D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

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Originally Posted by Quark

Alright, I've read the story. I actually thought it was much better than "White Stocking". This one is complex and filled with pathos--a lot of symbolism too. It should be a good discussion.

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Hi Quark, you are one step ahead of me. I have not read it yet, but will try to tonight. I would think it was a very good story, since it is suppose to be one of Lawrence's most acclaimed. Now you have my curiousity and I will have to read it.

I have been busy cleaning and guess what? I have found things I lost ages ago. Funny how that happens.:lol: Artists sure do accumulate a lot of stuff. I still do not have my new monitor connected, too tired out now, but definitely will do so tomorrow. Desk is ready now - clean as a whistle! That is just one corner and more must be done in the rest of the room, bathroom and bedroom - there is hope now; I better take advantage when I am in this mood.;) Seemed slow on here tonight anyway...probably the holiday weekend.

I hope to post something tomorrow. I know the story will be great. :thumbs_up

Today (revision), Monday update:

Hi Quark and everyone, I read the new story last night and liked it very much. Much to think about in that story and I will probably comment later or maybe even tonight. I would like to re-read the story and mark some passages that particularly impressed me.

Sorry, everyone, I am having some computer difficulties (really some annoying things to iron out with my new monitor and settings, and also need to go buy a new mouse) and will be back soon to start this story off. If anyone else wants to start it, feel free. Just trying to get this thread back on the first page.

I skimmed the story over the weekend. I need to re-read it before I feel comfortable discussing it. But I'm almost ready.

:eek2: Yes, Virgil - same with me. I read the Chekhov or actually reading it now - nearly done and I forget the Lawrence story so I will have to re-read it this weekend.
Hey, Virgil, you are an engineer with countless computer hightech devices. Any ideas on how I can fix the brightness setting on this monitor. I am having a horrible time with it. I keep squinting. The front of the monitor has 4 buttons - a 'e' auto button, < and > buttons and Menu button.... and there is a page of instructions only an engineer would understand on using this menu. I pushed the first one and got automatic settings but that seemed to do nothing. One of the menus (last button) pulls up a window with brightness and contrast bars, but there seems to be no way to move them or adjust them. Also, f I change the DPI on my computer, will that make my type the size as it was before hooking up this monitor - It shrunk some and is hard to see. Any ideas or suggestions I would greatly appreciate. Thanks! Janine
:eek2: :rage: :crash: computers!

I'm afraid I'm completely computer illiterate, Janine. I assume there are buttons on the monitor that control that. I bet you've tried that. Is this a new monitor? Perhaps it's broken. Is there a number to call?

Hahah -- you mean, Virgil, that obscure phone number they hide in the instruction booklet or the disc? I have not found it yet. I did get instructions from the kid at Staples on the button controls on the front panel, but I don't know if it still needs a driver from online - that is a possibility to function completely correctly. It is not as blinding today. No sunglasses needed! My son could not figure it out either but he was here in a whirl so he did not try very hard.
TV is out of the box - since my son stopped by. It looks good - brandnew and untampered with. Inner box was perfect. He will come and hook up for me later, hopefully today.
Did you read the Lawrence story again yet? I have not read it --- plan to do so on the weekend. Best I can do and hopefully post something on Monday.

Read Odour of the Chrysanthemum last night. Liked it very much. The story was emotional and striking. The part where Elizabeth's girl child asked her to smell the chrysanthemum but Lizzy said she no longer liked the smell, had a great effect on me. The emotions which arose in Elizabeth while seeing her husband's dead body were interesting, tinged with an unknown horror. I felt I had switched places with the protagonist (Elizabeth).

I like it when Lawrence's focuses over miners' houses.

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Originally Posted by Pensive

Read Odour of the Chrysanthemum last night. Liked it very much. The story was emotional and striking. The part where Elizabeth's girl child asked her to smell the chrysanthemum but Lizzy said she no longer liked the smell, had a great effect on me. The emotions which arose in Elizabeth while seeing her husband's dead body were interesting, tinged with an unknown horror. I felt I had switched places with the protagonist (Elizabeth).

I like it when Lawrence's focuses over miners' houses.

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Hi Pensive- so good to see you post. Glad you had read the story and liked it. I agree with all you said. I liked it very much too. Yes, I thought the same how Lawrence could make one feel the way that Elizabeth felt in such a situation. It was so well written and delved deeply below the surface of her emotional being. The part you mentioned with the smelling of the chysanthemuns seemed to me to be very significant.

I want to reread the story this weekend and then comment on Monday. I am so busy right now with some new electronics and hooking things up and making them run correctly.

Yes, this story relates well to Lawrence's own mother and father, although his father did not die, but he did have the serious accident in "Sons and Lovers", if you recall and his life was in danger daily, being a miner down in the pits. Mining stories were very personal to Lawrence.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Hi Pensive- so good to see you post. Glad you had read the story and liked it. I agree with all you said. I liked it very much too. Yes, I thought the same how Lawrence could make one feel the way that Elizabeth felt in such a situation. It was so well written and delved deeply below the surface of her emotional being. The part you mentioned with the smelling of the chysanthemuns seemed to me to be very significant.

