Evolution vs. Creation

[QUOTE=Dyrwen]Unless God himself came down and said "Evolution is true, knock off all the crap about me doing it in 6 days" I doubt you'd believe anything. Once you call science a religion your whole basis for reality goes out the window. It's only a religion to the ignorant person that claims science is somehow infallible. Science admits to being wrong all the time, but they also reiterate being right many times over as well in varying arrays of the world around us.

Not everyone follows science blindly on their findings, as atiguhya padma said: "There is plenty of evidence for evolution: fruitflies, moths and bacteria all supply evidence of it. Take any creature that has a short lifespan, play around with its environment in specific ways and you will see evolution in action. Why do you think viruses are so good at combatting antibiotics?" There are plenty of things anyone can try to prove evolution, but some people would rather dispute it outright in favor of some magical sky pixie doing the job of their thinking it through dialectically for them.
[QUOTE]While everybody was blasting me for calling science a religion, did any of you take the time to notice that I DO believe in elolution, I just believe that God created everything first. And I can think for myself, thank you very much, or did you bother to read the part about me questioning everything? I'd don't object to being called names, heaven knows I've had my share and expect to get more before I pass the pale, but at least get the facts right! There are plenty of things to question about portions of the evolution theory, but people would rather brush them under the rug and extol the points that tend to prove it. The reliablity of carbon dating is certainly questionable, for example. The same samples tested at different times give widely varying readings. Which is right?

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Originally Posted by Dyrwen

Just because some douche makes a nuclear weapon, develops a biological agent to destroy lives, creates some weapon of any sort of destruction, doesn't make science evil. If you were an adult about these sort of things, you might know that. Blame the warmongers, blame the stupid governments that made it legal to use, blame the industrialists and capitalists that stiffled environmentalism all these years-but do not, and I repeat, do not blame all science for your own personal disagreements with a particular branch of science.

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Dyrwen clearly doesn't need any help here, but I must add, blame all the people who start wars and kill each other over religion. And bear that destructive effect of belief in mind, Okmit, next time you villify people for lack of belief.

[QUOTE=Pendragon][QUOTE=Dyrwen]Unless God himself came down and said "Evolution is true, knock off all the crap about me doing it in 6 days" I doubt you'd believe anything. Once you call science a religion your whole basis for reality goes out the window. It's only a religion to the ignorant person that claims science is somehow infallible. Science admits to being wrong all the time, but they also reiterate being right many times over as well in varying arrays of the world around us.

Not everyone follows science blindly on their findings, as atiguhya padma said: "There is plenty of evidence for evolution: fruitflies, moths and bacteria all supply evidence of it. Take any creature that has a short lifespan, play around with its environment in specific ways and you will see evolution in action. Why do you think viruses are so good at combatting antibiotics?" There are plenty of things anyone can try to prove evolution, but some people would rather dispute it outright in favor of some magical sky pixie doing the job of their thinking it through dialectically for them.

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While everybody was blasting me for calling science a religion, did any of you take the time to notice that I DO believe in elolution, I just believe that God created everything first. And I can think for myself, thank you very much, or did you bother to read the part about me questioning everything? I'd don't object to being called names, heaven knows I've had my share and expect to get more before I pass the pale, but at least get the facts right! There are plenty of things to question about portions of the evolution theory, but people would rather brush them under the rug and extol the points that tend to prove it. The reliablity of carbon dating is certainly questionable, for example. The same samples tested at different times give widely varying readings. Which is right?

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Ah, well, we guess that we agree with you in a point - there are very little things that one can be sure of (like CES or a=a).
But well, as Baddad said, when we think that the world or complex life needs reason, then why doesn't the reason need another reason, for it seems that it has to be more complex. Or is God a very simple thing, much simpler than these complex structures and doesn't therefore need a reason?
We are afraid that we have lost your original belief: do you believe that the Big Bang was caused by God?
Or that God created primitive life and that everything has evolved from there to here.
Or that what is written in the Bible plus that things have evolved a little?
The first two theories seem quite OK. The third seems to have more holes in it. What evidence is there that the Bible is the word of God, i.e?

This one will run and run.

Pendragon, the problem I have with your position is that Darwin's theory is built around randomness. Just to spell it out for those not clear about it, the process of natural selection is the process by which some of the millions of mutations that happen to organisms for no reason at all, by accident, survive because they render the organism more suited to its environment. Numerous other mutations occur that do not survive. This is what is meant by survival of the fittest - fitness for specific environments, not strength per se.

