Let's Go Vegetarian

Thanks a lot Neely! That is quite relieving, though I should have been aware of the fact! Of late I've been so paranoid :rolleyes: about everything...(one explanation for this might be that I didn't get too many comments on my poem, and I honestly don't know what to think of it :( )

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Originally Posted by JackieGinger

Thanks a lot Neely! That is quite relieving, though I should have been aware of the fact! Of late I've been so paranoid :rolleyes: about everything...(one explanation for this might be that I didn't get too many comments on my poem, and I honestly don't know what to think of it :( )

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I work with a Romanian lady, and I have taught Romanians who can speak English, but needed to improve their grammar and spelling etc. If people are labelling a whole country, then they are frankly daft. There are nice people from everywhere.

I also travelled to Hungary in the early 90's. We really liked it - Budapest was great, and Lake Balaton was a brilliant place to visit. We found the people - as everywhere - very friendly.

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Originally Posted by billl

Again, I think the "kill to eat" usually (or, at least, most usefully) occurs in the form of a "Would you..." thought experiment. Laziness or skill aside, gardening would of course be quite different to do or observe being done, for most people. I used to be completely oblivious to how meat made it into the supermarkets, and always sensed it would be troublesome to pursue such thinking.

Whatever one's conclusions, I think it is useful to think about how so much cheap meat comes about. Presumably, it could be even cheaper, if less consideration for the animals (and workers) were shown. Looking into current practices, I've seen some improvements (apparently, a growing fraction of veal, 35% on the Wikipedia page, is coming from animals that have been permitted to socialize, walk, and see grass and sky like normal cattle would), and plenty of situations that remain disturbing, and uncomfortable to contemplate.

I am sure that my eating habits aren't perfect, and I am no "fundamentalist" about animal suffering. But I think we can push back against the often inhuman thrust of large-industry profit motives, from time to time, at the very least. If not to shut a factory down, then perhaps to at least slow the line down, when necessary.

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As I understand the gist or idea of your post, I think it is a most important, beneficial, and necessary effort that we as humanity need to make. Thanks so much for stating this so well.

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Originally Posted by Buddha

One day Gautama Buddha saw sheep being driven to be slaughtered at a Yajna (sacrifice). He tenderly lifted a sweet little lamb on his shoulder and followed the sheep to the special enclosure where the ruler of the State was performing the Yajna. On being told that the ceremonial killing of the lamb will bring great good to the ruler and the state, Buddha said, "Of course you must admit that a man, a prince, a monk is much more valuable than a tiny trivial lamb. Kill me and win merit, a hundredfold", and advised him about the inner weaknesses and vices that are symbolized by the victims of the Yajna. Buddha argued him out of his false attachment to the paltry benefits promised for ritual correctitude. He told him that the prayer that rose from every Indian at sunrise and sunset was "Let all beings attain happiness". To kill so that you may live longer and with fuller joy is a reprehensible act, Buddha declared. You have to sacrifice, not a bleating sheep, but your own animality, the bestial lust and greed, hate and malice. Sacrifice these and you earn the heaven of unflinching peace.

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http://www.cosmicharmony.com/Av/Buddha/Buddha.htm

To each his own... I enjoy meat. Doing what is pleasant (in moderation) seems better to me than eating a diet based upon guilt.

NikolaiI, yes I like that one. Oh I have finished that book you recommended me, it was very interesting thanks, a good mixture of primary extracts.

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Originally Posted by 9 Bean Rows

To each his own... I enjoy meat. Doing what is pleasant (in moderation) seems better to me than eating a diet based upon guilt.

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Ah, the framing thing. You may say it is based on guilt or you may say it is based on empathy. That's called framing - how you frame it, to make it seem favourable or unfavourable.

Technically, I suppose all opinion is "framed". However my comment was not based upon another person's reasoning, but simply my own (i.e. should I choose to 'go vegan'). I do not require everyone to agree with me in order to respect them nor do I feel compelled to demean those with whom I disagree. It's called tolerance, I believe.

H NikolaiI,

I should just point out that the Buddha is often claimed as part of the Hindu canon - an incarnation of Siva. Whilst this isn't a problem for Buddhists, there are fundamantal differences with regards to Karma, Reincarnation and the ultimate nature of reality in the teachings of the Buddha and texts like the Vedas and Bhagavad Gita. I just noted your source was a Hindu site.