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Yes, indeed. It gives a lot away about Elizabeth's thoughts/feelings for her husband.

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I want to reread the story this weekend and then comment on Monday. I am so busy right now with some new electronics and hooking things up and making them run correctly.

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Take your time. I can understand how it is like to be busy...

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Yes, this story relates well to Lawrence's own mother and father, although his father did not die, but he did have the serious accident in "Sons and Lovers", if you recall and his life was in danger daily, being a miner down in the pits.

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Yes, I remember that incident very well plus Elizabeth also seems to resemble her mother in many ways and Elizabeth's husband his father. You are right, I can see now how Lawrence might have had got the inspiration of this story from his real life.

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Mining stories were very personal to Lawrence.

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And interesting for his readers. :p I for some unknown reason like mining stories a lot. Have read a couple of novels about it based on the area of Yorkshire (I think the mines were all around this area, right?), those were really interesting. It's a pity I have forgotten their title names. Would have liked to recommend them to you.

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Originally Posted by Pensive

Yes, indeed. It gives a lot away about Elizabeth's thoughts/feelings for her husband.

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Hi Pensive, sorry for not answering sooner. I went out for the day and had to buy a new mouse while I was at it. This one is driving me silly. I sure hope the new optical one wireless is easy to install. I am sick of installation headaches this week.
Yes, I do agree whole-heartedly about Elizabeth. Lawrence really does well in a story with depth such as this one and how conflicted people are feeling in a situation like Elizabeth is experiencing, when they bring her dead husband home. It is an amazing scene, I think.

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Take your time. I can understand how it is like to be busy...

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Thanks for all your patience with me this week; you are so thoughful and sweet. I have so many distractions presently I can't keep my mind on these threads. I really appreciate you telling me to take my time and also appreciate that you read the story when you are busy yourself preparing for school.

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Yes, I remember that incident very well plus Elizabeth also seems to resemble her mother in many ways and Elizabeth's husband his father. You are right, I can see now how Lawrence might have had got the inspiration of this story from his real life.

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I knew you would be able to relate it to "S & L's" right away. I think it is very reminiscent of his parents and how they felt about each other - also conflicted. I read something short in one of my commentary books that suggested they were the models for this story. When I get settled a bit I will scan it to post. It is quite interesting and insightful. Also, if you noticed the mother of the husband she is very characteristic of the Lawrence's faternal grandmother. I thought he depicted her well in the story. I think for a time they lived with her. Did they do so in the novel? I can't remember that now and need that re-reading desperately, planned for the fall, sometime soon.

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And interesting for his readers. :p I for some unknown reason like mining stories a lot. Have read a couple of novels about it based on the area of Yorkshire (I think the mines were all around this area, right?), those were really interesting. It's a pity I have forgotten their title names. Would have liked to recommend them to you.

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I like them, too. You should eventually read "Women in Love". The mining plays a big role in that story, as well, being the profession of the management of the mines by the Crich family - father and son, Gerald - Gerald is one of the main characters.
I like films about mining families and what they go through daily living with such danger.

Pensive - thought you would like these photos -- these in the area where Lawrence lived and wrote about - first is Brinsley Colliery and second is Brinsley Colliery Headstocks.
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...Colliery-1.jpg

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...Headstocks.jpg

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Originally Posted by Janine

Hi Pensive, sorry for not answering sooner. I went out for the day and had to buy a new mouse while I was at it. This one is driving me silly. I sure hope the new optical one wireless is easy to install. I am sick of installation headaches this week.

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I really hope your trouble with mouse would be over soon. Mine is also quite problematic but I had to open it and clean its inner side to make it better.

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Yes, I do agree whole-heartedly about Elizabeth. Lawrence really does well in a story with depth such as this one and how conflicted people are feeling in a situation like Elizabeth is experiencing, when they bring her dead husband home. It is an amazing scene, I think.

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Yes, it was sad but effective.

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Thanks for all your patience with me this week; you are so thoughful and sweet. I have so many distractions presently I can't keep my mind on these threads. I really appreciate you telling me to take my time and also appreciate that you read the story when you are busy yourself preparing for school.

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Oh no problem. I am actually sorry myself, busy with some ill health and school too so I hope you don't mind if I am a bit late. :(

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I knew you would be able to relate it to "S & L's" right away. I think it is very reminiscent of his parents and how they felt about each other - also conflicted. I read something short in one of my commentary books that suggested they were the models for this story. When I get settled a bit I will scan it to post. It is quite interesting and insightful. Also, if you noticed the mother of the husband she is very characteristic of the Lawrence's faternal grandmother. I thought he depicted her well in the story. I think for a time they lived with her. Did they do so in the novel? I can't remember that now and need that re-reading desperately, planned for the fall, sometime soon.

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You are right. Elizabeth especially resembles Lawrence's mother a lot. (from Sons and Lovers) I don't think the children ever lived with their grandmother in the book but maybe my memory is deceiving me (though I really hope it's not)!

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I like them, too. You should eventually read "Women in Love". The mining plays a big role in that story, as well, being the profession of the management of the mines by the Crich family - father and son, Gerald - Gerald is one of the main characters.
I like films about mining families and what they go through daily living with such danger.