I'm an atheist and even I've felt upset at time about the lack of plan or meaning suggested by this process. But I do believe it.

How can one square this with the idea of a creator? Did the creator start the process with single cells and let it rip randomly, genuinely unaware of what would result? Did he/she know what was going to develop? If there was a plan, why have all the random mutations, the majority of which served no purpose and did not survive? Just to throw us off the scent? Seems silly. Much as many creationists find it hard to believe that the complexity of even small organisms could have resulted from anything but intelligent design, I find it very difficult to imagine any entity being capable of working out the programme for creating life over billions of years, random mutations and all and hard to imagine why they'd take such a circuitous route. Ah well, more things in heaven and earth than are dreamed of in our philosophy perhaps. But still, increasingly, not that many, because science has it's explanations not just for the development of organisms, but also the matter from which life was created. I'd be interested to know how far back you imagine the act of God that set it all off happened? I'd also be interested to hear your answer to Dyrwen's 'who created the creator' question. The only time I've asked a creationist this, he responded that this was 'a matter for faith' - which sounds like denial to me.

Interesting article that ran in the New York Times on scientists who do and do not believe in God, intelligent design, etc.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/23/na...=5070&emc=eta1

Ancestor,allow me to begin by apologizing for not only failing to to state that my post was reiterated fom arn,(access Research Network),Michael J. Behe FILES but also for my disrespectful report.But tell me,since I am not recieving a grade,royalties,or any acolades from the science community,or any other community--what difference does it make?Several posts have said the scientific community has proven Darwinism and I have attempted to show they have not.Not unlike myself when other posts make a scientific proclamation,they too have failed to disclose(quote)there source.Are they guilty also?On my not being respectful;How does my disrespect for what others think compare to the childish name calling and antagonistic posts that pagma and others have written?I have not said anyone was ignorant or their chosen theology was mumbo jumbo.

Taliesin,you are correct.They have achieved protiens in a LABORATORY condition--that is by intelligent design--Ooops.forgive me,I meant by"intelligent design"--lest I be accused of stealing a phrase.

Dyrwen--if Literature and scientific studies are entirely two different things--I didnt plagerize!And my ref.to you being an athiest was to point out your assesment that nothing is original must imply that whatever we say,think ,or do has its origin with GOD!

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Originally Posted by blp

Dyrwen clearly doesn't need any help here, but I must add, blame all the people who start wars and kill each other over religion. And bear that destructive effect of belief in mind, Okmit, next time you villify people for lack of belief.

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Thank you for the pearl of wisdom--in my ignorance I thought it was due to human greed,and pomposity.The last Holy war I fought in was in Viet Nam--excuse me that one wasnt about religion.I was to young for the Korean crusade--no no,that one had nothing to do with religion either--the two world wars are exempt.But I'm sure your correct anyhow.I did have belief when I went that I could assist in stopping the "Domino Effect."That would be the Evil spread of Communism(common ownership of property.)Alas,after returning home(minus my right leg)my Gov. seized My Private Property and sold it for back taxes!!Draat,my faith and service to man failed me again.If you put your FAITH in man,your going too get screwd whether its a scientist,Governor,or a"holy man."
Thanks again,okmit

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Originally Posted by okmit

Dyrwen--if Literature and scientific studies are entirely two different things--I didnt plagerize!And my ref.to you being an athiest was to point out your assesment that nothing is original must imply that whatever we say,think ,or do has its origin with GOD!

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It's always plagiarism until you cite your source, which you didn't do until I pointed it out. Now its a moot issue. Your second idea, if you could call it that, is barely put together in a readable line, but it doesn't appear to have much basis in this discussion in any case.

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Originally Posted by okmit

Several posts have said the scientific community has proven Darwinism and I have attempted to show they have not.

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I would like to bring this whole discussion to a point, because well, I dislike beating around the bush. So far things have gone like this: We give you evidence of evolution, you try to disprove it. We ask for evidence of creationism, you give us some idea about it all being "too complex" then ignore the questions I gave in response to that idea.

So, do us a favor and do what no one in the history of the world has done: Give us empirical evidence of creationism; not just evidence trying to disprove evolution. Can you do that? I sure hope so, because I'm tired of all this running around in circles about theology and explanations and science in general if we aren't even going to see the other side of this discussion's evidence.

So, have at it. And if you quote the Bible as a source, I want some tangible evidence found on earth referencable to check your point. i.e. If you were nuts enough to say something like man has one less rib than women, I'd check people around the world to make sure they all had or didn't have the same amount of ribs. (which they do) So please, give us your amazing evidence of creationism, since somehow the piles of evidence covering the walls of this place aren't good enough for you. Really. Go on.

