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In every effect there is a cause. I can not see the wind but I know it's there, I breath it, I see the trees dances because of it.
The whole universe exists. Everything exists. The ultimate ground of existence is what I call GOD/god or whatever you might call it.
Call it datulakan, faith or no faith, it's there.
There are people that believe in science, especially in evolution. They BELIEVE that they come from a long line of cave men and apes etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by JacobF
Science does not touch the spirit. Science cannot form an equation of the spirit because it cannot explain what it is. Religion making us happy? Being happy is just a response from a stimuli, which in this case is God. Other than this basic idea, science doesnt explain religion or spirit all together.
Try and define faith. Easy right? But try to understand faith and try for yourself to have faith in something. Not easy. You may have hard time trying to have faith that you cant see, but when you open your heart and be WILLING to accept a God, then faith forms.
Everything in nature that is not human made, ie organic is divine and beautiful in everyway,and yes we are a dot in the universe, we have a since of direction and space, therefore as we may look very insignificant in the universe, we are all important in the universe regardless of size.
The theory of evolution comes out often in these debates and I think its being unfairly judged. Does it have flaws? Yes. However until science has a better theory on the development of life on this planet its the best answer based on empirical evidence we have.
If this theory were on trial today and you were the jury consider this: If God created all the organisms just as they were would you expect all the animals to remain the same as they were or change over time? Evidence such as new strains and mutations in genes suggests that every form of life is evolving. More evidence includes genetic make up mammals close to the human and a large extent of the genes match. At the forefront of modern medicine the theory of evolution is being applied to every recess of research from stem cells to mapping the DNA of life forms and recognizing mutations in genes which can cause diseases. And its working.
So in light of this evidence one can suppose two possible answers. That evolution occured previously and will continue to do so, or evolution occured after God created all life. To say evolution doesn't not occur is blatantly incorrect. If you wish to believe theory B thats okay however I believe it is more reasonable to assume the first considering if you extrapolate this theory back to the beginning you would have small handful of life forms evolving to more varieties.
This isn't an attact on faith however an appeal for the "God did it theory" is an appeal to ignorance because it is not a scientific theory, does not improve modern medicine and halts the well being of those who will one day need it.
You can have faith in whatever you want. Everyone is entitled to that. However science improves lives physically and of course you need to be physically well before you can appreciate anything right?
They don't just BELIEVE in evolution, they have some evidence to back it up. A belief is very subjective, such as "do you believe in god." To deny evolution, even though it is not a perfect theory (no theory is) is to deny real evidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by skasian
Plus, I've felt faith before. I used to go to church and I genuinely believed in god and the bible. But when I reached an age when I started to think, I realized god was made-up and the bible was just a bed-time story for grown-ups. But today I still feel faith. Not in god, but faith in friends and family, because they are close to me and are part of my life. They aren't imaginary. I had faith in my mom when she started her own business, faith in myself when I do theater. It's an irrational emotion drawn from insecurity, and while it made me feel better I would never build my existence, my identity around it. Let alone would I let faith haze my judgment enough that I follow an age-old scripture which was written as an authoritative tool more than anything.
Science can't explain what isn't there. So, you are correct in that science can't explain the spirit. The spirit is an idea and nothing more. And you don't even need science to explain religion. It was created as a psychological remedy for the natural insecurity that people felt, as well as being a great tool for spreading culture and in turn expanding empires. Just look at how well the Islamic empire spread after Mohammed's death.
As for your last paragraph, you just keep regurgitating that, somehow, everything in nature is divine. Yet science has explanations for the development of nature and, even though they are not perfected, they are better than the cop-out that "god did it all."
Your only main point is that I have to have faith in order to see things as divine. That I have to 'accept faith' in order to see things the way you do. But I've been through all that faith-in-god stuff in my life and I've learned from it that it's pretty much imaginary. I don't claim to know everything about the universe from this self-revelation, but I do know that freeing myself from the prison that is believing in god has helped me see things more clearly, see things for what they are, not 'divine.' As ohmy said, you're entitled to your faith but it's my belief that faith in god is not necessary for humanity.
i think you really made the point for me: science will not and cannot make claims about that which is unknowable (ie that which cant be explained, just experienced and felt), ie the spirit, the numinous, oneness, that which makes us marvel at the universe, whatever you choose to call it is fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by skasian
religion on the other hand doesnt just make claims, it professes a knowledge of the unknowable that is remarkably detailed considering its unknowability.
