God Speaking...anyone listening?

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Originally Posted by mal4mac

Well I did mention Zeus. Why believe in God rather than Zeus? There are actually modern stoics who proclaim a belief in Zeus. Or why not Allah or Odin? Why so many Gods? It's because they don't exist, because there is no evidence for any one of them.



Yes, all for not believing in some God, or believing in a different God. Give up believing in any God, and maybe some of this irrational violence will go away, there would then be no religious excuse for it.

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There are certain religions that have better arguments than others. Christianity, by far, has the strongest arguments in defense of religion. And once again, you can't say something doesn't exist if you can't prove it in the same way that I can't say I can prove God exists, but I believe that he does exist. There's a major difference there.

And without God, everything is permitted. I don't know how you think in a world without religion people will become more civilized and compassionate. Look at all the wars done in the name of communism. The most barbaric statist atheistic communist dictators sought to wipe out religion, and that idea has killed more people in the 20th century than all of the religious wars combined. Think about that.

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Originally Posted by SentimentalSlop

There are certain religions that have better arguments than others. Christianity, by far, has the strongest arguments in defense of religion.

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Have you read the Pali Canon? Or the Upanishads? Or Plato? Or Aristotle? Or the Koran? I've attempted to understand the main religious arguments of all of these in attempt to find better arguments than those of Christian authors. I have certainly found these in Plato, Aristotle & Buddhism. Of course Christianity tried to steal the best bits of Plato & Aristotle, but diluted their arguments with a lot "tooth fairy nonsense" like virgin birth, resurrection, whatever... Of course since Descartes, Kant, Darwin, Nietzsche, Russell et. al. even the the religious arguments of the Ancient Greeks & Buddhists can't stand up to the skeptical assault of atheist arguments.

Uhm look at all the wars in the name of religion. Don't flatter yourself. Why not admit that conflict is a natural state like happiness?

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Originally Posted by SentimentalSlop

There are certain religions that have better arguments than others. Christianity, by far, has the strongest arguments in defense of religion. And once again, you can't say something doesn't exist if you can't prove it in the same way that I can't say I can prove God exists, but I believe that he does exist. There's a major difference there.

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belief is a funny thing and do not forget just as we believe we also disbelieve just as easily.

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And without God, everything is permitted. I don't know how you think in a world without religion people will become more civilized and compassionate. Look at all the wars done in the name of communism. The most barbaric statist atheistic communist dictators sought to wipe out religion, and that idea has killed more people in the 20th century than all of the religious wars combined. Think about that.

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that is not true. the worst wars were in the name of religion and they still go on today.it is called fanatism and terrorism. that is what religion does. it gives people the incentive to go on a rampage just like communism. it is exactly the same. religion is an institution just like communism. there is no difference there.
and god does not keep people saine or disorganised god is just another subject to talk about.
juts like politics it is a concept to monopolise control and build and destroy.
what kind of life is this if god is a notion that controls feelings and thoughts? not much I would say I think I need to start living a life that I cant think and decide for myself away from religion and politics for that matter.
the other thing to consider is this you may believe in god but I do not think god believes in anyone and that is the bottom line.

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Originally Posted by SentimentalSlop

There are certain religions that have better arguments than others. Christianity, by far, has the strongest arguments in defense of religion.

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That's like saying the English language is by far a superior language than any other and should therefore negate all other languages.

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Originally Posted by Delta40

That's like saying the English language is by far a superior language than any other and should therefore negate all other languages.

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Language and religion are a LITTLE different, don't you think? People who think all religions are the same are the same people who don't want to think. Somehow it's offensive in today's world to believe that some beliefs are better than others.

People experience the world through the language they speak. You're the one who made the claim that Christianity trumps other beliefs, not me.

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Originally Posted by Delta40

Uhm look at all the wars in the name of religion. Don't flatter yourself. Why not admit that conflict is a natural state like happiness?