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Or is God a very simple thing, much simpler than these complex structures and doesn't therefore need a reason?
We are afraid that we have lost your original belief: do you believe that the Big Bang was caused by God?
Or that God created primitive life and that everything has evolved from there to here.
Or that what is written in the Bible plus that things have evolved a little?
The first two theories seem quite OK. The third seems to have more holes in it. What evidence is there that the Bible is the word of God, i.e?

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Here is where we get interesting. My own concept of God is that He hides in the very simplicity of His nature. I believe it was philosopher David Hume who stated, and I paraphraze since it's been awhile that "God is so far beyond human understanding that the very idea of trying to understand Him is ludicrous." I'm not certain I agree with that. As to who created the Creator, I believe He has always existed. It may sound like a cop-out, but it's what I believe. Here's a handy quote from Thomas Jefferson that all of us could use: "The legitimate powers of the government extend to such acts as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say that there are 20 Gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

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Originally Posted by blp

This one will run and run.

Pendragon, the problem I have with your position is that Darwin's theory is built around randomness. Just to spell it out for those not clear about it, the process of natural selection is the process by which some of the millions of mutations that happen to organisms for no reason at all, by accident, survive because they render the organism more suited to its environment. Numerous other mutations occur that do not survive. This is what is meant by survival of the fittest - fitness for specific environments, not strength per se.

I'm an atheist and even I've felt upset at time about the lack of plan or meaning suggested by this process. But I do believe it.

How can one square this with the idea of a creator? Did the creator start the process with single cells and let it rip randomly, genuinely unaware of what would result? Did he/she know what was going to develop? If there was a plan, why have all the random mutations, the majority of which served no purpose and did not survive? Just to throw us off the scent? Seems silly. Much as many creationists find it hard to believe that the complexity of even small organisms could have resulted from anything but intelligent design, I find it very difficult to imagine any entity being capable of working out the programme for creating life over billions of years, random mutations and all and hard to imagine why they'd take such a circuitous route. Ah well, more things in heaven and earth than are dreamed of in our philosophy perhaps. But still, increasingly, not that many, because science has it's explanations not just for the development of organisms, but also the matter from which life was created. I'd be interested to know how far back you imagine the act of God that set it all off happened? I'd also be interested to hear your answer to Dyrwen's 'who created the creator' question. The only time I've asked a creationist this, he responded that this was 'a matter for faith' - which sounds like denial to me.

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My friend, for I have had atheists as friends before, you are certainly entitled to your belief. In the long run, we both will come to the final day of our lives. I'm prepared to die for what I believe, and I do not fear the darkness. I've been a Christian for years. Now, I'm disabled from an illness. I could spend my days asking why? Or I can look ahead to what I believe awaits. My choice. This world doesn't make a lot of sense to me either. But it's the one I have to live in, so I go on believing and existing. Someone asked what proof I have that the Bible is the Word of God. To be perfectly truthful, none that they would accept, because it cannot be scientifically measured or tested. Hey, I'm honest. Try getting that out of most creationists. Take care. Dragon out.

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Originally Posted by okmit

Ancestor,allow me to begin by apologizing for not only failing to to state that my post was reiterated fom arn,(access Research Network),Michael J. Behe FILES but also for my disrespectful report.But tell me,since I am not recieving a grade,royalties,or any acolades from the science community,or any other community--what difference does it make?Several posts have said the scientific community has proven Darwinism and I have attempted to show they have not.Not unlike myself when other posts make a scientific proclamation,they too have failed to disclose(quote)there source.Are they guilty also?On my not being respectful;How does my disrespect for what others think compare to the childish name calling and antagonistic posts that pagma and others have written?I have not said anyone was ignorant or their chosen theology was mumbo jumbo.

Taliesin,you are correct.They have achieved protiens in a LABORATORY condition--that is by intelligent design--Ooops.forgive me,I meant by"intelligent design"--lest I be accused of stealing a phrase.

Dyrwen--if Literature and scientific studies are entirely two different things--I didnt plagerize!And my ref.to you being an athiest was to point out your assesment that nothing is original must imply that whatever we say,think ,or do has its origin with GOD!