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I, for sometime, followed its discussion on Forum Book Club and it really seemed interesting to me. Thanks for the recommendation. I would try it out if I ever get my hands on it... That's another book added into my reading list and I have already got so many! Had planned to read them in summer but couldn't (yes, a but). Ah poor us, how much we plan and how often those plans fail...

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Pensive - thought you would like these photos -- these in the area where Lawrence lived and wrote about - first is Brinsley Colliery and second is Brinsley Colliery Headstocks.
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...Colliery-1.jpg

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...Headstocks.jpg

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Thanks for posting the pictures, Janine. :) Your posts are informative.

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Originally Posted by Pensive

I really hope your trouble with mouse would be over soon. Mine is also quite problematic but I had to open it and clean its inner side to make it better.

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I took mine appart finally and cleaned it and it still sticks, so I went out and did buy a new Logitech cordless optical mouse - never needs cleaning or so they say. It is still in the bubble packaging and not plugged in yet. I am going to get to it today...hopefully. I had wondered if my son would appear with a few spare mouse(s?, mice? micekins?) he no longer needed - he said he had some. Had he had a nice optical one I would have returned this one but looks like now I will be keeping it. I could not deal with another electronic woe this week. I only got the right TV cables hooked up yesterday and then my son went off to work and to his house and he said the DVD remote setting are all messed up. He is going away for a few weeks so I have to adjust the TV itself....oh woe - headaches --- see what I mean?

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Yes, it was sad but effective.

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Absolutely...glad we agree.

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Oh no problem. I am actually sorry myself, busy with some ill health and school too so I hope you don't mind if I am a bit late. :(

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Oh sweet understanding, Pensy, thanks so much for being so patient with me. I am sorry about ill health - hope it is nothing serious. I knew school must be starting soon and that will have to be your first concern as well. Maybe we should just get this story going in October and not worry now with it. Take your time to come back to it. I have to read it again anyway and I don't think Virgil read it yet either and he wanted to participate. Also he found 3 new Lawrence enthusiasts and I will attempt to recruit them for the discussion (I will tell them the story starts in October - what do you think of that idea?)

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You are right. Elizabeth especially resembles Lawrence's mother a lot. (from Sons and Lovers) I don't think the children ever lived with their grandmother in the book but maybe my memory is deceiving me (though I really hope it's not)!

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So funny, I recently saw the film version and the mother seemed to live a time with the family. That might be all wrong but the characterization of her seemed accurate. I also read things about Lawrence's real grandfather and grandmother on the mother's side and also the father's side and so it seemed like the woman mentioned - the dead man's mother - was fashioned after Lawrence's real grandmother. I, too, do not recall it being so in the book with her living with the family, but several of us on Lit Net plan on reading/discussing it soon so I will re-read and find out - right? Will you enter into that discussion of "Sons and Lovers"? It should be a good one and you will be ahead since you read it recently enough.

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I, for sometime, followed its discussion on Forum Book Club and it really seemed interesting to me. Thanks for the recommendation. I would try it out if I ever get my hands on it... That's another book added into my reading list and I have already got so many! Had planned to read them in summer but couldn't (yes, a but). Ah poor us, how much we plan and how often those plans fail...

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The one on here or another forum? The one on here was quite intense and involved --- I of course loved it!:thumbs_up everyone!

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Thanks for posting the pictures, Janine. :) Your posts are informative.

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Well, you are welcome. I have so many books on L now I love sharing them with you and others. I love the photos. Seems several of my books have ones I don't find online and some online are new to me also. I love digging up Lawrence photos and related articles. I suppose now it is a life pursuit with me. Someday I may qualify as a Lawrence scholar - who knows.

Oh gosh Janine I've completely forgotten about the story! Hmm...seems like work today will be rather slow, hopefully I can pick it up today or sometime soon. The story is for all of september right?

Counfounded stupid busy schedule....grrrrr....need to get my reading done before school!!!! arrgggh. :flare:

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Originally Posted by grace86

Oh gosh Janine I've completely forgotten about the story! Hmm...seems like work today will be rather slow, hopefully I can pick it up today or sometime soon. The story is for all of september right?

Counfounded stupid busy schedule....grrrrr....need to get my reading done before school!!!! arrgggh. :flare:

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Grace, now I am thinking we should just make it for next month - this month is flying by. What do you think of this idea? I was waiting to hear from Pensy to see what she thought. Same story though. Go ahead and read the story and then you will be one step ahead, if we delay it a bit. I don't think Virgil read it yet either. He had wanted to participate and so did Quark. We all seemed to get so busy this month.

I agree. This month is bad for me. I'm hoping on October being better.

I have no problem with waiting a few weeks to discuss the story. It might be better if we delay until everyone has read it and gathered their thoughts. Hopefully, during the pause we could pick up a few more Lawrence fans, too.

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Originally Posted by Quark

I have no problem with waiting a few weeks to discuss the story. It might be better if we delay until everyone has read it and gathered their thoughts. Hopefully, during the pause we could pick up a few more Lawrence fans, too.