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Look at all the petty wars in the name of any thing. Don't be ridiculous. ROFLMAO

A boy walked along with his father and asked, "Do you believe in God?" The father thought for a moment and answered by pointing to an anthill in the sidewalk at their feet, with several lines of tiny ants moving about in orderly lines as they carried out their ant duties.
"Do you see those ants?" he asked. "They live in the same world we do, in the same structures, eating the same foods, and yet they could no more describe you or I than we could describe a God. If one is there at all, God's existence is not dependent on us or our belief. And our existence is not his chief concern. Have you ever noticed the ants before?" The boy shook his head and the father asked, "Do you think they notice us standing here watching them?" The boy again said no.

The father reached out with the tip of his shoe and swiped at the anthill, destroying it and killing many ants, sending the others scurrying into a frenzy of activity. "Do they notice us NOW?" He asked. Without waiting for an answer he continued, "This is the nature of our relationship with whatever god may exist. If he is real, we may never know until such times as he decides, by design or misstep, to send us to ruin. And even then, any rage we may feel would be impotent and unheard. And any god that exists would notice us only if he accidentally stepped on our world, and even then only briefly and without caring. So we do what these ants are doing now: acknowledge that there are forces much greater than we can comprehend, clean up our dead, rebuild our homes and hope he doesn't step on us again."

Outstanding analogy!

I have said so many times that the christian god treats humans exactly as humans treat an ant-farm, and here you are putting in exactly those terms.

Gloucester -- from King Lear:

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As flies to wanton boys are we to th' gods, They kill us for their sport.

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Speaking of ants (and other eusocial insects), their cooperative nature may be the result of hapilodiploidy, a form of reproduction in which males have no fathers (they are born from unfertilized eggs). Here's a superb New Yorker article about it (unfortunately available in full only to subscribers):

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2...a_fact_lehrer/

A boy walked along with his father and asked, "Do you believe in God?"

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The father thought for a moment and answered by pointing to an anthill in the sidewalk at their feet, with several lines of tiny ants moving about in orderly lines as they carried out their ant duties.
"Do you see those ants?" he asked. "They live in the same world we do, in the same structures, eating the same foods, and yet they could no more describe you or I than we could describe a God. If one is there at all, God's existence is not dependent on us or our belief. And our existence is not his chief concern. Have you ever noticed the ants before?" The boy shook his head and the father asked, "Do you think they notice us standing here watching them?" The boy again said no.

The father reached out with the tip of his shoe and swiped at the anthill, destroying it and killing many ants, sending the others scurrying into a frenzy of activity. "Do they notice us NOW?" He asked. Without waiting for an answer he continued, "This is the nature of our relationship with whatever god may exist. If he is real, we may never know until such times as he decides, by design or misstep, to send us to ruin. And even then, any rage we may feel would be impotent and unheard. And any god that exists would notice us only if he accidentally stepped on our world, and even then only briefly and without caring. So we do what these ants are doing now: acknowledge that there are forces much greater than we can comprehend, clean up our dead, rebuild our homes and hope he doesn't step on us again."

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So does that count as a yes? or perhaps a no? Hadn`t a straightforward answer sufficed? It is not smooth following for but it gets worse and even murkier when people like the father comes up with their own set of theories to define religion and/or people their beliefs/views.

The father should, perhaps, have said, "They could no more describe you or ME than we could describe God." I hope the anecdote is not meant to disparage the language skills of agnostics.

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

Outstanding analogy!

I have said so many times that the christian god treats humans exactly as humans treat an ant-farm, and here you are putting in exactly those terms.

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My more vulgar opinion is that the God as it is imagined by man is a petulant little boy standing over an anthill, only taking notice of it when he remembers to bring his magnifying glass in order to burn a few dozen.

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Originally Posted by Bleeding Pawn

A boy walked along with his father and asked, "Do you believe in God?"



So does that count as a yes? or perhaps a no? Hadn`t a straightforward answer sufficed? It is not smooth following for but it gets worse and even murkier when people like the father comes up with their own set of theories to define religion and/or people their beliefs/views.

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The answer is, there is no answer that would satisfy or even matter. The better question would be, does God notice if we believe? And if he does, is he immediately dismissed from deity status by his own vanity?

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Originally Posted by Ecurb

The father should, perhaps, have said, "They could no more describe you or ME than we could describe God." I hope the anecdote is not meant to disparage the language skills of agnostics.

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The devil made me do it.