D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

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05-28-2008, 11:54 PM
Virgil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janine

Those are wonderful observations. A page or more back, I tried to explain the flower ideal and the blood consicousness connected to this passage, but I could not get it straight in my own mind, nor express it clearly, as you do here. This is marvelous! I totally agree with what you have written. It does all make complete sense, from the flower significance and the blood references and the lose of conscious self - only using the words: he, she, woman, man being used. I too thought these passages entirely beautiful and filled with the deepest sense of passion; and such brillant perceptive writing on Lawrence's part. Well, Virgil, you expressed it all so perfectly here; much better than I could attempt ever to do.

Oh did you make a similar point? I must have passed over it. I think we went a little long with this story and we (or at least I did) lost focus.

Quote:

It is funny, that is just how I read Lawrence, in a flow, as when I read poetry. I didn't always do so, but as I have read him more and more, I now know his rhythms and can feel the beat and the rhyme, instinctively. It is like reading Shakespeare, for me. I love the way you actually took this appart and explained the poetry and the perfect timing. Do you think Lawrence was aware he was doing this, as he wrote; or do you think it sprung out of that 'deep well of blood' he spoke of; do you think it came naturally to him, instinctively? To me, it seems so and not contrived in one word or line.

Good question. I'm not sure. I've always said he was a natural, so you would think it just flowed out of him. But still one is conscious and crafts what flows out of you. Probably a little of both Janine.

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It totally amazes me, that he was only 25 when he wrote this; it is a sophisticated work with much complexity to the entire story structure/symbolism/thematic elements. I don't know when it was published, or how many rewrites it had. I need to look that up, in the timeline
book.

Actually I think this was never published in his lifetime. It's got a published date of 1934, which is four years after he died. You might want to check the Calandar of His Days book.

Virgil, thanks for taking the time to post this and glad I peeked back in here, to find this great post. Great post!
Oh my pleasure. Reading passages like this is what makes literature a passion for me. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quark

I would agree with that, but that sentence about all her wanting is the kiss sticks in my mind. It doesn't seem to fit. In Women in Love Birkin draws a distinction between the Blood consciousness you're talking about and the pornographic ideal. Coutts and Winifred appear like they're playing out the pornographic ideal more than expressing their natural Blood consciousness. At least, the line about the kiss does--and all the stuff about Winifred's nervousness. Although, you are right about the imagery. The flower is a particularly important symbol, and we see it connected with Winifred. It's difficult to say what's going on in the last passage exactly.

Actually you may be right Quark. This was an "unnatural" passion. I don't know if pornographic is the right term, but Wini's manipulation is a sort of mental consciousness. Lawrence would refer to this as "sex in the head." ;)
05-29-2008, 12:07 AM
Dark Muse

It is almost impossible not to have controvery when I am in the room I fear ;) I do try to be good, but fail misserably
05-29-2008, 12:10 AM
Virgil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Muse

It is almost impossible not to have controvery when I am in the room I fear ;) I do try to be good, but fail misserably

Dark Muse, are you Mad, Bad, and Dangerous to Know too? :lol:

By the way, for those that don't know, that phrase is how the poet Byron was described by someone in his lifetime. I've been using it since I get in trouble here so often. ;)
05-29-2008, 12:12 AM
Dark Muse

LOL, yes I fear that I am, we will just have to stick together, even if we don't always agree either
05-29-2008, 12:41 AM
Virgil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antiquarian

I think we all just have to remember we're discussing a story and fictional characters, not each other and not take the world of fiction too seriously. This should be fun and enlightening for us. We can learn about literature from our disagreements, too. I think it would be boring if we all just said, "Yes, yes, I agree."

Quite right Anti. Perhaps if we can limit a disagreement to a post each and not carry on for pages. I have to admit it got wearisome going over the same points over and over.
05-29-2008, 02:38 AM
Janine

Quote:

Originally Posted by Virgil

Quite right Anti. Perhaps if we can limit a disagreement to a post each and not carry on for pages. I have to admit it got wearisome going over the same points over and over.

