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Yes I did. You would make a wonderful teacher Janine. :) I should read "The White Peacock" but but the list of unread books is long. I have to finish Don Quixote, then I promised Quasimodo I would try to get a reading group together for Virgil's The Aeneid, and then I really want to read some more of my favorite living author Cormac Macarthy. Ever see the movie "All The Pretty horses"? He wrote the book. And of course there is the forum book club here too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Hehehe Janine, indeed you did a lot of homework for this thread :nod:
I want to thank you too, for those pages you scanned for us :)
I was wondering who people think is most at fault for Paul's failed relationships. The first time I read this book I was more interested in just experiencing the tragedies in Paul's life without analyzing the problems, but this time I feel a need to be more critical. Is his mother to blame for controlling Paul? Or, is Paul himself to weak and sensitive to his mother's influence? Is Miriam stifling Paul, or is Paul being unfair to Miriam? I know that these questions can't be solved simply--that the answer is one or the other. Most likely, fault is allotted to both in some degree. What are the degrees, though? In what ways do the characters fail each other?
Oh, and:
That's a good idea. If you give me four weeks or so I could join in, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Perhaps all of the above. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
Oh great. We were talking about around Christmas time. I hope you can join us. :) Anyone else?Quote:
That's a good idea. If you give me four weeks or so I could join in, too.
Virgil, I loved that film! First off, I love Matt Damon. He is a fine actor. In fact, that film is back in my library and I think I will take it out tonight and watch it - well, if I can find time, that is. Is the book really great? Of course, my reading list is way too long presently, to add it on, but just curious. I never heard of that author at all. Is he still alive?Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Wow, you sound so busy - me too! Thanks, I wonder if I missed my calling not being a teacher. I don't know though - I think if I had taken that path I would have burnt out quickly. I can't keep this pace up actually and creative projects are now calling to me. I am sort of one of those people who are a 'jack of all trades and a master of none', but hey, 'variety is the spice of life.' Gee, I am all full of 'truisms' today - real 'pearls of wisdom' -;) :lol:
I just think that reading "The White Peacock" would interest you in your study of L and how he began to think in his early years. There are elements there of his later books. Even though not fully formed the seeds of his ideas are in that novel. I found that part fascinating and it is not a long book. I should lend it to you sometime, send it parcel post when you are ready...maybe the summer...or a slow period.
manolia, thank you for thanking me. You are very welcome. The pleasure was mine - I like sharing this information with you. I thought it really filled in the spaces and made things clearer - sort of clarified certain things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
Quark, Wow, complicated questions here. I don't know if one can really ever answer them concisely or 'finally', 'definitively'. I think it is all in the way you view it. I agree with Virgil, 'all of the above'. This will all be eternal unsolved questions, most likely, for me to ponder till eternity. Lawrence was not easy to figure out and he writes about real people and life and of life and struggles - is that easy to figure out? Relationships are so two, three and multiply complicated - who knows for sure? Paul certainly was overly and extremely sensitive and confused about relationships, sex and a mirade of other vital topics. I don't think anyone is to blame. I don't place blame on anyone - Miriam, the mother, the father, or Paul. They all acted in a human fashion with faults and weaknesses, as well as strengths. One cannot say or calculate this in degrees. They all fail in certain ways, but that is human, too, isn't it?
Oh yes he's still alive. He just came out with a new novel called The Road which I bought and have been dying to read. Here a little thing about him: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cormac_McCarthy. OK I'll try to find time for The White Peacock.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Virgil, just got back from the library and I got "All the Pretty Horses" - the film. Going to watch it now...it has been awhile and only saw it once so far. Looking forward to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
WP can wait. Glad you like this author and just got his newest book; hope you can read it soon. The horses film is set in Mexico, right? I think it was better than PS.;)
I can't answer your PM - too many in there and I can't clear out now. Later. J
Hi everyone! I have been reading the first couple chapters in Part 2; I know I am slow this time around, sorry. Anyway, I find the symbolism in the seeking out of the rosebush really interesting. I was wondering if anyone would like to expound on these ideas. One is that Mirriam is so religious/myscially minded and seems to worship the 'sharing' experience with Paul as though it were a religious one. I found the description of the white roses in the night truly stunning and meaningful. I have some ideas on it myself, but wanted to see if anyone else could write about what they thought first? There was a contrast in the roses - opened and closed ones - that seemed to symbolise Paul and Miriam and their different ways of viewing sex and relationships. What does everyone think of the scene?
Going out tonight so will be back later to check the L threads and others.
I agree with you, Janine. The white roses may stand for the "whiteness" of virginity, opposed to the "darkness" of the night. For the deeply religious Miriam, her relationship with Paul may seem like a gift given from God, she stands for spirituality, and perhaps, that is why she views everything around this affair as "religious-related". I think that many of the points that have already been mentioned by all of us can be connected to that part of the novel.
