hahah - that must have been it then. You just have overload of the brain! Common on this site.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
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hahah - that must have been it then. You just have overload of the brain! Common on this site.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Anti, you can probably find an inexpensive copy of The White Peacock at a good used book store. But weren't we reading The Rainbow here on lit net in the summer? You may want to wait for that read for a Lawrence novel.
Oh, I hope that helps you, Antiquarian. I did see a few for about 5 - 15 dollars. Of course you always have to add that darn shipping and it is high on books I think, even used ones, paperbacks. Yes, $26 is too much. If I can asess my full file of what I bought on Amazon last couple years I can see how much I spend for mine. I think it was used but not sure; was in good condition; now it definitely is used (by me).Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
Quote by Virgil
Virgil, can you really find one at a used bookstore, do you think? Where - somewhere in NYC perhaps? You should keep your eye out for a copy for Antiq; you are good at finding these rare books.Quote:
Anti, you can probably find an inexpensive copy of The White Peacock at a good used book store. But weren't we reading The Rainbow here on lit net in the summer? You may want to wait for that read for a Lawrence novel.
Yes, actually we are planning a reading of "The Rainbow" soon - come summer. So far we have discussed "Sons and Lovers", and "Women in Love". The participants of those discussions, have expressed the desire to do another Lawrence full-length novel. I have just been fiddling around for now with shorter works until we get to "The Rainbow". I wanted things to get a little more settled (in my personal life) and then we can approach that new book discussion.
Dark Muse, I went back to read your long post and I agree with everything you posted there. Thanks for this information: "Yes it is German, "Walküre" is German for Valkyrie, and the "Waulkure score, is from the Wagner Ride of the Valkyries opera"...I think I have some illustrations from this opera or book.
Ok, I had a chance to work on the next part of the text so here it is. Go ahead and discuss it; I did add some of my own comments again and some things I am questioning.
Next Part of the Text:
A good description of Winifred and how Coutts perceives her. I take it her uncorseted figure makes her appear more casual and sexy to him. This part does seem to suggest to me that she does indeed play the piano along with the violin. I found that last line of particular interest. Again this does reveal how familiar the two are to each other.Quote:
She bowed her head. Of compact physique, uncorseted, her figure bowed richly to the piano. He watched the shallow concave between her shoulders, marvelling at its rich solidity. She let one arm fall loose, he looked at the shadows in the dimples of her elbow. Slowly smiling a look of brooding affection, of acknowledgment upon him for a forgetful moment, she said:
Exactly what does he mean by this statement?Quote:
"And what have you done lately?"
"Simply nothing," he replied quietly. "For all that these months have been so full of variety, I think they will sink out of my life; they will evaporate and leave no result; I shall forget them."
I like this first line in this section with her blue eyes dark and heavy upon him, watching…Quote:
Her blue eyes were dark and heavy upon him, watching. She did not answer. He smiled faintly at her.
"And you?" he said, at length.
"With me it is different," she said quietly.
"You sit with your crystal," he laughed.
"While you tilt . . ." She hung on her ending.
Here is where he first brings up the idea of the crystal and she says he tilts – does that mean he is faltering, or tilting towards her, or what exactly does this mean?
I also very much liked that passage and it made me wonder about his use of the word ‘visions’ and then of ‘dreams’. What exactly does Coutts mean to imply by this. Is it Winifred he is dreaming of or is it Connie?Quote:
He laughed, sighed, and they were quiet awhile.
"I've got such a skinful of heavy visions, they come sweating through my dreams," he said.
Prompted by his remark, Winifred goes on to ask him:
I am not well read enough, to know who Meredith is, in reference to passage. Does anyone know? Obviously he is being sarcastic when he says “very healthy”; can someone confirm that or correct me.Quote:
"Whom have you read?" She smiled.
"Meredith. Very healthy," he laughed.
She laughed quickly at being caught.
"Now, have you found out all you want?" he asked.
"Oh, no," she cried with full throat.
"Well, finish, at any rate. I'm not diseased. How are you?"
"But . . . but . . ." she stumbled on doggedly. "What do you intend to do?"
He hardened the line of his mouth and eyes, only to retort with immediate lightness:
"Just go on."
Then why does she say she is caught. Is Meredith a mystical or magical author?
Why does he say “I’m not diseased” – does he mean he is not distressed over her questioning?