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Hi Quark, definitely we hope to do so. Several people posted in a thread saying how much they enjoyed Lawrence's style and writing. I will email them directly, as you did in for the Chekhov thread, and try and get them to join in with the short story and maybe "Sons and Lovers" when we read that.

Glad you agree to delay would be the best policy here. I have also had some health issues recently, which I am looking into; saw my doctor yesterday infact and will have some tests soon...no big deal.

Also, Quark, I am sorry I have not been so active in the Chekhov thread as I hoped to be. I hope if I get these health problems resolved, I can be more active.

Virgil, glad you agree, too. I know you have been super busy and now need the time to go see your mother as she is recovering. You can't be worrying about this thread this month. This thread can sit a few weeks.

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Originally Posted by Janine

I have also had some health issues recently, which I am looking into; saw my doctor yesterday infact and will have some tests soon

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Health issues? That sounds scary.

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Originally Posted by Quark

Health issues? That sounds scary.

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Well, not as scary as a pain...literally. I do have some chronic ailments and IBS, but that has gotten way worse lately, so I am having things checked out more closely. I just could not keep my concentration for now on Lit Net. I am hoping these tests reveal something that can be easily treated. Don't worry. I seem to be a person who develops chronic annoying, not terminal condtions and many are hereditary, unfortunately - darn those genes! I have survived a lot in the past years and I will survive this too.

So if we could delay this thread till October it would be much better for me. Thanks for understanding everyone....J

Yeah I could wait until October...hopefully then...I've managed to enroll in a Shakespeare's Tragedies lit class this quarter, I have no clue how that is going to be. But I am all up for October. I can read the story at a longer pace.

Janine are you guys planning on reading Sons and Lovers? When...what about book club? Oh and Virgil I've also not finished Don Quixote :( . Guess we're all pretty busy.

Janine I hope your tests go okay and Virgil my prayers are with you and your family.

Sure, if everyone else wants to read it in October, I can wait. :) Nice to hear Virgil has found some other people interested in Lawrence's works too.

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Originally Posted by grace86

Yeah I could wait until October...hopefully then...I've managed to enroll in a Shakespeare's Tragedies lit class this quarter, I have no clue how that is going to be. But I am all up for October. I can read the story at a longer pace.

Janine are you guys planning on reading Sons and Lovers? When...what about book club? Oh and Virgil I've also not finished Don Quixote :( . Guess we're all pretty busy.

Janine I hope your tests go okay and Virgil my prayers are with you and your family.

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Grace, thanks for waiting, then. We can all take a breather. Your classes will start soon and I know you will be plenty busy. Same with Pensive. I don't know how you girls do it all. I guess you have that 'young energy'.

Yes, Virgil has my prayers too, for him and his family. I have told him so already in his blog and PM's. He said he probably would not be online for 4 days or so. We will miss him greatly. Hope his 10 hr drive went well and safely.

Grace, I have been thinking that - you and Virgil did not finish DQ - would be a shame not to. Virgil said he stopped at one book and there are two. I guess that would be ok, but don't delay too long, or you might forget what was in book #1. At least I would.
Yes, don't you recall us just saying back aways that we would all read "Sons and Lovers" in the fall. Quark said he was interested, too and some others, as well. Virgil said I have to be the recruiter of the Lawrence enthusiastists. I have more L books now, than him...:lol:;) Realistically, not sure we can do both novels before the new year - "Sons and Lovers" and then "Lady Chatterly's Lover". In my opinion we should just play it by ear and see how the first novel goes. No, it is not the official book read. I think they only do one author a year and WIL was for Lawrence this year. We would be doing S & L's strickly on our own, by making up a thread.

Hey, Grace, Wonderful getting the class! Shakespeare tragedies are practically my favorite thing! well....except maybe for L books, but maybe... actually... they are running parallel....they are quite different enough...like a different genre. I have seen the film version of "Hamlet" and several other versions and listened to the audio tapes dozens and dozens of times. I can nearly quote lines now - something I am not particularly good at doing usually. I love the tragedies the best and some of the histories as well, since they border on tragedies. I adore the film and the play - "Henry V" and I don't even like war particularly or the concept of it, but it is still amazing and so intense and profound. My favorite scene is in the camp at night when Henry (King Hal)recites his long solioquy about the responsibility and the weight (burden) of being a king. I nearly weep at that scene everytime. Kenneth Branagh's film is amazing and when he lowers his head and one single tear rolls down his left cheek, I feel so touched by that, I can hardly bear it. It is perfect.
"Richard III" is bordering on tragedy and it is such a complex and fascinating play. Bye the way, the film "Finding Richard" by Al Pacino is so interesting and funny, too! He walks through Manhattan asking people about Shakespeare and what they think of his works. Some answers are pretty hilarious. Then they do exerpts of the play - Pacino actually plays a pretty good and convincing Richard. I was amazed. I own only the tape - very hard to get. It is a play with much conniving and treachery much like Othello, Richard being like Iago in his covert actions and sinister plans. Great stuff!