The roses that "stand in opposition"-closed and opened-symbolise for me what you've already mentioned. It may be the "open'', "free" attitude of Paul towards sexuality, while the closed ones may stand for Miriam's restraint approach towards the issue. Also, I would dare to suggest that the closed roses can have a direct sexual connotation, standing as a metaphor for Miriam's virginity.
Here's a site that describes the symbolism of roses in literature from the middle ages: http://www.discourses.ca/v5n1a1.html.
Not sure about the color scheme in Lawrence. Amelia might be right about virginity. I beleive red rose was symbol for Virgin Mary. And Miriam does have a name that is an offshoot of Mary.
My first thoughts on the Rose was that it represents an ideal, a perfection. Dante has Paradisio organized in the form of a Rose structure, with I think God in the center. I should double check that.
Thanks Janine for posting these. They are really interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
As for the commentary you have posted by Michael Black, I think I agree with most of it. But am I the only one here who feels that Lawrence has been from nowhere biased when it comes to Morels' relationship? Actually, he has focused upon the mother and that's why we get to read about her feelings more in the book rather than Mr. Morel. He has on a very few places narrated the feelings of Mr. Morel (of course this is quite obvious as the central figure is Paul and Paul is closed to his mother) but if he had, we might have had been able to see the other side of the story more clearly and we might have had been able to sympathize with the poor miner. I hope I just don't seem to be babbling.
************************************************Quote:
Originally Posted by amalia1985
Good posts, Everyone!
I like you comments on the flowers, amalia.
Yes, Virgil that is true about Mary Magdaline being represented by the red rose (at least I think it has to be 'red', but not sure about that fact, actually. Thanks for the rest of that research on the significance of roses.
At anyrate, I achieved my goal last night and got hold of your attention and inspired your rethinking on this aspect of the story. Seems things needed to be livenend up a bit. Sneaky way to get all of you back here - ha!;) I believe I stimulated your thinking again....Good! I thought you all ran away and left me alone:( .
I know we discussed some of the' flower' significance before, but I thought in particular, these references were of interest.
Although I was 'backing up the wagon' a bit, since I just got to these passages in my reading in the book. Therefore, I felt they could be further explored and expounded upon.
Here is the actual passage in the book when Miriam takes Paul to the woods to find her rose-bush. I will underline key word or significant statements.
This part especially struck me with it's significance and references to the differences in the two individuals.Quote:
She wanted to show him a certain wild-rose bush she
had discovered. She knew it was wonderful. And yet,
till he had seen it, she felt it had not come into her soul.
Only he could make it her own, immortal. She was dissatisfied.
Dew was already on the paths. In the old oak-wood a mist
was rising, and he hesitated, wondering whether one whiteness
were a strand of fog or only campion-flowers pallid in a cloud.
By the time they came to the pine-trees Miriam was getting very
eager and very tense. Her bush might be gone. She might not be
able to find it; and she wanted it so much. Almost passionately
she wanted to be with him when be stood before the flowers.
They were going to have a communion together--something that
thrilled her, something holy. He was walking beside her in silence.
They were very near to each other. She trembled, and he listened,
vaguely anxious.
Coming to the edge of the wood, they saw the sky in front,
like mother-of-pearl, and the earth growing dark. Somewhere on the
outermost branches of the pine-wood the honeysuckle was streaming scent.
"Where?" he asked.
"Down the middle path," she murmured, quivering.
When they turned the corner of the path she stood still.
In the wide walk between the pines, gazing rather frightened,
she could distinguish nothing for some moments; the greying light
robbed things of their colour. Then she saw her bush.
"Ah!" she cried, hastening forward.
It was very still. The tree was tall and straggling.
It had thrown its briers over a hawthorn-bush, and its long
streamers trailed thick, right down to the grass, splashing the
darkness everywhere with great spilt stars, pure white.
In bosses of ivory and in large splashed stars the roses gleamed on the
darkness of foliage and stems and grass. Paul and Miriam stood
close together, silent, and watched. Point after point the steady
roses shone out to them, seeming to kindle something in their souls.
The dusk came like smoke around, and still did not put out the roses.
Paul looked into Miriam's eyes. She was pale and expectant
with wonder, her lips were parted, and her dark eyes lay open to him.
His look seemed to travel down into her. Her soul quivered.
It was the communion she wanted. He turned aside, as if pained.
He turned to the bush.
"They seem as if they walk like butterflies, and shake themselves,"
he said.
She looked at her roses. They were white, some incurved and holy,
others expanded in an ecstasy. The tree was dark as a shadow.
