doing is no different from the ancient Greeks assuming that lightning was the anger of the gods.

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Originally Posted by JommiL

Orphan; No it is not silly. Because scientists can calculate exact position for moon and planets, because they are moving extremely accurate.

Let me ask one question; EVERY material in this world will shrink when it´s temperature is getting colder. But there´s one exception. What it is? Water. Why? Because if water would shrink when it turns into ice, it would get more heavier than normal water, and it would sink into bottom of the seas. Result would be that quite soon bottom of the seas would be filled with ice. Do you think this is just coincidence?

Let´s get forward; Why earth is in angled? It´s position is not straight. If it would be straight, other side on the earth would be very hot, and other would be filled with ice. No reason to say, would this kind of circumstances allow that kind of rich life, that we see here now? Now when that little angle exists, we have opportunity to see and feel and live in different seasons.

And also; If nature has no laws, why very often we must copy things from it? Very few materials has that kind of features that there´s in nature. Let´s think about bones. Bones has very strong structure, they are very tough, but still they are very, very light. What happen, if our bones would be something like a steel? Moving would be quite difficult. And why bones are often hollow? Because hollow bone is A/ lighter and B/ stronger than solid one.

What if ozon layer would missing? What if earth would be littlebit more closer on farer from the sun? What if there´s no such thing like gravity? Can you imagine? Why just we have something like air? How our senses, mind, consciousness and thought are born? How we can see colours? Are these coincidences too? If you see even a henhouse in the fields, you would ever believe, if i told you that it came from nothing. And gravity... well, it is littlebit larger and more difficult thing than henhouse.

Perhaps you should read some chapters from book of Job, for example 38 and 39, and think again about your question?

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And yet none of these things mean that it was designed. There are a seemingly endless amount of planets orbiting a seemingly endless amount of stars. (I am no astronomer by any means, but this is my understanding of it). What are the chances that one of these or many of these planets have the capabilities to support life or act exactly as the earth acts. When given so many possibilities it seems plausible that what has happened would happen, given a large enough pool of possibilities. It is truly amazing that we are here, and it does feel like a gift to be alive, but to chalk all this up to a all powerful being without any proof that one does or ever did exist is not an option for me. In my opinion, it takes away of what is actually amazing about Earth.

Well, then too all those wristwatches are from emptiness, no-one has build them...

But you got the point of water anyway. Dont you?

Lets ask this way; What would be proof of designing to you?

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Originally Posted by JommiL

Well, then too all those wristwatches are from emptiness, no-one has build them...

But you got the point of water anyway. Dont you?

Lets ask this way; What would be proof of designing to you?

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Gallium exands when frozen too. Short of a manifestation by a deity, that is not induced in a dream state or a hallucination, a miracle I guess, witnessing something that is impossible.

What would it take to shake your faith to the point where you could no longer believe in your creator?

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Originally Posted by MSDGreen

What would it take to shake your faith to the point where you could no longer believe in your creator?

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why is this necessary? Please respect the rights of others to their beliefs. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by MSDGreen

The post that I was replying to was trying to say that because something exists, such as a watch, then it unreasonable to say that it came from nothing. Well using that logic, and assuming that God does exist then he/she must have been created by something intelligent, or must be designed. Watches were made by man, and so was God*. Maybe you could get one of your first graders to draw it out in crayon for you?

*This opinion has been crafted by the facts as they are. Should someone offer proof that there is indeed a God/Gods I will gladly change that.**

**Not being able to disprove something does not make that certain something true.

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Yes.. I am familiar with this argument. But let's use the word "source" for a moment instead of "creator."

The first question to address is, "does everything have a source?"

I believe the answer to this is fairly clearly yes. Everything does indeed have a source. Now the idea that because everything has a source, there can't be an original source of everything, that doesn't make sense -- and yet that is what the argument used boils down to. The argument says, "Well, what is the source of the original source?" And if there isn't a good answer, then the conclusion "There is no source." But this doesn't disprove that everything has a source...

So I guess it comes down simply to that question, Does everything have a source? Does the universe have a source? If everything does, then the universe does...

Anyway it's remarkable how universal this idea is... and in fact how many people's spirituality consists of this... and not a God who smites people.

In my mind it's clear that it is a logical idea to say the universe has a source, and that there are existences, realities, dimensions, beyond what we currently know. To say there's no dimensions, realities, existence beyond what we know at this moment, to say there cannot be, that is the height of ignorance...