Ok, back to the true tragedies - believe it or not last night I was watching "Othello" - one of the tragedies...one of my favorites! I love that film by Parker. I have watched it countless times, but this time I was seeing it on my new LCD HD TV and it is phenonmenal color and clarity. I was in seventh heaven. I have the soundtrack too which is so neat. I play it all the time.
I also, like others of the tradedies. Guess I am just a tragic type reader.;)
I had a Shakespeare class in college many many moons ago. Wow, Grace, I wish I could fly out and go to your class with you. I loved that class!

Pensive, so glad you are in agreement to about delaying till October. You are so sweet and understanding. I want to re-read the story before then, anyway. I think that two readings always benefits me in discussing the story. I seem to pick up on things I had previously skipped over or not noticed just how significant they could be.

We can always, just loosely (randomly), visit this thread until we officially start the discussion.

OK, Gang - listen up! I am back now thinking about the short story and also about starting the thread for the book read and discussion of "Sons and Lovers". I will try doing that today to begin this month and most likely that will extend into next month, too. For now though I want to resume this short story as soon as we possibly can. If you can participate - great! I know some of you are busy now with school work so I will understand if you have to skip this one. I read the story once but now will review it in more depth and begin - hopefully I will post something tonight or tomorrow to get things rolling.

Odour of Chrysanthamums


Happy reading!.....your leader....hahaha!;) :lol:

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Originally Posted by Janine

OK, Gang - listen up! I am back now thinking about the short story and also about starting the thread for the book read and discussion of "Sons and Lovers". I will try doing that today to begin this month and most likely that will extend into next month, too. For now though I want to resume this short story as soon as we possibly can. If you can participate - great! I know some of you are busy now with school work so I will understand if you have to skip this one. I read the story once but now will review it in more depth and begin - hopefully I will post something tonight or tomorrow to get things rolling.

Odour of Chrysanthamums


Happy reading!.....your leader....hahaha!;) :lol:

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*Salutes* Yes Ma'am. ;) I'll read it over the weekend.

Virgil, I have been emailing everyone about the "Sons and Lovers" thread and this thread as well. I emailed those in "book you are recently reading" thread (think that is the title) and we may get some new recruits. This coming month should be hopping! Weekend reading of 'O of C' should be great - we can start discussing on Monday. Thanks for pointing out to me the new L enthusiasts!:thumbs_up

I found this commentary today in one of my numerous Lawrence books. It is from the book entitled: The Early Fiction of D.H.Lawrence by Michael Black

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TWO EARLY STORIES

Many of Lawrence’s early stories are centered on the Nottinghamshire mining districts of his childhood, but the best of them – notably Odour of Chrysanthemums and Daughter of the Vica –are much more than sketches of working-class life or mere surplus material from Sons and Lovers. Odour of Chrysanthemums in par&#172;ticular must rate as a masterpiece, and it is astonishing that Lawrence should have had the skill even at this time (the story may have been written as early as 1908, and was published in 19II) to write stories such as this, for the style and technique of the two early full-length novels contemporary with it are much less masterly. There is a well-known story, but one which bears repeating, of Ford Madox Ford's acceptance of the tale for publication in the English Review in 19II. Ford read only the first paragraph of Odour of Chrysanthamums, then immediately accepted it for publication:
You are ... for as long as the story lasts, to be in one of those untidy, unfinished landscapes where locomotives wander innocuously amongst women with baskets. That is to say, you are going to learn how what we used to call 'the other half'-though we might as well have said the other ninety-nine hundredths-lives. And if you are an editor and that is what you are after, you know that you have got what you want and you can pitch the story straight away into your wicker tray with the few accepted manuscripts and go on to some other occupation ... Because this man knows. He knows how to open a story with a sentence of the right cadence for holding the attention. He knows how to construct a paragraph. He knows the life he is writing about in a landscape just sufficiently constructed with a casual word here and there. You can trust him for the rest.
THE BODLEY HEAD FORD MADOX FORD, Vol. 1. p. 323

One drawback to this anecdote is that its widespread currency has tended to focus the reader's admiration on to the opening paragraph rather than on to the tale as a whole. What is needed also is to emphasise the fact that the usual Lawrentian contrast between nature and industry is well made in the opening section of the story, for it is the unpleasant atmosphere of the tainted world of nature which is most remarkably evoked. 'The fields were dreary and forsaken', and both the countryside and the mining cottage are spoilt by the onrush of industry:

"A large bony vine clutched at the house, as if to claw down the tiled roof. Round the brick yard grew a few wintry primroses.
Beyond, the long garden sloped down to a bush-covered brook course. There were some twiggy apple trees, winter-crack trees, chrysanthemums, like pink cloths hung on bushes."

THE COMPLETE SHORT STORIES, Vol. II, pp. 283-4

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There is much more to this commentary and I will post it periodically, as we go along in our discussion, when it applies to that part of the story.