Virgil, you did not repeat what I had said and if you did on some points, you said it so much clearer and made it more understandable. I still do see the passage as you saw it, even though any blood consciousness was short lived for Coutts and Winifred, as well. Still that passage was masterly written and it did contain a great deal of passionate intensity. Lawrence abhored the idea of 'pornography'; therefore Quark, I think he would be appalled by that idea; I don't think that is what he is saying here, we can't go that far. I think that Coutts indeed does want this 'blood consiciousness' with a woman, but he just has not found the right woman to meet him on this level and become the consumation of this ideal.

Exactly my point, Virgil; it gets wearisome when it goes on, post after post and even several pages; then it becomes more like quibbling and not mere opinion. I seriously get a headache and it no longer becomes enjoyable to me; instead it wears me out. I personally don't have the time to waste on these contraversies. Antiquarian, of course that does not mean we can't disagree on things relating directly to the story and the text; that is different - that is critical analysis. When this constant friction occurs and becomes excessive it tends to make me, not even want to come back here and post or continue; I have to be honest about that. I would hate to abandon this thread; I have put a lot of time into it. I have been here from the beginning; I didn't miss one story. I don't recall the first 5 or so stories being like this. I don't recall ever mentioning liking or disliking a character. We simply went ahead and discussed them in connection with the text.

The next story hopefully, won't be contraversial (or I am hoping as much) if we all don't give opinions right away about the characters, or pass moral judgements on them; there are basically 3 characters, with one minor character. The story is more simplistic, or so I believe, a little more straight-forward without containing the degree of complexity we found in this story. "Witch a la Mode" had so many intricacies in the text: references to L's own biography, symbolism, themes, complex interactions between characters, etc.

I just hope, after this great story, no one will be disappointed in the next one. 'Witch' was was a hard act to follow. I picked an easier one next, so we could get a bit of a break, lighten up a little; it might be a little quieter in tone. Of course none of L's stories are truly without some complexity, right?
05-29-2008, 02:44 AM
Dark Muse

Quote:

I don't recall ever mentioning liking or disliking a character. We simply went ahead and discussed them in connection with the text.

I belive I am the one who started that
05-29-2008, 04:54 PM
Quark

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janine

The next story hopefully, won't be contraversial (or I am hoping as much) if we all don't give opinions right away about the characters, or pass moral judgements on them; there are basically 3 characters, with one minor character. The story is more simplistic, or so I believe, a little more straight-forward without containing the degree of complexity we found in this story. "Witch a la Mode" had so many intricacies in the text: references to L's own biography, symbolism, themes, complex interactions between characters, etc.

When do you plan on starting the next one? There's no hurry obviously. I'm just curious.
05-29-2008, 05:45 PM
Janine

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quark

When do you plan on starting the next one? There's no hurry obviously. I'm just curious.

Quark, thanks. I am bit stressed out right now, and then tomorrow night I am going up to see my new granddaughter, so that is all I can think of now. I can't wait. I have only seen her three times so far, and those were short visits.

If all could be a little patient; I said I will post the name of the story on Monday and some information about it and a photo. Hey, everybody, you restless ones, go outside and take a nice spring stroll. We all could use a little fresh air, don't you think? Enjoy the nice weather and spring! :)
05-29-2008, 05:57 PM
Dark Muse

It is a tad on the warm side for my taste
05-29-2008, 05:59 PM
Janine

wear something light and breathe some fresh air....hear some birds singing...or sit by a nice cool lake...can be very uplifting...
05-29-2008, 11:24 PM
Janine

Hi Everybody, for between stories, I thought I would post some photos. I believe these to be of interest.

The first photo is of a painting by Maurice Greiffenhagen, that Lawrence felt particularly attracted to and admired greatly; this he copied often, and gave a few of the copies away to lady friends. Michael Black drew reference to this fact, when commenting on the passionate scene in this last story. Oddly enough, I just noticed the red poppies which became such a source of conjecture and discussion. I think now I know the significance of those flowers, at least to Lawrence, and why he linked them to this story.