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Originally Posted by Haunted

why is this necessary? Please respect the rights of others to their beliefs. Thanks.

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Good point but i´ll give my answer;

Just because there´s too much things in life that cannot find from wordbook of atheists. There´s too many "coincidents" in this universe, which - in VERY strange way are just too perfect.

Why earth is in angled? It´s position is not straight. If it would be straight, other side on the earth would be very hot, and other would be filled with ice. No reason to say, would this kind of circumstances allow that kind of rich life, that we see here now? Now when that little angle exists, we have opportunity to see and feel and live in different seasons.


Yeah - good point!! And another thing - if there's no God, how come all the Australian animals are in Australia? I mean, not most of them - every single one!

Coincidence??!?? I think not, Mr Arnie so-called Atheist.

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Originally Posted by MarkBastable

And another thing - if there's no God, how come all the Australian animals are in Australia? I mean, not most of them - every single one!

Coincidence??!?? I think not, Mr Arnie so-called Atheist.

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Amen, brother. I also think it's significant that in God's precise and perfect Creation, the ratio of a circle's diameter to its circumference is exactly 22 divided by 7.

Not about 22 divided by seven, exactly 22 divided by seven.

Explain how that happens without an omnipotent Creator.

Regards,

Istvan Pangloss

Actually, if we had twenty-two fingers and seven toes and a perfectly round head, I'd probably believe in God.

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Originally Posted by Babbalanja

Amen, brother. I also think it's significant that in God's precise and perfect Creation, the ratio of a circle's diameter to its circumference is exactly 22 divided by 7.

Not about 22 divided by seven, exactly 22 divided by seven.

Explain how that happens without an omnipotent Creator.

Regards,

Istvan Pangloss

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Originally Posted by Haunted

why is this necessary? Please respect the rights of others to their beliefs. Thanks.

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Please understand I am not trying take away anyones right to believe what they like. A question was asked of me and I answered as best I could and returned the question. The question was modified so that it was relevant. If you don't want to answer the question that is fine, but try to respect my right to ask people questions. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by MarkBastable

Actually, if we had twenty-two fingers and seven toes and a perfectly round head, I'd probably believe in God.

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Enough of your impiety, Mark.

Consider the fact that if the loving Creator hadn't made retroviruses, trypanosomes, and birth defects, scientists wouldn't have to expand their knowledge to try to eradicate these things. And then where would we be?

Hard evidence, my friend, that the Lord works in mysterious ways.

Regards,

Istvan

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Originally Posted by JommiL

Good point but i´ll give my answer;

Just because there´s too much things in life that cannot find from wordbook of atheists. There´s too many "coincidents" in this universe, which - in VERY strange way are just too perfect.

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Your faith is a good thing for all of us. :)

What I don't get... those militant atheist... when I used to read their posts.. they consider all of us believers to be the "same." Even though some are fundamentalists, some are liberals, etc., etc... for me God is the sacred, the holy, the consecrate, the divine... the divine being full bliss, peace, knowledge, power, etc...

And scientists have come to a conclusion... that the universe is a like a holographic universe...and an infinitely repeating fractal pattern... which is something I thought of long before...

Some people don't realize this and that the scientists have come to these conclusions, which reveal a lot of beauty, complexity, (also simplicity) and mystery to the universe... they just hate those things!.. they would prefer every scientists to be a staunch atheist. :p

MSDGreen, yes, i understand your point.

Mark; Ah, How´s in Australia? I truly want to visit in that country in some day. I Live in Finland - and it is very cold in here and winter... well, a LOT more of snow in here than in Australia!

Good question. Also there was Indians in America, Blacks in Africa, idiots in Finland etc. No-one knows exactly, how old earth is, but to ME it could make sense, that in some day - many, many thousands years ago earth´s ground was much more solid. If you check out the world map, you see, that Africa and south-America will fit together as figure? Anyway, my point of view is that if this theory is true, perhaps kangaroos had one large population earlier in specific location - in that magnificent, endless landscape on Australia, and then land fell down, and water separated Australia from mainland? Fact is, that land is living all the time. Most of the kangaroos had to stay in Australia, and then, after all, population was stronger there? Also human being and most of the animals MUST stay with they friends and with they race, because other oppornity is to die.

Think this and tell me, what do you think? I will gladly hear your opinion.

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Originally Posted by JommiL

Well, then too all those wristwatches are from emptiness, no-one has build them...