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Yes, I am aware that many people on this entire forum quote from other sources but I have seen them state from who. Also when you copy word for word of a whole page that is plagiarism not matter who does it. As a writer it does matter because I would not want someone to copy word for word from a published piece I wrote. That feels like they are taking credit for my hard work plus I always quote others whether they are dead or alive. I expect to get the same respect I give to others and if that is wrong then there is not a thing I can do because it is not me to be disrespectful. If I ever show disrespect then I hope someone points it out to me and I can correct my behavior. I did not say others behavior was right but if it offends you then take it up with them. I would and expect them same treatment from them. Why do you hate atheistist? They have the right to believe that a creator does not exist as much as I have the right to believe in one. I believe that it took both creator and evolution to make the world we live in today. I may be wrong but that is one reason I am on this topic to see what other theories or ideals are out there. Being open minded for me helps me understand and even re-examine my own ideals. No one out to get you just trying to understand other points of view.

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Originally Posted by Dyrwen

It's always plagiarism until you cite your source, which you didn't do until I pointed it out. Now its a moot issue. Your second idea, if you could call it that, is barely put together in a readable line, but it doesn't appear to have much basis in this discussion in any case.


I would like to bring this whole discussion to a point, because well, I dislike beating around the bush. So far things have gone like this: We give you evidence of evolution, you try to disprove it. We ask for evidence of creationism, you give us some idea about it all being "too complex" then ignore the questions I gave in response to that idea.

So, do us a favor and do what no one in the history of the world has done: Give us empirical evidence of creationism; not just evidence trying to disprove evolution. Can you do that? I sure hope so, because I'm tired of all this running around in circles about theology and explanations and science in general if we aren't even going to see the other side of this discussion's evidence.

So, have at it. And if you quote the Bible as a source, I want some tangible evidence found on earth referencable to check your point. i.e. If you were nuts enough to say something like man has one less rib than women, I'd check people around the world to make sure they all had or didn't have the same amount of ribs. (which they do) So please, give us your amazing evidence of creationism, since somehow the piles of evidence covering the walls of this place aren't good enough for you. Really. Go on.

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Easy partner--your getting much to excited.This is a rap fest that can only end in a hung jury due to a lack of evidence from ANY side!And contrary to what Ancestor thinks of me I dont hate anyone.Thats a mistake I made 35 years ago and will not repeat(learned behavior.)Back to the subject;I dont know why you find it necessary too call me immature,ignorant,or thief but a wise man once said,quote"The man that angers you,controls you."

Check out this thought;God is knowledge,the universal solution to all problems.That would explain idiot sav'ant.child prodigy,CoCo,and even why we care about this subject!

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Originally Posted by Ancestor

Why do you hate atheistist? They have the right to believe that a creator does not exist as much as I have the right to believe in one. I believe that it took both creator and evolution to make the world we live in today. I may be wrong but that is one reason I am on this topic to see what other theories or ideals are out there. Being open minded for me helps me understand and even re-examine my own ideals.

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Ancestor, where were you when the smoking guns came after me for basically the same beliefs? I was begining to think I was on my own out here!

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Originally Posted by okmit

Easy partner--your getting much to excited.This is a rap fest that can only end in a hung jury due to a lack of evidence from ANY side!And contrary to what Ancestor thinks of me I dont hate anyone.Thats a mistake I made 35 years ago and will not repeat(learned behavior.)Back to the subject;I dont know why you find it necessary too call me immature,ignorant,or thief but a wise man once said,quote"The man that angers you,controls you."

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If I were angry, I wouldn't be posting. I'm merely being direct with you, rather than rambling on about whatever pops up in the thread. We've given you fossil records, radiometric dating, and the ability to watch animals with shorter lifespans evolve over generations. You've given us: "God did it. It's all too complex not to be." I give you empirical evidence, which you supposedly know about, yet you give me squat. I'm just looking for some evidence of creationism that isn't some hoity toity lovey dubby answer of "look into your heart" or "god made it all because god is good, etc". Just a little proof, something at least partially testable, ya know? But if you're not going to play ball, like every other person I've asked this question to, then don't. Not my problem, but I at least like to ask, just in case there is some evidence out there that finally popped up for creationism. Nice to see there still isn't though.

By the way, I only called you those things when you claimed in a shorter terminology that science was the root of all evil because of your years in the service, which somehow also meant that evolution was wrong because of it. If you had been less outlandish about the subject and addressed it as you normally did, for its supposed faults, rather than its implications that you've generalized over, I wouldn't have made such statements.

And Pendragon, I haven't seen you claim you hated atheists, so yeah.. who knows where that came from, maybe your "tone" came off harsh or something. You do tend to have an odd sort of believe being espoused, which is hard to be certain of, since it looks sometimes like you disagree with evolution, but others like you don't. Guess you're just more capable of taking both sides at once than I.