This paragraph seemed key. Now the truth comes out how she does feel about him marrying. Is she opposed to him marrying Connie or any woman for that matter? That last line is truly a key statement and explains so much.Quote:
This was their battlefield: she could not understand how he could marry: it seemed almost monstrous to her; she fought against his marriage. She looked up at him, witch-like, from under bent brows. Her eyes were dark blue and heavy. He shivered, shrank with pain. She was so cruel to that other, common, everyday part of him.
So now they do finally confront the real issue of the marriage. She is obviously bitter with displeasure and the prospects of him marrying. She pressed the point and he replies:Quote:
"I wonder you dare go on like it," she said.
"Why dare?" he replied. "What's the odds?"
"I don't know," she answered, in deep, bitter displeasure.
"And I don't care," he said.
"But . . ." she continued, slowly, gravely pressing the point: "You know what you intend to do."
"Marry--settle--be a good husband, good father, partner in the business; get fat, be an amiable gentleman--Q.E.F."
"Very good," she said, deep and final.
"Thank you."
"I did not congratulate you," she said.
"Ah!" His voice tailed off into sadness and self-mistrust. Meanwhile she watched him heavily. He did not mind being scrutinised: it flattered him.
"Marry--settle--be a good husband, good father, partner in the business; get fat, be an amiable gentleman--Q.E.F."
Just curious what does Q.E.F. stand for? I know I am lame. Does anyone else think or perceive that his tone here is cynical? Or is it just being resigned to the situation of being married, being acceptable and respectable, to society as well?
I think we did discuss the fact that he forsees what would happen if it were Winifred and not Connie he would stay with, married or as a lover. He knows they would become ‘abnormal.’ Those last few statements are interesting – he remarks he is marrying due to instinct; and yet it seems to me it is the opposite - He is marrying and ignoring his true self and instincts.Quote:
"Yes, it is, or may be, very good," she began; "but why all this?--why?"
"And why not? And why?--Because I want to."
He could not leave it thus flippantly.
"You know, Winifred, we should only drive each other into insanity, you and I: become abnormal."
"Well," she said, "and even so, why the other?"
"My marriage?--I don't know. Instinct."
"One has so many instincts," she laughed bitterly.
That was a new idea to him.
When Winifred says to him “One had so many instincts” he then sees it as a new idea. To me that is curious. What does everyone thing of these two statements?
We are starting to agree way too much now LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by Janine
This is around the second or third time Lawrence mentions she is uncorseted. It is certainly sexually stimulating to Coutts, but I wonder if it carried any cultural connotation in that time? Is it the equivalent of a tramp (say someone walking around braless and with six inch heels) in today's society or is just an option that a respectable lady might choose?Quote:
She bowed her head. Of compact physique, uncorseted, her figure bowed richly to the piano. He watched the shallow concave between her shoulders, marvelling at its rich solidity. She let one arm fall loose, he looked at the shadows in the dimples of her elbow.
Also notice how many times Lawrence mentions arms or parts of Wini's arms. Here it's elbows, but it occurs frequently. In fact at the climax of the story when Coutts is completely bewitched, doesn't Wini do some magical motion with her arms? It seems to be a running motif. In fact even at the beginning she is playing the violin, an arm specific instrument. Her arms are very sensual.
I think Coutts is referring to a Victorian novelist named George Meredth. Here: http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/.../biograph.html.
To me this seems almost as if he is talking about his apprehensions about his soon to be married life. He seems to be talking about how the life he once lived will be no more, and he is expressing his fears of being stagnent in marraige.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I am not personally famialir with Meredith, but I did some research, and there was an English Novelst/Poet George Meredith though I am not familair with his work to say how it could be relevent here. But here is some information I found about him:Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/.../biograph.html
Yes I think it might by cynical in nature, considering it seems that he is not completely sure he wants to be married, and particulary not to a woman like Connie.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
The way it is used here, I think by Q.E.F. He means the Latin Quod Erat Faciendum which means Which Was to be Done
Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
When I first read it, I thought she was implying sexual desire, and passion, when she speaks of there being so many instincts, as a retort to his own words about getting married on an instinct.
After reading a little about the author Meredith, I think I understand the connotation or suggestions here. I can't really put it into words now, except to say his work was very psychological and dealt with complex relationships apparently. If you go and read about Meredith you will find it quite interesting about his life; his work seemed to be ahead of it's time, one piece was rejected or banned. Also, the man's wife and he both had strong 'wills' and the marriage did not work out. They finally split up, when she eloped with another man. I found his biography curious and it seemed that Lawrence chose this author purposely for this story, to mean something symbolic; especially since Winifred "laughed at being caught". It is like they both know the full meaning of Coutt's reference to this author's work. Remeber they have been talking in a sort of code to each other all along - not very straighforward.Quote:
"Whom have you read?" She smiled.