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Originally Posted by 9 Bean Rows

Technically, I suppose all opinion is "framed". However my comment was not based upon another person's reasoning, but simply my own (i.e. should I choose to 'go vegan'). I do not require everyone to agree with me in order to respect them nor do I feel compelled to demean those with whom I disagree. It's called tolerance, I believe.

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I wasn't referring to your position but how you stated it. As in, I prefer to act in what is pleasurable (in moderation) rather than eat a diet out of guilt. That is using a word with negative implications. That's what framing is. The other side of the issue would be vegetarians who would say that their diet is the compassionate way, and that others are a heartless way. Then if they asked you, "Do you eat a diet that is the compassionate life-style or do you eat a diet which is heartless?" That's an extreme case but that illustrates what framing is. You can't answer the question because it isn't asked fairly but it is framed in a completely subjective way.

I wasn't criticizing you just commenting, and of course the what you said wasn't a extreme case of it - just a mild form of framing to make it sound like those who are vegetarians, well that they are associated with guilt somehow.

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Originally Posted by 9 Bean Rows

To each his own... I enjoy meat. Doing what is pleasant (in moderation) seems better to me than eating a diet based upon guilt.

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It is a global economy - to each his own implies some kind of individual isolation, but the fact is that all actions have repercussions. No Man is an Island.

The argument earlier in the thread was about choice and the consequences of choice. You could try to justify anything because it is pleasant. It's not really an argument.

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Originally Posted by skib

Cheese is iffy. It is an animal by product (it doesn't harm the animal in any way) so if your views are strictly for not harming a creature, no biggy. Eggs, definitely. Eggs would eventually grow into chickens. I don't see how that counts as vegetarianism.
Meat is not strictly about taste. If I was more educated in nutrition, I would tell you, but something about amino acids, protein, things like that. For carnivores like myself, taste is a definite plus. But taste isn't the sole reason for consumption.

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Well, I would just probably give the example TheDave gave a long while ago, of Dave Scott, who lived on a vegetarian diet, winning the Olympic triathlon gold medal more than once...

As for nutrition, I can tell you that I am strong and healthy as a vegetarian, although perhaps not as strong and healthy as Dave Scott. But the point is that you can be strong and healthy as a vegetarian. And you can do serious exercise or sports, like Dave Scott.

As one person pointed out, there are societies in India, some places the whole village is vegetarian. And they are healthy and happy. They live their whole lives, long lives, healthy and happy. So that's pretty strong evidence that it's possible to live a long life free of disease.

And actually, Skib, there is very extensive research and studying giving a ton of evidence for the health benefits of eating a veggie diet. Less chances for almost all kinds of cancer is a big one, and many other diseases. Lifestyle of course is necessary, but those studies, I think they are fairly scientific. It's not just sentimentalism but those are facts.

I just saw your blog and I am not telling you what to do.

As for eggs, no egg you will buy in the store would ever have become a chicken, because they are unfertilized.

As for cheese - well, on farms where cows are loved and considered to be sacred, and kept with care and love; those are happy cows. And oxes used to work - that is their natural life. It is not exploiting to work, actually they need to work, just like certain types of dogs need to run every day.

Actually the Vedas say that the cow is one of the natural mothers of humans (one's natural mother, the teacher or the wife of one's teacher, the earth, the cow, etc.). They are considered to be the mother of humanity because of the nurturing relationship and how they provide us milk. And the ox is like the father. So that is why the cow is considered to be sacred and it is very wrong to kill them.


But Billl said it best. I understand that I am very unliked around here because I am a vegetarian, so I hope I don't tarnish him by saying that admire what he said. But it would be very good if we could give a push against the profit-is-the-bottom-line system which is going on - I know I can't say it as well as Bill. Another thing I heard someone say once, in response to the argument of doing good for humans is a higher priority than doing good for animals, was the following: knowing the agricultural and environmental benefits of growing crops to feed humans as opposed to growing grain to feed cattle, etc., what would be better than a reduction of grain-fed meat, for humans? That is, knowing how much more food would be available for feeding humans, as well as the environmental benefits too.

The idea of being vegetarians is really appealing.