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Originally Posted by okmit

Easy partner--your getting much to excited.This is a rap fest that can only end in a hung jury due to a lack of evidence from ANY side!And contrary to what Ancestor thinks of me I dont hate anyone.Thats a mistake I made 35 years ago and will not repeat(learned behavior.)Back to the subject;I dont know why you find it necessary too call me immature,ignorant,or thief but a wise man once said,quote"The man that angers you,controls you."

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I apologize for the error I made and that it should have read: Why do you dislike the concept atheistism? I miss phrased myself and I do apologize to anyone that I may have offended I meant not to.

I personally have for most of life wondered about how life truly began on Earth. I often thought about the Bible's version of Adam and Eve along starting out as organic ooze. I may not know for sure which of the two is true but there is evidence of neanderthal's roaming the earth. All the skulls that have been found showing the differents stages of man is proof of evolution taking place. Since I do believe in a higher being I do not see why we could not have started out as a creation which evolved through out time. Surely we must have evolved to meet the changing elements of the Earth. The Earth has also evolved since the creation of Earth and so why wouldn't we. I apologize if I went over the same things but this has me heated and I tend to repeat myself. I here out curiousity but I see that some of us and I won't name names are taking this way too seriously. I have enjoy reading others theories and belief's and it truly has helped me to grow.

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This quoted from this webpage-Prominent Hominid Fossils
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/specimen.html

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/taung_small.gif
"Taung Child", Australopithecus africanus
Discovered by Raymond Dart in 1924 at Taung in South Africa (Dart 1925). The find consisted of a full face, teeth and jaws, and an endocranial cast of the brain. It is between 2 and 3 million years old, but it and most other South African fossils are found in cave deposits that are difficult to date. The teeth of this skull showed it to be from an infant about 5 or 6 years old (it is now believed that australopithecines matured faster than humans, and that the Taung child was about 3). The brain size was 410 cc, and would have been around 440 cc as an adult. The large rounded brain, canine teeth which were small and not apelike, and the position of the foramen magnum(*) convinced Dart that this was a bipedal human ancestor, which he named Australopithecus africanus (African southern ape). Although the discovery became famous, Dart's interpretation was rejected by the scientific community until the mid-1940's, following the discovery of other similar fossils.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/wt40000_small.jpg
KNM-WT 40000, Kenyanthropus platyops
Discovered by Justus Erus in 1999 at Lomekwi in Kenya (Leakey et al. 2001, Lieberman 2001). Estimated age is about 3.5 million years. This is a mostly complete, but heavily distorted, cranium with a large, flat face and small teeth. The brain size is similar to that of australopithecines. This fossil has considerable similarities with, and is possibly related to, the habiline fossil ER 1470.

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Here are two skulls that are examples that some kind of evolution took place and how similar we were to apes at the time. Note is does not prove Darwin's theory but it does not disprove it either.

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Originally Posted by Dyrwen

And Pendragon, I haven't seen you claim you hated atheists, so yeah.. who knows where that came from, maybe your "tone" came off harsh or something. You do tend to have an odd sort of believe being espoused, which is hard to be certain of, since it looks sometimes like you disagree with evolution, but others like you don't. Guess you're just more capable of taking both sides at once than I.

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Why hate someone for doing the same thing I'm doing, which is standing up for what they believe? Besides, if I say I believe the Bible, and then hate people, that doesn't scan right, ya know? I left a quote somewhere above from Thomas Jefferson. I guess people do think me strange, but I learned to read before I was 5. As we were dirt poor, and devoutly religious (somewhat fanatical wouldn't be too harsh) I read the Bible through many times. Then I began to ask questions, because I couldn't square the way people lived with what I read in the Bible. Needless to say, I soon got in hot water. As a teenager, I tried all kinds of philosophy and studied different religions (heresy to my church!) But the crux of it all was that after all the questions and searching, I came to belive the Bible--just not as my church preached it. Abraham Linclon once said that when a great man died, one man imitated the way he dressed, one the way he carried his sword, one his gait, and one his matter of speech, BUT NOT ONE TRIED TO BE THE GOOD MAN THAT HE WAS. That was the problem I found. People talk a good sermon but fail to LIVE a good sermon. Love must be unconditionial. I can call you "friend" and mean it, atheist or no, and talk to you without a lot of finger pointing and name calling. It's pointless anyway. You won't change me, and I'm unlikely to change you, but it can make a lively conversation! Take care, bud! Dragon out.