"Meredith. Very healthy," he laughed.
She laughed quickly at being caught.
I think women who did not wear corsets in those days were rebelling against that constraint; much like women in the 60's burned their bras. It did not necessarily mean the woman was a loose woman. It would just indicate that she is a more progressive, modern thinking woman. It would represent the throwing off of the Victorian invention and constraint of being harnessed in an uncomforable corset all day - those corsets could be brutal. When I watch period films, often the actress will mention the fact, that they are so uncomfortable and stiff and actually pinch a person. I read one time that woman actually developed internal organ problems from wearing those horrid things. I don't blame women from that time to simply rebell and do away with them. I think in this story, it would further point out the difference in the two women, Connie being very proper and conventenial and Winifred being more like an artist, freer and a modern type woman who throws off the old traditions, conventions. Of course, the effect would be more appealing to a man or to some men; very proper men might find it offensive. Obviously, Coutts was more modern thinking, and probably liked this look for a woman. Women in corsetts appeared stiff and stand-offish; whereas a woman with a loose fitting bodice would look feminine and desirable. Again, I don't think this indicates a loose woman without morals. I just think that it shows a freer nature. I believe in "Women in Love" this is mentioned many times throughout the novel. It might be in regard to Gudrun who was the more progressive of the two sisters in her thinking. This certainly did not mean that Gundrun threw herself around with men. She just was a much freer spirit being an artist and modern type woman.
I will have to review the rest of the posts tomorrow. I am so awfully tired now and need some sleep. I know I missed things and will try to answer all tomorrow. Sorry I missed answering your remarks, Antiquarian. I am half awake so I can't think too clearly now to post anymore. Tomorrow I will do so.
Yes, Dark Muse, we certainly are agreeing a lot lately - downright scary! :lol:
Good job on all the posts everyone; glad you all saw the new portion of text I posted tonight.
Thanks for posting links to sites about Meredith, Virgil and DM. I found those interesting and one said he influenced the writing of Thomas Hardy. I will have to read some of his poetry.
I can't hardly stay awake now. I was watching another play on a DVD and my eyes kept closing. Last night I watched the same one and actually fell asleep sitting up on the sofa; I never do that so it was strange for me. I almost fell asleep again finishing it up. Says much for the play, doesn't it? No just kidding, it is me; I feel extremely tired out tonight.
Thanks D-M. I was wondering. Not sure how it fits in, other than just banter by intelligent people of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Instinct is a charged word for Lawrence. He believes on relying on instinct which is associated with blood knowledge and apart from mental knowledge.Quote:
When I first read it, I thought she was implying sexual desire, and passion, when she speaks of there being so many instincts, as a retort to his own words about getting married on an instinct.
Thanks for that janine. I didn't have time to read up on him. I have never read him, but i can see how it would relate to lawrence. Surprising Meredith is never mentioned as a possible Lawrence influence. At least I've never come across it. Perhaps it might be interesting to read something by Meredith, but i won't have the time i'm afraid. There are more important reads to spend my time on.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
That is great perception Janine, and I think I whole heartedly agree with it. I do not think Wini is a tramp, but a modern woman of her day. (Or is that synonymous with tramp? :p :p Only kidding, by the way before I'm bombarded with tomatoes :lol: ) I guess this was written when Lawrence was more sympathetic to modern women (the story is titled "a la mode") but we can already see the ambivilance toward them. Is Wini a postive character or a negative character?Quote:
I think women who did not wear corsets in those days were rebelling against that constraint; much like women in the 60's burned their bras. It did not necessarily mean the woman was a loose woman. It would just indicate that she is a more progressive, modern thinking woman. It would represent the throwing off of the Victorian invention and constraint of being harnessed in an uncomforable corset all day - those corsets could be brutal. When I watch period films, often the actress will mention the fact, that they are so uncomfortable and stiff and actually pinch a person. I read one time that woman actually developed internal organ problems from wearing those horrid things. I don't blame women from that time to simply rebell and do away with them. I think in this story, it would further point out the difference in the two women, Connie being very proper and conventenial and Winifred being more like an artist, freer and a modern type woman who throws off the old traditions, conventions. Of course, the effect would be more appealing to a man or to some men; very proper men might find it offensive. Obviously, Coutts was more modern thinking, and probably liked this look for a woman. Women in corsetts appeared stiff and stand-offish; whereas a woman with a loose fitting bodice would look feminine and desirable. Again, I don't think this indicates a loose woman without morals. I just think that it shows a freer nature. I believe in "Women in Love" this is mentioned many times throughout the novel. It might be in regard to Gudrun who was the more progressive of the two sisters in her thinking. This certainly did not mean that Gundrun threw herself around with men. She just was a much freer spirit being an artist and modern type woman.