Some initial impressions:

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The small locomotive engine, Number 4, came clanking, stumbling down from Selston--with seven full waggons. It appeared round the corner with loud threats of speed, but the colt that it startled from among the gorse, which still flickered indistinctly in the raw afternoon, outdistanced it at a canter. A woman, walking up the railway line to Underwood, drew back into the hedge, held her basket aside, and watched the footplate of the engine advancing. The trucks thumped heavily past, one by one, with slow inevitable movement, as she stood insignificantly trapped between the jolting black waggons and the hedge; then they curved away towards the coppice where the withered oak leaves dropped noiselessly, while the birds, pulling at the scarlet hips beside the track, made off into the dusk that had already crept into the spinney. In the open, the smoke from the engine sank and cleaved to the rough grass. The fields were dreary and forsaken, and in the marshy strip that led to the whimsey, a reedy pit-pond, the fowls had already abandoned their run among the alders, to roost in the tarred fowl-house. The pit-bank loomed up beyond the pond, flames like red sores licking its ashy sides, in the afternoon's stagnant light. Just beyond rose the tapering chimneys and the clumsy black head-stocks of Brinsley Colliery. The two wheels were spinning fast up against the sky, and the winding-engine rapped out its little spasms. The miners were being turned up.

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Once again Lawrence has presented his story with opening lines that paint a definite atmosphere of the encroaching invasion of the coal industry in the area in which he lived, a theme that would resurface time and time again in his work. This “dreary and forsaken” area of fields and “the pit-pond that fowls had already abandoned”, along with the fact that the pit “loomed up beyond the pond, flames like red sores licking it’s ashy sides, in the afternoon’s stagnant light” add scope to this dismal. yet curiously fascinating, opening paragraph. This definitely sets the tone of the story to follow. A few pages earlier in this thread I posted some photos of the colliery and the mine area.
Also, of interest in this paragraph, is the mention of the colt: “It appeared round the corner with loud threats of speed, but the colt that it startled from among the gorse, which still flickered indistinctly in the raw afternoon, outdistanced it at a canter.” Is Lawrence looking at progress but seeing the old world outdistancing technology? The horse reminded me of the later horse scene in “Women in Love”, when actually the Arabian horse, is so frightened of the train and Gerald forces the mare to stay close to the tracks. Both are quite different in concept, but interesting to note that a horse is used in both stories in conjuncition with the train, and contrast nature and the man-made devices for travel.
The woman is also drawn back into the hedge…”trapped between the jolting black wagons and the hedge” – a start contrast of nature and the threatening noisy engine and train, that will soon take over the countryside and the natural beauty of the area.

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Originally Posted by Janine

This “dreary and forsaken” area of fields and “the pit-pond that fowls had already abandoned”, along with the fact that the pit “loomed up beyond the pond, flames like red sores licking it’s ashy sides, in the afternoon’s stagnant light” add scope to this dismal. yet curiously fascinating, opening paragraph. This definitely sets the tone of the story to follow. A few pages earlier in this thread I posted some photos of the colliery and the mine area.

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Interesting about the flames. Burning seems to be a motif through the story. Notice how man times it comes up. Later in part I:

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The kitchen was small and full of firelight; red coals piled glowing up the chimney mouth. All the life of the room seemed in the white, warm hearth and the steel fender reflecting the red fire.

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Indoors the fire was sinking and the room was dark red.

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She went out. As she dropped piece after piece of coal on the red fire, the shadows fell on the walls, till the room was almost in total darkness.

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"Goodness me!" exclaimed the woman, relieved. "One would think the house was afire." She replaced the glass and waited a moment before turning up the wick. A pale shadow was seen floating vaguely on the floor.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Interesting about the flames. Burning seems to be a motif through the story. Notice how man times it comes up. Later in part I:

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Virgil, hummm, that is interesting. I had not thought of it in that way; these various images seem to have a connection, at least in the mind of the author. I wonder if it could be the beginning of Lawrence's thinking on rebirth of the Phoenix and a hint of death and the afterlife that rises from the ashes. I might be way off but thought it was an interesting thought. Maybe it is just unconscious in L's mind at this time;) :lol: Also, wouldn't the flames be reminescent of the mines and the coal burning? I recall distinctly reading in "Sea and Sardina" a passage about Lawrence and Frieda sitting and gazing into a big open fireplace at one stop on their journeys. The flames were described quite specifically and seemed to take on great significance for Lawrence. The whole scene took up several pages and L made it very interesting to read.

To Janine: I'm not trying to interlope into this discussionn; not familiar with the work at all. But I was almost at the end of the other Lawrence (the Letters of T.E.Lawrence) and he and George Bernard Shaw were discussing who did first lines of novels and stories the best. D.H.L. was one of thier top choices. quasi

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Originally Posted by quasimodo1

To Janine: I'm not trying to interlope into this discussionn; not familiar with the work at all. But I was almost at the end of the other Lawrence (the Letters of T.E.Lawrence) and he and George Bernard Shaw were discussing who did first lines of novels and stories the best. D.H.L. was one of thier top choices. quasi

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Hi Quasi, Yeah! I would have to agree whole-heartedly with that! Pretty brilliant opening to this short story, don't you think?

Quasi, I think of Shakespeare's first line from Richard III: "It was the winter of our discontent....."
This would have to be one of the greatest in history...but then again, that is a play, not a novel or short story.