“I’ve been trying to think of an experiment to prove that there aren’t any hobgoblins at the bottom of my garden. It’s tricky, especially given that these hobgoblins may not be of material form. So, at the moment, I cannot prove or disprove that there are hobgoblins at the bottom of my garden. I don’t really think there are any, but that’s a position of faith, I suppose.”

(Ed Hollox, Guardian)

I am reminded of this little poem:

As I was walking up the stair,
I met a man who wasn't there.
He wasn't there again today.
I wish, I wish he'd go away.

~Hugh Mearns

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Originally Posted by okmit

Thank you for the pearl of wisdom--in my ignorance I thought it was due to human greed,and pomposity.The last Holy war I fought in was in Viet Nam--excuse me that one wasnt about religion.I was to young for the Korean crusade--no no,that one had nothing to do with religion either--the two world wars are exempt.But I'm sure your correct anyhow.I did have belief when I went that I could assist in stopping the "Domino Effect."That would be the Evil spread of Communism(common ownership of property.)Alas,after returning home(minus my right leg)my Gov. seized My Private Property and sold it for back taxes!!Draat,my faith and service to man failed me again.If you put your FAITH in man,your going too get screwd whether its a scientist,Governor,or a"holy man."
Thanks again,okmit

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Brrr, you've got an axe to grind obviously and one that certainly deserves a good grinding, but just because some wars aren't about religion doesn't mean they all aren't. You think holy wars are old hat, therefore not relevant? The people who blew up the Twin Towers may not have agreed with you.

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Originally Posted by atiguhya padma

“I’ve been trying to think of an experiment to prove that there aren’t any hobgoblins at the bottom of my garden. It’s tricky, especially given that these hobgoblins may not be of material form. So, at the moment, I cannot prove or disprove that there are hobgoblins at the bottom of my garden. I don’t really think there are any, but that’s a position of faith, I suppose.”

(Ed Hollox, Guardian)

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I think Wittgenstein once proved by logic to Betrand Russell that there was a hippopotamus in the room, though neither of them could see one.

Just because something cannot be seen doesn't mean that it never existed or could exist today. Yes it would be nice to have evidence you can see with your eyes and hold in your hand but that is not always going to be possible. I have had some experiences that I cannot prove by showing you but I know them to be true. What do you do? Just keep seeking and sooner or later you may find what you could not back then.

Dragons? Unicorns? Fairies? Trolls? and all other mythical beings?

btw, first dragon spotted is spoken for.

Some scientisits think there is evidence that the dragons really did exsist some kind of desendent of he dinasours, I think.

Ive been thinking about thi sthread for a while and though I havent acttally read most of the posts in it ( it got a bit complex for me and I sort of left it) so tell me if this has already been said but I Belive in creation. But it may not be as simple as GOd create ecverything just as it is prehaps He created evoloution which is why everything is constantly evolving. Does that make sense?

Recently I was reading (havent finished it yet though) The maddness of Adam and Eve: How scizophrinia shaped humanity In the book the author puts forward the theory on the evloution of human intelligance as down to the genetic mutation that allows us to become schizophrenic.
Sorry this is a bit random and not thought through properly :blush:

Edit: I see I seem to be repeating Ansestor's ideas But yes that is exactly it If we all evolved from somthing where did that somthing come from?? My opioin is Creation but since we cant exactlly repeat it in experimental conditions And observe right from the begining when there was Nothing I suppose we can never know factually for sure. Im sure there is a theory that says the act of observing somthing changes it, anybody know what Im on about??

Guess then we should begin a Dragon fossil hunt and look for unicorns, trolls, and any other fable creature ever thought of. Point is anything could have existed and gone existinct long before you or I was born. The adventure is seeking the evidence along with this discussion. :D

Yes but I think they think they found one a dragon fssisl that is.

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Originally Posted by blp

I think Wittgenstein once proved by logic to Betrand Russell that there was a hippopotamus in the room, though neither of them could see one.

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BLB, my friend, I'm not trying to start another argument, just trying to see things from another's POV. Now, if a person could prove, by logic, that something existed where nothing was apparent, why do we even argue the existence of God? Just asking.]

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Originally Posted by atiguhya padma

“I’ve been trying to think of an experiment to prove that there aren’t any hobgoblins at the bottom of my garden. It’s tricky, especially given that these hobgoblins may not be of material form. So, at the moment, I cannot prove or disprove that there are hobgoblins at the bottom of my garden. I don’t really think there are any, but that’s a position of faith, I suppose.”