Interesting this story seems to have another Jesse/modern woman split. Interesting how Lawrence ultimately chose Frieda, who I think would fit the modern woman figure. Janine, would you associate Connie in this story with Jesse?
I thought the way he was talking about marraige, he was just saying in an off handed way, that marraige was just the thing to do. Every young bachelor is exepcted to settle down eventually.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Well, I didn't!!! In my post #2022 I wrote this Antiquarian:Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
I would have addressed it last night and answered any questions, too, etc.; but I seriously could not keep my eyes open and I felt dreadul with my painful stomach.Quote:
I will have to review the rest of the posts tomorrow. I am so awfully tired now and need some sleep. I know I missed things and will try to answer all tomorrow. Sorry I missed answering your remarks, Antiquarian. I am half awake, so I can't think too clearly now to post anymore. Tomorrow I will do so.
Now I am going back to read it and review. Sometimes when this happens to me, I ask them everyone, anyone to go back and read my specific post; I post the exact number, so they can find it.
Sorry, don't feel slighted, Antiq. This happens to me all the time. With 4 or 5 of us discussing we seem to move along so quickly that things do get lost in the shuffle. But I will dig up that post and answer it now.
Which post number Anti? I'll go back to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
Actually, I am working on it right now offline, Antiquarian. I am being quite thorough, so prepare yourself to read it. ;) :lol: Anyway, I know you were joking, but seriously I do know my own posts, some that take me literally an hour to write, sometimes get left behind. I hate when that happens; then it feels like I am talking to the air. I know it is not skipped intentionally; as I said we just move along so quickly sometimes.
Antiquaian, I am only feeling a tad better, but thanks. I still may try and go out this evening. I am sick of being stuck at home. I am quite disgusted with this stomach problem, that can't seem to get resolved. I guess I ate something the other night just did not agree with me, might have been salad. Well, hope you are feeling better too. Rainy and damp here again today.:bawling:
Be back real soon with that post I am working on.:D
Actually, I do think that Dark Muse mentioned this way back to me, when I asked anyone what he meant by that. I didn't read DQ, but I should have known it I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
That is funny, I can't tell jokes either; I always foul up the punch line. That reminds me of the short story in the Chekhov thread - I will be interested to know what you all thought of the mirage of the monk appearing in the night or field. I read that late and I think I got to chapter 3. I like it so much so far. It is very poetic this time.Quote:
I never did tell a joke well at alll. (I don't usually "get" them, either. Not jokes or sarcasm. Both can just go right over my head. Makes me feel very stupid. Not joking about that. LOL I am ashamed to admit it, but when I first read "The Open Window" in high school, I thought the returning hunters really were ghosts. I think I was the only person in the class who didn't "get" it. I think I've improved a little now. ;)
Thanks, just par for the course. I have been plagued with chronic problems for years. I just have to work around them.Quote:
I'm sorry to read you're not feeling back to yourself today, Janine. It's so hard when these things go on and on. Take your time. Don't stress over us or the thread. We'll get along for awhile until you get back to yourself, though of course we need you here! :)
Don't worry so much, Antiquarian, I just finished your post (and you all better read it or I will cry!:bawling:;) :lol: ). This should have me almost caught up with everyone. Here is my response:
From #2017, Quotes by Antiquarian
Thanks; I probably should have realized that. I think that awhile back, even Dark Muse mentioned that. I just forgot. You both are right – that must be the reference here.Quote:
When Winifred says Coutts "tilts" I think she's referreing to Don Quixote, who titled at windmills. I think she's being sarcastic and referring to Coutts' engagement to Connie as "tilting at windmills" or being futile.
Actually, we did find out, from Virgil’s great job of research, that Meridith was getting his start way back, starting in the early 1800’s and then later in the century, he seemed to have commanded some noteworthy attention. I did read the biography (from the link that Virgil provided) and it revealed a number of interesting things about the author, in relation to things that would interest Lawrence. Makes me want to find his poetry, at least the poetry to read; I don't have time for his novels now either, Virg. He apparently also influenced or actually helped Thomas Hardy with his writing. Hardy would mention him at times.Quote:
I don't think Meredith is anyone famous, probably just a mutual friend of Winifred and Coutts. I got the impression that they were talking about telling fortunes with crystals (witch like again) and Coutts "read" Meredith and found him "very healthy."