She lifted her hand impulsively to the flowers; she went forward
and touched them in worship.[/Quote]
That is an amazing passage to me and so brilliantly stated. The imagery is so wonderful and so meaningful. If you notice also it says 'her roses.' Does this indicate that in a way she is sharing her own purity and virginity with Paul at this moment? Not only does she worship the flowers, but Paul himself?.. or at least her image of him?
Wow, looking a little further ahead this does seem to be what is indicated - her virgin scent, not just the flowers.Quote:
"Let us go," he said.
There was a cool scent of ivory roses--a white, virgin scent.
Something made him feel anxious and imprisoned. The two walked
in silence.
Quote:
"Till Sunday," he said quietly, and left her; and she walked
home slowly, feeling her soul satisfied with the holiness of the night.
************************************************** ****
I think this earlier passage is very 'revealing' to us as of how Paul sees/views Miriam.
****************************Quote:
All the life of Miriam's body was in her eyes, which were usually
dark as a dark church, but could flame with light like a conflagration.
Her face scarcely ever altered from its look of brooding.
She might have been one of the women who went with Mary when Jesus
was dead. Her body was not flexible and living. She walked
with a swing, rather heavily, her head bowed forward, pondering.
She was not clumsy, and yet none of her movements seemed quite
THE movement. Often, when wiping the dishes, she would stand
in bewilderment and chagrin because she had pulled in two halves
a cup or a tumbler. It was as if, in her fear and self-mistrust,
she put too much strength into the effort. There was no looseness
or abandon about her. Everything was gripped stiff with intensity,
and her effort, overcharged, closed in on itself.
Some other flower/nature references with definite significance and symbolism.
Sun has such significance for Lawrence throughout his novels and writings. I feel this is quite significant especially with the idea of the petals going flat back with the sunshine - open to the sun. Interesting statement and observation of L'sQuote:
Again, going down the hedgeside with the girl, he noticed
the celandines, scalloped splashes of gold, on the side of the ditch.
"I like them," he said, "when their petals go flat back with
the sunshine. They seemed to be pressing themselves at the sun."
***************************
Then, these two sentences sum up how they first 'began' to love each other.
I know that this idea was mentioned earlier by someone, but I brought it up again anyway.Quote:
So it was in this atmosphere of subtle intimacy, this meeting
in their common feeling for something in Nature, that their love started.
**************************
I found this passage extremely interesting/curious (perhaps being an artist myself). What do you think of Paul's comment when he says "the shimmeriness is the real living. The shape is dead crust. The shimmer is inside really" ?
Could this also refer back to the idea of 'death' and to his brother, who when brought home for burial, was only 'a shape' that 'is dead crust'. The 'shimmer' of the soul had gone from him, as will happen also with the dead body of Paul's beloved mother.
Quote:
"It's because--it's because there is scarcely any shadow in it;
it's more shimmery, as if I'd painted the shimmering protoplasm
in the leaves and everywhere, and not the stiffness of the shape.
That seems dead to me. Only this shimmeriness is the real living.
The shape is a dead crust. The shimmer is inside really."
Pensive, Glad you like the poems and hope all of this new post of mine helps you, too. I agree with your assessment of Michael Black's commentary, basically. Yes, the emphasis here is more on Paul and his mother so there is much more on their characters, but on second reading I am surprised at how many small references I have noticed now having to do with the father such as one I read last night when he was out cutting wood and a young girl came by selling hot-cross buns and he endearingly called her 'darling', then defended her against some boy's comments. I guess in his own way he was kind of charming and chivalous at times and could show a gentler side to his nature. I think I am mostly just looking to be fairer to his image in this second reading, knowing L said, himself he was too brutal to this character fashioned after his father. He was sorry for the offense because it did ultimately wound his father and left scares. Anyway, glad you found the commentary interesting and helpful. His insight has been a help to me and pointed things out that I might not have noticed otherwise.
Janine, Mary Magdalene is definately symbolised by a rose (doesn't have to be a red one). I'll read your last post later on ;) . The rose (like the apple) in many instances symbolises also the woman's womb (don't know if this symbolism applies here though).
Yes, I know they brought up the symbolism in the DaVinci code quite a bit. I did not think it had to be red necessarily.Quote:
Originally Posted by manolia
Wow, manolia - you sure got over here fast or didn't you read my post in movies yet? If not, we must have ESP. I have missed seeing you here and our nice and stimulating conversations.
Interesting about the apple, too. I bet that symbol crops up frequently in L's work. Wasn't it mentioned in WIL? Come to think of it, Miriam, in this chapter I just read, offered Paul an apple when they were trying to study - do you remember that scene? This thought adds more interest to that moment, since he seemed annoyed at her at first being distracted. Perhaps the significance comes when he finally bit into her apple.