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I (finally) read The Catcher in the Rye yesterday; I liked it very much but it left me with mixed feelings and thoughts. There is no doubt that, in Holden, Salinger has created a memorable character but do you like him? Are we supposed to like him? I could not help thinking that Holden is a bundle of contradictions. Throughout the novel, he criticise others for being 'phoney' but isn't he just like anyone else? His simple refusal to 'grow up' and take responsibility for his own actions are not the real issues?
As for the imagery in the book...
Does the 'red hat' stand for his desire to be different?
He often looks out of the window... Is that a symbol that he is not willing to take part in 'real life' but rather be an outsider, a spectator?
I love the image of 'catcher in the rye'... beautiful. However, Phoebe says that the actual poem is “If a body meet a body, coming through the rye.” What is the significance of this?
There are so many things I would like to talk about this book if there is someone who is not fed up already and still willing! :D
*edit*
I was reminded of On the Road while reading this book although I am not sure why.
Of course he's a bundle of contradictions; he's human.
Out of every novel I have read, J.D. Salinger's The Catcher In The Rye I consider one of the books that got me so interested in literature.
As you both mentioned, Scher and fayefaye (welcome back, by the way ;)), Holden Caulfield, I think, Salinger intended on sounding confusing and self-contradicting. I have seen this novel very often compared to William Golding's The Lord Of The Flies, since both involve a young adolescent (or adolescents) growing, gaining independence, making choices, and forming a concept of self-reliance. Of course, Holden attempts turning back again many times to his family (especially Phoebe, his younger sister), but with no help.
I think I will have to review the book again for this question. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Scheherazade
I noticed this also, while reading the book, and agree with your idea, Scher. I feel that Holden does desire to "take part in 'real life,' " but feels the need to gain influence from others, relying on his surroundings. Young children (younger than Holden) learn very well common tasks of living by observing and imitating others around them, often their parents or caretakers; somehow, in Holden's development, he frequently tries to gain influence, feeling, in a way, fearful of too much independence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scheherazade
I absolutely loved the character, Phoebe; her wit and almost sage-like intelligence for someone her age amazed me, for a fictional character. To me, Holden wanted to seem a kind of savior for other lost adolescents, wanting no one else to fall into that apparent "phoney" oblivion he labeled so often, so that when people "fell" from that comfort in childhood that seems to disappear with the confusing adolescence, he wanted to "catch" them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scheherazade
I have a cousin just like Phoebe. I love her to bits :) (and i'm trying to mould her in my image, MWAHAHAHA)
hmm.. I'm probably quite weak on the analysis of catcher... I read it a couple of years ago. For me, I tend to look out of windows a lot when my mind starts to wander and I reflect ont he world. Maybe holden does the same thing? (Whilst simultaneously trying to escape reality, if that makes sense?)
Thanks for the insight!Quote:
Originally Posted by fayefaye
This is an interesting point... Though I wouldn't get carried away with this comparison as the children (yes, they are children; no more) in TLOTF are forced into isolation from the adult world, 'grow up', take responsibilities. Holden, on the other hand, tries to isolate himself from the adult world willingly, and resists the necessity of 'growing up' and taking responsibilities although he is old enough to do these. Interestingly, he does not mind being 'grown up' when it comes to drinking or getting Sunny into his room. He often claims he is older than he is throughout the book when it suits him.Quote:
I have seen this novel very often compared to William Golding's The Lord Of The Flies, since both involve a young adolescent (or adolescents) growing,
I agree with your intrepretation of the title, Mono. However, my question was that Holden remembers the poem as 'a body catches in the rye'. Later on Phoebe reminds him that the actual poem is: “If a body meet a body, coming through the rye.” It isn't 'catch' but 'meet'; what is the significance of misquote?Quote:
To me, Holden wanted to seem a kind of savior for other lost adolescents, wanting no one else to fall into that apparent "phoney" oblivion he labeled so often, so that when people "fell" from that comfort in childhood that seems to disappear with the confusing adolescence, he wanted to "catch" them.
Here is the actual poem:
Coming Through The Rye
by Robert Burns
Coming thro' the rye, poor body,
Coming thro' the rye,
She draiglet a' her petticoatie
Coming thro' the rye.
O, Jenny's a' wat, poor body;
Jenny's seldom dry;
She draiglet a' her petticoatie
Coming thro' the rye.
Gin a body meet a body
Coming thro' the rye,
Gin a body kiss a body -
Need a body cry?
Gin a body meet a body
Coming thro' the glen,
Gin a body kiss a body -
Need the warld ken?