I have a friend who is very learned about Hardy and his biography, so I will have to ask him if he knows the connection. He might be able to shed more light on this and the fact that this author would be mentioned, in a Lawrence work. My friend also likes Lawrence, and is interested that I have such an avid interest now, myself. In fact, he recommended to me the first biography I read of Lawrence, one they used at his university; which was very good. “ "D.H.Lawrence - The Intelligent Heart” by Harry T. Moore. Moore is often quoted in other sources (I have used frequently) even to this day. He was a leading authority on Lawrence’s biography. Of course, now others, such as Worthen have written finer and more detailed biographies of L for Cambridge. But even Worthen will sometime quote Moore.
This is rather funny and others have also said this before. Last night while looking closer at the text, when I realized that it was not Winifred who said this about the “wild-goose chase” but it was Coutts, unless she said it earlier. Do you know if she or he mentioned this earlier in the story? See quote below:Quote:
Personally, I think Winifred is opposed to Coutts marrying anyone as she'd previously said he loved "the wild-goose chase." And he agreed.
Text quote:
Quotes by AntiquarianQuote:
"What point?" he answered; then, smiling: "You know you only like a wild-goose chase."
Now we have some light shed on what that possibly stands for. I too am not sure of the way this is being used or it’s meaning in context of this statement:Quote:
I don't know what Q.E.F. means and I couldn't find it online, but I think it refers to something to do with the Queen. Some title men in law or business would have or earn. The letters are capitalized with a period after them, so I think it's a title.
“"Marry--settle--be a good husband, good father, partner in the business; get fat, be an amiable gentleman--Q.E.F."
Q.E.F. if he means it to stand for the Latin ‘Quod Erat Faciendum’ meaning ‘Which Was to be Done’ – maybe he means after he becomes a husband he will then do whatever needs or should be done (?) – something along those lines. As a husband he then accepts all that responsibility that goes along with it, whatever that may be as it comes along.
Quote:
I think a part of Coutts wants to be married and settled and another part wants to be wild and free like Winifred. I get the idea that he's a little afraid of being wild and free and is denying that those instincts (Winifred is very comfortable with them, she even goes around without her corset, she wasn't even wearing it at Laura's) exist in him with his engagement to Connie. I think bewitching women like Winifred scare Coutts as much as they attract him. They force him to take a good look at who he really is and realize that he isn't the type to marry and that scares him.
Quote:
I think most women of that time wouldn't be caught dead in public without their corset on, but I'm not sure, and Laura and her father didn't seem to find it odd that Winifred was sans corset. I think it's first mentioned when she's playing the violin, but I'm not sure. Lawrence does keep coming back to the subject of her lack of attire.
I would pretty much agree with all of this. I don’t think her lack of a corset makes her truly bewitching (although it might in Coutt’s mind), but it does make her alluring, even sensual to him, in that she is different than the ‘old-fashioned’ stiff proper type of girl, who would project a type of inhibition. As I wrote earlier, in my post Winifred is more the image of a modern woman. This is the time of woman’s rights and suffrage and feminism, feminist authors; it is a totally transitional period for woman. If I look at photos of my own grandmother at this time, or even my great-grandmother, I don’t believe they wore stiff corsets; and believe me, neither of them were wild women. Maybe Americans were ahead of the times in this idea of rejecting corsets. I think this definitely shows us the distinct difference in the two woman in Coutt’s life. Winifred shows a much freer spirit and much more uninhibited; most likely Coutt’s finance is an inhibited type of woman. I think that Virgil and I agree that Connie (Louie) corresponds somewhat to Miriam (Jessie). I don’t think the two woman identical in any way but I think they both were restricted by their upbringing and the attitudes that their parents projected on them. Louie’s parents did not even approve of Lawrence, they were extremely strict and religious in their thoughts and this obviously is part of the story in the idea of the church shadow and various other references to the rectory and to religion in connection with Connie.
I was just ready to post all this, and my computer keyboard froze-up - it just refused to type anything...horrors! I thought I was going to lose this entire post, but quickly I could copy it to an offline program. Now periodically, when I hit a key my computer beeps; anybody know what that is all about? Also, I can't seem to get the light off that says "scroll lock" - anyone know what that is or why it won't go off - I hit the key that says the same and it does nothing at all? I am really dumb sometimes about certain aspects of the computer. I feel like this one is going to crash anytime now. If so, you all will know why I don't show up one day; but if that were to happen I would head for my library to use theirs soon as I could. I need a new computer badly!