on a sidenote. speaking of the unknowable as a known strips it of its luster, takes the shine off the apple. infects our sense of awe and replaces it with a sense of loyalty to ancient writers
Hey. I just wanted to say thank you for writing this, it is an act of kindness. :) It is exactly what I believe, that God is the root of existence. Each of us was created by the divine, and it is our purpose of life to pursue God and realize our relationship with the supreme.Quote:
Originally Posted by datulakan
You may not think all of this, and I will leave it, because some people on here will try to make fun and make people hurt (not you, The Atheist - you are kind).
But I do believe that God is OM, the source of all this vegetable and material world. All comes from that divine source, and it is the perfection to make it a part of one's life. I see this OM as the sum of all dreams and love and the source of all enlightenment.
Why do I believe in God? Because I've had very numerous experiences of the divine, and they have matched descriptions of God as the supreme, as the divine Grace. For this reason I believe we are all spirit, and our root of existence is the supreme and divine grace, call you it Om, Hari, Christ, Buddha or any other.
By the way does datulakan mean anything, for it seems familiar.
Bible is like evidence to have belief in God. Textbooks with scientific theories are like evidence to have belief in evolution. Either way, you can believe in something if it seems "right" for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by JacobF
Good, you have great sense of faith towards your family and friends. Its not so hard right? Well its the same kind of faith and love that revolves around God. He is part of your family too, but just a higher being.
How would you know if religion was created just by humans' insecurities? Have you been back thousands of years yourself and discovered the reason why religion exists? Islamic empire was created when Mohammed converted from Christianity after he saw a vision of God telling him about a new religion. The reason why this religion was created was being of Mohammed's motivation to spread the news about God's intentions - Not because of human insecurities.
Science has explanation for development of nature? Nope. The big bang is a theory and it is not certain. Dont you know science is always 100% uncertain? Theres nothing in science that reveals why "e" or the nature number occurs in nature so much. The answer is simple. Because everything in nature has codings or blueprints God used when He created the world. The golden ratio appears almost everywhere in nature. Coincidence? Highly unlikely.
Let me say this one thing. I am not trying to convert you or convert your thoughts about faith but just sharing my views. My views and so does all the religious, everything about God and His creations is completely opposite from being imaginary, like we humans are not imaginary.
Religion is indeed the knowledge of the unknowable, the most uncomprehensive - God. However religion is also holds the knwoledge of morality, humanity, many aspects that we humans should follow everyday in our lives in earth.Quote:
Originally Posted by billyjack
"Knowledge of the unknowable"? Isn't that a contradiction in terms? How can one know something that is impossible to know?
It's true that all religions have their own "moral codes", so to speak, but I'm one of those people who believe you don't need religion or a fear of God in order to be a moral person. I try to do good and be good without expecting a reward in the afterlife. For me, it's a matter of empathising with my fellow man.
Knowledge of the unknowable. Let me elaborate. Unknowable is God, because God is a being that is infinite of all righteous, goodness, light and hope, He is just beyond our comprehension. Overall, we cant understand God, therefore unknowable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pewnut
Knowledge of God is very limited however by His Words, we are able to know His intentions, and His Will.
Knowledge of the unknowable is quite misleading I admit, however it is just about gaining knowledge of God's will and following them.
The bible is not evidence. It is not contemporary to the period in which it was writing about, nor does it have any proven events within it. The big bang for instance is closer to fact than the bible because we actually have research to back up that it may have happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by skasian
I don't think I need to form an argument for this. You're just regurgitating the same thing as you have in your previous posts and I've countered it numerous times.Quote:
Originally Posted by skasian
I think this is the part in the argument where I have to simply say 'open your eyes.' Fear has been and always will be the main motive for humanity's actions. Religion is a textbook example of creating something out of fear.Quote:
Originally Posted by skasian
Have you been back thousands of years to see Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection? Have you been back thousands of years to see Moses part the red sea?
And also, as a little side note, why must the burden of proof lay on me? If someone claimed that UFOs existed, you'd think the person making that claim would have to prove it, right? Then why must it be atheists having to disprove god rather than theists proving it? And by proving it, I don't mean pointing to the bible, because that is just words. Anyone could have written the bible.