(Ed Hollox, Guardian)

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It appears Ed is an organic gardener that hasn't placed his faith in scientists and placed the hobgoblins,DDT--paraquot--diazinon etc.in the soil!
"Their are some folks that learn by reading,and some by listening,all the rest have too pee on an electric fence and find out for themselves." Will Rogers

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Originally Posted by blp

Brrr, you've got an axe to grind obviously and one that certainly deserves a good grinding, but just because some wars aren't about religion doesn't mean they all aren't. You think holy wars are old hat, therefore not relevant? The people who blew up the Twin Towers may not have agreed with you.

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Killing in the name of God is incongruous.
from the AP--" The man described as fugitive bombmaker Mohammed Deif,described Israel's withdrawl frome the Gaza Strip as a victory for ARMED Resistance,rejected calls for HIS group to disarm,and VOWED to continue attacks on Israel untill the Jewish state is erased from the map."
Would you say this is for God's sake,or Deif's?

Terrorism is based on modern secular modes of "mans self authorization,and not on the teachings of the Quran."Pope Benedict

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Originally Posted by blp

Pendragon, the problem I have with your position is that Darwin's theory is built around randomness. Just to spell it out for those not clear about it, the process of natural selection is the process by which some of the millions of mutations that happen to organisms for no reason at all, by accident, survive because they render the organism more suited to its environment. Numerous other mutations occur that do not survive. This is what is meant by survival of the fittest - fitness for specific environments, not strength per se.

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BLP, it's me again. I guess by now, you think I'm your worst nightmare! I'm still musing over your POV, which is why it took me so long to answer this. The problem I have with randomness (chance) is the sheer mathmatics of it. My college prof. used to say, with his West Virginia wang, "In dealing with chance and probibility, you can run into a hellacious number really fast!" Understand his words, not mine. But if you wish to prove it, a standard deck of cards and four friends. Play Texas Hold-em. What are the chances that you get two aces? On the first deal, one in 13. But on the second deal other factors enter. For one only 48 cards are left. Only 3 aces are. That's assuming you got one on the first deal, and that no one else did. Giving you that, you now have a 3 out of 48 chance of getting that other ace. But wait. To get your chances, you MULTIPLY the two fractions. That comes out to 3 out of 624. And we haven't even factored in the other probabilities, (such as what if one or two others get a ace?!) Make it harder. Try getting the first one red, the second black. Even harder: First a heart, second a spade. Mathmatics takes chance and makes it unlikely. I'm not the only one not to belive in coincidence. Jung published work on the subject. So I'm not being relious nut here, just viewing from another POV, based on.....science

being an atheist i have never understood how you cannot see even with some scientist sitting there waving the facts in your face that the bible is WRONG there may well be a god but he did not make man individually he did not make anything the reason this argument is still raging isbecause many people cant understand that not all things had a beggining, for if the universe never began but just was and always will be there there is no longer the argument the matter was just there and it always has been you did not need a god to create it. Therefore in the universe with an infinity of probabilities it is bound to happen that life is formed and from that life other lifeforms evolve and from them others. I cant see why this is still happening WHY cant people just think for a moment.


this has not been researched but is the feelings of a 15 year-old boy.

dejosc, Ockam's Razor tends to agree with your feelings in that "the simplest answer is most often the most probable" in that there is one universe and because there is life in it, that demonstrates a probability that life can occur randomly in such a wide vastness of space, even if it isn't that high a probability. Evolution has been shown to occur and life hasn't been regulated to "God created" by the world's scientific minds, so the probability of such things occurring remains at 1 until all life ceases. In any case, some people prefer to have a god as their creator, rather than the most useful and beautiful universe itself.

Love the turtle avatar, btw. It's turtles, all the way down...

In Posting on this forum, and expousing Creationism as a base, then Evolution from there on out (anyone can see that we are not one race as we would be if things hadn't changed since Eden!), I have received plenty of interesting reponse from my friends the Atheists, but none AT ALL from anyone who supposingly supports Creationism. Is this because of my statement that I question everything, including the existence of God (therefore strengthening my belief in Him), and things the Bible says (ditto)? Then allow me:

St. John 5:39 "Search the scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life; and they are they that testify of me." I John 4:1 "Beloved, belive not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false doctrines have gone out into the world." II Timothy 2:15 "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needth not be ashamed, rightly deviding the word of truth." St. Matthew 7:7 "Ask, and it shall be given unto you: seek, and ye shall find: knock, and it shall be opened unto you." Proverbs 18:13 "He that answereth a matter before he heareth [it], it [is] folly and shame unto him." NOTE: The word translated as "heareth" also translalates as "understands", which you cannot do unless you ask questions...