Sorry getting off the beaten track of the 'Chrysanthamum' story. Am I the only one discussing the short story? Where is everybody?
Does anyone have any additional thoughts on Virgil's post about the use of images of fire or flames, etc. I also noticed the mention of these images in the second chapter of "Sons and Lovers", in which I re-thought their significance, now that Virgil has pointed them out in this story. I know many of you are reading both, so thought I would mention it here.
Another thought I had was that later Lawrence was concerned with his 'blood philosophy' and fire is the color of blood and also the firely sunsets, he often mentions, remind me of blood. Could there be a connection, even subconsiously in Lawrence's mind?

Actually let me flesh out that observation. Throughout part I I see two motifs running, the motif of the fire and the motif of the Chrysanthamums. First the fire. I pointed out several occurances. Let me highlight the ones that are most suggestive:

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The kitchen was small and full of firelight; red coals piled glowing up the chimney mouth. All the life of the room seemed in the white, warm hearth and the steel fender reflecting the red fire

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.
and

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Indoors the fire was sinking and the room was dark red. The woman put her saucepan on the hob, and set a batter pudding near the mouth of the oven.

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and

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They sat down to tea. John, at the end of the table near the door, was almost lost in the darkness. Their faces were hidden from each other. The girl crouched against the fender slowly moving a thick piece of bread before the fire. The lad, his face a dusky mark on the shadow, sat watching her who was transfigured in the red glow.

"I do think it's beautiful to look in the fire," said the child.

"Do you?" said her mother. "Why?"

"It's so red, and full of little caves--and it feels so nice, and you can fair smell it."

"It'll want mending directly," replied her mother, "and then if your father comes he'll carry on and say there never is a fire when a man comes home sweating from the pit.--A public-house is always warm enough."

There was silence till the boy said complainingly: "Make haste, our Annie."

"Well, I am doing! I can't make the fire do it no faster, can I?"

"She keeps wafflin' it about so's to make 'er slow," grumbled the boy.

"Don't have such an evil imagination, child," replied the mother.

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A number of things here. The fire is associated with domesticity, the kitchen, the hearth, sitting around the table, mother and children waiting for father. Second it provides nourshment, tea and bread are warmed by it. Nourishment is the heart of family, and they are "transfigured" by it. Now this is an early Lawrence story, so the word "transfigure" (as you can see it comes up repeatedly in Lawrence's works) does not yet carry the same religious weight that occurs in the later Lawrence stories. Nonetheless it shows the power of the hearth fire. Third, the fire is symbolic for life. From the very first quote I presented here: "All the life of the room seemed in the white, warm hearth and the steel fender reflecting the red fire." The fire is what holds life together and is also symbolic for life burning on. As those who have completed the story know, the fire of the father's life has run out. Something else too. The mother is outraged at what she perceives as her husband whittling his time away at a bar drinking:

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Soon the room was busy in the darkness with the crisp sound of crunching. The mother ate very little. She drank her tea determinedly, and sat thinking. When she rose her anger was evident in the stern unbending of her head. She looked at the pudding in the fender, and broke out:

"It is a scandalous thing as a man can't even come home to his dinner! If it's crozzled up to a cinder I don't see why I should care. Past his very door he goes to get to a public-house, and here I sit with his dinner waiting for him--"

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This is a domestic crisis, the husband coming home drunk and wasting his money away in drink. But the irony that runs through here is that it will be an even greater domestic crisis than is at first perceived. A dead husband is one who cannot take care of the family. The fire in the hearth does not burn from fire wood, but from coals. As a miner, the father brings home coals to provide nourishment to the family. Some of you have commented on the ugly industrialism versus nature element in the story. I personally don't feel that this is the theme of the story. This story to me is a story of realism, of work and family and death. The description of the mining town isn't tinged with moral imperative, but as a realistic setting to the story.

Now to the Chrysanthamums.

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Beside the path hung dishevelled pink chrysanthemums, like pink cloths hung on bushes. A woman came stooping out of the felt-covered fowl-house, half-way down the garden. She closed and padlocked the door, then drew herself erect, having brushed some bits from her white apron.

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and

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As they went slowly towards the house he tore at the ragged wisps of chrysanthemums and dropped the petals in handfuls along the path.

"Don't do that--it does look nasty," said his mother. He refrained, and she, suddenly pitiful, broke off a twig with three or four wan flowers and held them against her face. When mother and son reached the yard her hand hesitated, and instead of laying the flower aside, she pushed it in her apron-band. The mother and son stood at the foot of the three steps looking across the bay of lines at the passing home of the miners. The trundle of the small train was imminent. Suddenly the engine loomed past the house and came to a stop opposite the gate.

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and

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Nevertheless she took a paper spill from a sheaf on the mantelpiece and proceeded to light the lamp that hung from the ceiling in the middle of the room. As she reached up, her figure displayed itself just rounding with maternity.

"Oh, mother--!" exclaimed the girl.

"What?" said the woman, suspended in the act of putting the lamp glass over the flame. The copper reflector shone handsomely on her, as she stood with uplifted arm, turning to face her daughter.

"You've got a flower in your apron!" said the child, in a little rapture at this unusual event.