But you got the point of water anyway. Dont you?

Lets ask this way; What would be proof of designing to you?

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Perhaps a big sign written in the sky. He could use the northern lights or something. It could say: "HELLO DOWN THERE! Yes it's me, GOD, and I did create the Universe- so think on!"

That would be enough. Not much to ask of someone who can make ice bergs float, is it?

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Originally Posted by NikolaiI

And scientists have come to a conclusion... that the universe is a like a holographic universe...and an infinitely repeating fractal pattern... which is something I thought of long before...

Some people don't realize this and that the scientists have come to these conclusions, which reveal a lot of beauty, complexity, (also simplicity) and mystery to the universe... they just hate those things!.. they would prefer every scientists to be a staunch atheist. :p

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I just wonder why it matters what scientists think. Many times I've said that I believe people profess faith for reasons that have nothing to do with facts and evidence. All this talk about the physics of religion seems irrelevant.

What I'd prefer is that believers be honest about the reason for their faith, that it's something that comes from within each one of them. No more cod statistics. No more pseudoscientific rationalizations. And no more of your New Age word salads.

Regards,

Istvan

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Originally Posted by NikolaiI

What I don't get... those militant atheist... when I used to read their posts.. they consider all of us believers to be the "same." Even though some are fundamentalists, some are liberals, etc., etc...

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Speaking as a militant atheist, I don't think that's true. Amongst my siblings, with whom I get on very well, I can identify the following: a staunch Baptist who's a pillar of the church; a trained minister who lost his faith in God but who has developed a fondness for the rituals of the Catholic Church; a pragmatic agnostic who as a young and less sceptical man smuggled Bibles into Soviet Russia; and a sister who's entirely unengaged with any kind of religious debate on the basis that it's less interesting than almost everything else. I have atheist friends, Christian friends, Muslim friends, Jewish friends and Hindu friends. (This isn't because I'm a particularly gregarious and tolerant guy - it just goes with being a Londoner.)

But sticking with the varied range of beliefs, currently and historically, among my siblings, I think it's worth asking why we get on well. It's because we share a view of the world that has to do with tolerance, kindness and the free, mutual expression of intellectual mockery - directed, often, at each other. We argue when we need to, we show utter lack of respect for each other's views when it amuses us to do so and we simply accept each other when that's what'll keep us all happy.

My Christian brother honestly believes that the fires of Hell await me, my (Catholic) wife and, unless something is done, my children. I think that he's kidding himself if he thinks he can avoid oblivion. However, we don't let any of this spoil dessert.

I don't see why religious beliefs should need the protection of some code of respect. Either beliefs stand up for themselves through reasoned argument or they don't. If they don't then we shouldn't expect people of reason to refrain from showing how ridiculous or irrelevant they are. Besides, beliefs should be criticised. And in doing so, it is not the believer or any individual that is under attack. It is the belief or view that is being held. If you feel that you are your belief or that your view is inextricably linked to your self, then that's your problem.

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Originally Posted by prendrelemick

Perhaps a big sign written in the sky. He could use the northern lights or something. It could say: "HELLO DOWN THERE! Yes it's me, GOD, and I did create the Universe- so think on!"

That would be enough. Not much to ask of someone who can make ice bergs float, is it?

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No, you would not do that, it´s only that airplane with some smoke in the tail...

Why? Do you understand, that that sign exists in WHOLE universe? And BTW: Do you remember, what happened to Noah? Do you remember, that road to tree was guarded with two angels & flaming sword. Noah told that flood will come. And still no-one listened. This is very good point to think - it is NOT even matter of faith always, only caring.

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Originally Posted by JommiL

No, you would not do that, it´s only that airplane with some smoke in the tail...

Why? Do you understand, that that sign exists in WHOLE universe? And BTW: Do you remember, what happened to Noah? Do you remember, that road to tree was guarded with two angels & flaming sword. Noah told that flood will come. And still no-one listened. This is very good point to think - it is NOT even matter of faith always, only caring.

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Not to mention the Pharisees who tried to discredit Christ's miracles as being from Beelzebub. If people don't want to believe, then they will deny anything.

Actually the crux of the matter is, if you want to believe you'll believe anything. Virgin birth? No problem. Raising people from the dead? No problem. Miracles happening in a physical predictable universe? No problem. All you need is the mindset to support any irrational claim, and you'll believe it. Bit like fairy stories and folk tales.