Now, am I a hypocrite because I question? Seems to me the scriptures tell me to do just that. You've heard the old saying, "You've got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything." As I said before "Blind faith is no faith. Ask yourself why you believe what you believe and don't be so narrow-minded. Oh, and one more scripture, for benefit of those atheist friends who got hate messages. I John 4:20 " If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?"

If any get mad at the scriptures, I didn't write them, I just quoted them. If you say you live by them and I stepped on your toes, wear steel toed boots or measured up to what you claim. Sermon over. Dragon out.

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Originally Posted by Pendragon

In Posting on this forum, and expousing Creationism as a base, then Evolution from there on out (anyone can see that we are not one race as we would be if things hadn't changed since Eden!), I have received plenty of interesting reponse from my friends the Atheists, but none AT ALL from anyone who supposingly supports Creationism. Is this because of my statement that I question everything, including the existence of God (therefore strengthening my belief in Him), and things the Bible says (ditto)? Then allow me:

St. John 5:39 "Search the scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life; and they are they that testify of me." I John 4:1 "Beloved, belive not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false doctrines have gone out into the world." II Timothy 2:15 "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needth not be ashamed, rightly deviding the word of truth." St. Matthew 7:7 "Ask, and it shall be given unto you: seek, and ye shall find: knock, and it shall be opened unto you." Proverbs 18:13 "He that answereth a matter before he heareth [it], it [is] folly and shame unto him." NOTE: The word translated as "heareth" also translalates as "understands", which you cannot do unless you ask questions...

Now, am I a hypocrite because I question? Seems to me the scriptures tell me to do just that. You've heard the old saying, "You've got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything." As I said before "Blind faith is no faith. Ask yourself why you believe what you believe and don't be so narrow-minded. Oh, and one more scripture, for benefit of those atheist friends who got hate messages. I John 4:20 " If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?"

If any get mad at the scriptures, I didn't write them, I just quoted them. If you say you live by them and I stepped on your toes, wear steel toed boots or measured up to what you claim. Sermon over. Dragon out.

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WOW!!!!
So good there huh!!You're not yet mad aren't you???I agree to you!!!I'm a bible believer and in a matter of ways you proved things right....They shouldn't be mad of the huge truth...it makes this sensible!! But I think you should have done things lightly so they don't have that crazy impact on you but still it's sooooooooo GOOD! :thumbs_up :thumbs_up :thumbs_up

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Besides, how do we know that God isn't a monkey, after all? Has anybody ever seen him?
[I know that man was made in God's image and all that, but some people really do look like monkeys :D ] Loki

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God isn't a monkey. neither is he like any other creatures his created. Man made him to be so. The Bible says He is a Spirit, the Great I AM.

Read this passage, you'll know what I mean:

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"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. " Romans 1:16-23

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God is a spirit:

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"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." Genesis 1:2

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And I don't think I've ever seen anyone look like this before: (see 1st attachment)

And I can imagine that Darwin would change his theory once he saw this: :lol: (see 2nd attachment)

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Originally Posted by Pendragon
In Posting on this forum, and expousing Creationism as a base, then Evolution from there on out (anyone can see that we are not one race as we would be if things hadn't changed since Eden!), I have received plenty of interesting reponse from my friends the Atheists, but none AT ALL from anyone who supposingly supports Creationism.

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If you care to look through the 32 pages or so, (which I doubt- then you must take my word for it ;) ) I have made the same statement before. :) I was asking those who voted creation for support, but not much came. heh... I'm glad you came along, though.... :thumbs_up :D

Ancestor said:

<I have had some experiences that I cannot prove by showing you but I know them to be true.>

What method did you use to determine they were true?

Like knowing that my sister had a infection causing her white blood cells to clot and that she would lose a leg before she went into the hospital two days later. I touched her foot and that was all it took for me to know something I never should have known. Another experience was when a woman hugged me and I knew she had terminal cancer throughout her entire body and that she had six months to live. Six months later I was informed that she had died of cancer and talk aobut blowing someone's mind away that did it. Now you tell me was those two experience's false? They came true later and at first I prayed that I was wrong about my sister but I was not. My mother asked if I knew she would lose her leg two days prior to the doctors discison to amputate. I knew and I told my mother what I knew. That is the only way I can determine that it is true or not.