Uh, but science DOES have solid explanations pertaining to the development of nature. I never said science is 100% certain (in fact, I'm pretty sure I previously said it wasn't) but science has more merit explaining how natural occurrences happen than religion does. Empirical merit: something that the bible doesn't have.Quote:
Originally Posted by skasian
Science hasn't discovered something yet... so it must be god, right? If this was 1000 years ago, you would be saying that the sun revolves around the earth, and god put us in the center of the cosmos. But, today we know that is incorrect with scientific research. Coincidence? Highly unlikely.Quote:
Originally Posted by skasian
We humans are not imaginary because we have senses. We are physical entities. God, however, does not fit into any of those categories.Quote:
Originally Posted by skasian
so you know the unknowable via the bible. white noiseQuote:
Originally Posted by skasian
Hmm... I'm not swayed by this logic. If you know ("by His words") that God is infinitely righteous, good, etc. and you know His intentions and His will, then you have knowledge of some of His qualities. Meaning, He is not "unknowable", just "knowable to a certain limited extent".Quote:
Originally Posted by skasian
There are a number of historical events that were prophetically predicted by the Bible. The life of Jesus Christ - who was a real historical figure - fulfills at least 8 prophecies made in the Old Testament (the last book of which dates about 400 years before his birth) - including such impossible to manipulate things as birthplace (Bethlehem - see Micah 5:2) and that Jesus' hands and feet would be pierced (see Psalms 22:16). There are plenty of others in the Books of Ezekiel and Daniel. Every year, archeological evidence surfaces that verifies locations and people mentioned in the Bible.Quote:
Originally Posted by JacobF
I'm very familiar with this feeling. I feel your pain.Quote:
Originally Posted by JacobF
This is the part that is tiresome to keep reading. Our eyes ARE open - you make the assumption that you're the one who sees clearly. The Bible makes it clear that the condition of those who don't know God is one of blindness. Fear is - IMO - what actually drives people to deny the existence of God - because if He is real - then the lives we're living will get us into A LOT of trouble. It's easier to continue living life in whatever way we please once we pretend that there is no real cosmic justice out there in the form of an omniscient and holy God.Quote:
Originally Posted by JacobF
Besides, things created out of fear do not change people's lives; the Bible and Christianity have changed many, many people's lives for the better. Fear hasn't that power - it can only destroy - not recreate.
Jesus' crucifixion is an actual historical event confirmed by non-Christian sources. It is ironic that you use the very argument that works against abiogenesis - there's no real way to prove where life came from because you can't "go back" and see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by JacobF
Believers cannot "prove" God exists anymore than evolutionists can prove that life came from nothing. The logical fallacy that atheists make is in claiming that God doesn't exist: to make that claim (that something doesn't exist) presumes an exhaustive knowledge of all that exists. That is plainly impossible. How can atheists claim such a thing with a straight face? And we're the ones who need to "open our eyes"?Quote:
Originally Posted by JacobF
1. Religion does not exist to explain the scientific origins of anything. It provides a pathway to a relationship with God.Quote:
Originally Posted by JacobF
2. Some science is "hard" (like mathematics) - there is no interpretation involved; some science, however, is "soft" in that it requires the "evidence" to be interpreted. Since evidence can be interpreted in more than one way, not all "evidence" in support of evolution is undeniably irrefutable. Sorry.
Science can't discover God - all it can do is keep uncovering evidence of His handiwork and then come up with absurd explanations as to how it developed all by itself through random chance and lots o' time.Quote:
Originally Posted by JacobF
I completely disagree with this statement. Not everyone who denies the existence of God leads a "sinful" life, just as not everyone who believes in the existence of God leads an "exemplary" life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Redzeppelin
Personally, I neither deny nor confirm the existence of God but like I said before:
I'd rather do good and be good by my own will, rather than be compelled to do so.Quote:
I'm one of those people who believes you don't need religion or a fear of God in order to be a moral person. I try to do good and be good without expecting a reward in the afterlife. For me, it's a matter of empathising with my fellow man.
I completely understand why people in biblical times would have found comfort in organised religion because (to a certain extent) it prevented chaos in society. However, civilisation has evolved to a point in time where we have enforceable laws to prevent people from running amock or at least hold them accountable for their actions.
On a more personal note, I really hope that God does exist because there are many people who suffer a great deal in this world and they should be able to find peace, at least in the afterlife.