It is interesting that even though Holden associates this with children and his desire to stop them from falling into the adult world, the actual poem has a sexual connotation.
I read Cather in the rye, and totally loved it! All thou I read it for school, I never went as deep in my analyze as u do... I just loved both Holden and Phoebe. They were so symphatetic. Holden might have been 'phoney', but that was what was so lovely about him. *just must comment*
Like faith, having read it in high school, I suppose I never noticed the misquote. And, though I knew Salinger based the quote on a poem, I have never read the whole poem; thanks for posting it, Scher. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Scheherazade
I agree with you, Scher, that the poem does seem to have a slight sexual connotation, though Robert Burns does not seem like the easiest poet to read. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Scheherazade
In the comparison of the misquote from "catch" to "meet," perhaps Phoebe more insists Holden that he cannot save his fellow "fallen" adolescents, but must aide them more passively, as cliché as it sounds. This might also point out that Holden may desire to remain stagnant in this stage to adulthood to help others, maybe out of fear for what lies beyond the "rye."
New quizes on JD Salinger and Catcher have been added to the Forum:
http://www.online-literature.com/for....php?quizid=30
http://www.online-literature.com/for....php?quizid=28
Catcher in the rye is one of the few books that I keep reading over and over without getting bored and everytime I read it, I learn soemthing new. Holden is a very interesting character yet, he keeps contradicting himself. He says that everyone around him is phony-yet, he is so much like them that if he didn't some really nice things sometimes, you would think that he is one of 'them'
Holden is absolutely terrified of growing up, hence his apparent fear of being sexually attracted to women. This said, the significance is the original poem by Robert Burns is actually about sex. It's basically Salinger being ironic and showing Holden to be a child.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scheherazade
Holden's contradiction are the whole points of the character. Throughout the novel he points out things he doesn't like about people but that he also does. I wouldn't call him a hypocrite because I believe he realizes this, he's just growing up and having the same difficulties as everyone. I love the part where he pretends he has a bullet in his guts, then again there are so many other similar parts when he fools around (the talk about the suitcases...). I also think his admiration for Phoebe, Allie and D.B. his touching
What do you think about his teacher-friend, Mr Antolini? I don't know weather to like him or not, what his intentions were...etc
I loved Mr. Antolini; he seemed a teacher who went far above and beyond his expectations as more of a mentor than a formal teacher. Holden obviously thinks highly of him, seeing him as a "non-phoney" and noncomformist; but Mr. Antolini offers Holden a new perspective for committing to school, and doing well - not to impress others, or "get a slice of the American pie," so to speak, but merely for himself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark F.
That some readers interpret Mr. Antolini's manner as sexual with his gestures, I cannot agree with; like Holden, Antolini has his own faults (like alcoholism), and I saw his physical gestures more as almost father-like, exaggerated by a common teenager's fear of homosexuality.
I also saw the gest as a fatherly one, maybe at the time the novel was written their was antagonism towards homosexuality. The other teacher he visits at the beginning (the elderly one) is also a fatherly figure. I see what you mean about Mr Antolini as a teacher. I feel his intentions are good but can't help identifying to Holden's fears.
I was thinking about this and I wondered whether Salinger is being more than ironic here; maybe expressing a quite pessimistic view? Something Holden comes up with to 'save' children actually has sexual connotations. Sex is one of the sure signs of growing up; somewhat a loss of innocence. By this twist, I thought, Salinger might be trying to show that there is no escape (for Holden) or way to 'save' (children).Quote:
Originally Posted by queenrah
With all this focus on growing up, Holden is the only person who is really childish in the book. Phoebe talks and acts much more maturely than Holden does; all the other teens seem very much interested in sex while Holden just feigns an interest in it (although he thinks a lot about it).
I, like you Mark, am not sure how I feel about this character. I am not sure what Antolini's intentions were when he stroked Holden's hair but I don't think he was overstepping some boundries. I think there are some suggestions that he might be gay (if you would like to interpret them that way): he is not a conservative or conventional type; he is married to an older, well-off woman... However, I think the whole incident is about Holden and Antolini's sexuality is kind of irrelevant: he is unsure about his sexuality (surprise, surprise) like he is unsure about anything else about himself. Is Holden worried that he might be gay (because his relationships with the girls are not 'successes' as we see in the book) so gets very upset by Antolini's gesture?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark F.
I thought Holden's reaction to Antolini's gesture was typical of him: even though he has been one person he could really talk to and gave him sound advice he could relate to, Holden did not hesitate to get away from him when he suspects that Antolini might have a flaw.