Idyll by Maurice Greiffenhagen:
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...ffenhagen1.jpg

Last three photos are of piano candleholders. (I promised these awhile back for Quark's benefit). They look very much like regular wall sconces, I know. They were listed online, specifically as 'piano candleholders.' These attach to both ends of the piano and usually do come in pairs.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...dleholders.jpg

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...e/candle01.jpg

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...e/candle02.jpg

If I find any more photos of interest, related to this last story, I will add to this post.
05-30-2008, 12:05 AM
Virgil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janine

Hi Everybody, for between stories, I thought I would post some photos. I believe these to be of interest.

The first photo is of a painting by Maurice Greiffenhagen, that Lawrence felt particularly attracted to and admired greatly; this he copied often, and gave a few of the copies away to lady friends. Michael Black drew reference to this fact, when commenting on the passionate scene in this last story. Oddly enough, I just noticed the red poppies which became such a source of conjecture and discussion. I think now I know the significance of those flowers, at least to Lawrence, and why he linked them to this story.

Idyll by Maurice Greiffenhagen:
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...ffenhagen1.jpg

Ooh, that is relavant to this story. When was this painted Janine? I can see how Lawrence would be atrracted to it. I've never heard of Greiffenhagen.
05-30-2008, 01:38 AM
Janine

Virgil, he was a youth when he first discovered it. Remember in "The Shades of Spring", when Syson mentions giving his old girlfriend a painting. I believe a copy of this, is what it is referring to. This painting is mentioned often, in commentary, and in the letters of Lawrence, himself. I will have to look up one of those letters - he directly makes mention of this painting and his copying it. This painting is on the cover of my addition of "The White Peacock", paperback edition. It does fit that book very well, since the picture is very pastoral looking.

You can find this painting online and all about Greiffenhagen or it may be spelled Grieffenhagen online and in Wikipedia. It mentions Lawrence in the Wiki article I believe. You can find L's copy online too but not sure where it is now. I will look for it for you.

Interesting about the poppies, isn't it?

NOTE: I came in here to edit and add this information I just found online:

Watercolour copy by D.H. Lawrence of the painting 'An Idyll' by M. Greiffenhagen; 1911

Signed 'D.H.L.'.

Greiffenhagen's 'The Idyll' was first exhibited in the Royal Academy 1891, then housed in the Walker Art Gallery, Liverpool; Lawrence made 4 copies of the painting, this copy was executed for and presented to Agnes Holt on her marriage to Walter Blanchard, 5 Aug. 1911; other copies were given to Louie Burrows, Ada Lawrence and William McLeod.

The author DH Lawrence refers to this painting in his novel 'The White Peacock'. Lawrence was a writer whose relationship with the visual arts was particularly strong. In 1929 he admitted
"all my life I have gone back to painting, because it gave me a form of delight that words can never give."
To Lawrence, 'An Idyll' visualised the word passion. Blanche Jennings, a suffragette post clerk in Liverpool with whom Lawrence corresponded, had sent him a reproduction of this popular painting. Lawrence was fascinated by the picture, confessing in a 1908 letter to Blanche Jennings:
"the painting moved me almost as much as if I had fallen in love myself."
Lawrence made three copies of 'An Idyll', one of which he started drawing the night his mother died in 1910.
Signed and dated: MAURICE GREIFFENHAGEN 1891(bottom right).
Purchased by the Walker Art Gallery from the Liverpool Autumn Exhibition in 1891.

Funny, online I keep finding the artist's name spelled both ways. On the back of my book cover, it is spelled wrong, leaving out the one 'e' completely. I think the above spelling is the correct one - GREIFFENHAGEN
05-31-2008, 10:51 PM
Quark

Nice pictures, Janine. I see now the piano candles wouldn't be as much of a fire hazard as I anticipated. I still don't see how they could illuminate your music, though.

The painting is also interesting. It's very Lawrencian with it's pre-Raphaelite sensuality.