"Goodness me!" exclaimed the woman, relieved. "One would think the house was afire." She replaced the glass and waited a moment before turning up the wick. A pale shadow was seen floating vaguely on the floor.

"Let me smell!" said the child, still rapturously, coming forward and putting her face to her mother's waist.

"Go along, silly!" said the mother, turning up the lamp. The light revealed their suspense so that the woman felt it almost unbearable. Annie was still bending at her waist. Irritably, the mother took the flowers out from her apron-band.

"Oh, mother--don't take them out!" Annie cried, catching her hand and trying to replace the sprig.

"Such nonsense!" said the mother, turning away. The child put the pale chrysanthemums to her lips, murmuring:

"Don't they smell beautiful!"

Her mother gave a short laugh.

"No," she said, "not to me. It was chrysanthemums when I married him, and chrysanthemums when you were born, and the first time they ever brought him home drunk, he'd got brown chrysanthemums in his button-hole."

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Chrysanthemums are a flower that blossom in the fall and are associated with death. We put mums in front of tombstones in the fall. The bright Mum flower will foreshadow the bright dead body of the father when it is brought home. The breaking of the flowers into petals accentuates the death association. Interesting how the mother exclaims, "One would think the house was afire," when the daughter spots a broken flower in her apron. But more importantly is this statement by the mother:

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"It was chrysanthemums when I married him, and chrysanthemums when you were born, and the first time they ever brought him home drunk, he'd got brown chrysanthemums in his button-hole."

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And we ironically can finish that statement with "it was chrysanthemums when he died." Something that confuses me, though. I have planted Chysanthemums and every time I do or come across them, I sniff them only to find they have no odor or scent of any kind. I always think of this story when I do. Am I wrong in assuming that Mums don't have a scent or is it just the ones here in New York? Do Mums in England have any scent?

Nonetheless we see the two symbols interweaved in part I.

Interesting point, Virgil. The short story seems to be having something to do with fire. A silly thought it might be, but can't the fire be taken as a symbol for life? Warmth has been mostly associated with the possibility of life.

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"I do think it's beautiful to look in the fire," said the child.

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Child is viewing life optimistically.

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"Do you?" said her mother. "Why?"

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Mother doesn't seem to be happy with her life.

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"It's so red, and full of little caves--and it feels so nice, and you can fair smell it."

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Again, a positive idea of fire/life.

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"It'll want mending directly," replied her mother, "and then if your father comes he'll carry on and say there never is a fire when a man comes home sweating from the pit.--A public-house is always warm enough."

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The father doesn't find life in house really 'worth' or doesn't really call it 'living' and 'life' (fire) exists from there in the pub?

Again, my idea might be a bit silly but can't help expressing it.

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This story to me is a story of realism, of work and family and death. The description of the mining town isn't tinged with moral imperative, but as a realistic setting to the story.

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Yes, looks the same to me.

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Originally Posted by Pensive

Interesting point, Virgil. The short story seems to be having something to do with fire. A silly thought it might be, but can't the fire be taken as a symbol for life? Warmth has been mostly associated with the possibility of life.

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Yes, Pensy. I thought I said that in my post. Perhaps I was not clear.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Yes, Pensy. I thought I said that in my post. Perhaps I was not clear.

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Read the posts in a bit of hurry (there was so much to catch up with), am afraid I missed your third point which I have just seen now. :blush: Am glad you bring it up too and what-I-thought-was-my-idea doesn't seem to be that silly now when there are people sharing the same views. Or else would all of us be silly and company is a great comfort. :p

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Originally Posted by Pensive

Read the posts in a bit of hurry (there was so much to catch up with), am afraid I missed your third point which I have just seen now. :blush: Am glad you bring it up too and what-I-thought-was-my-idea doesn't seem to be that silly now when there are people sharing the same views. Or else would all of us be silly and company is a great comfort. :p

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That's ok Pensy. I think we're on to something.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Actually let me flesh out that observation. Throughout part I I see two motifs running, the motif of the fire and the motif of the Chrysanthamums. First the fire. I pointed out several occurances.

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First off, I think your post is excellent and covers a lot of ground here. You are right in correcting me and pointing out the good/positive/nourishing associations with the pit and this mining way of life. Yes, the fire seems to take on various reflections of how the family feels - Pensive has now mentioned this thought and I agree with both of you - and it is the 'nourishment, tea and bread that are warmed by the hearth'. Life, then, did revolve greatly around the kitchen table and especially the hearth. In some ways it was the center or heart of the family and it's flames were as the beating of that life giving fire. Interesting now to think of this fire in many contexts since I have been reading "The Plumed Serpent" and earlier on I read something in a biography or a critical review book about Lawrence's fascination with the red paint that the Indians used on their skin during their dances. This was just mentioned in the book and I recall that it had connections to fire and to the sun and that Lawrence felt life came from the sun and the heavens. I realise that back when O of C was written and S & L, as well he had not totally explored this idea but it is quite curious to see it so early one crop up in his writing and be a prominent image throughout. I think this is what fascinated me about studying Lawrence and his work. It is wonderous to see the development of such a genius mind and his sensitivity to these aspects of everyday life. They take on new and varied meanings.

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A number of things here. The fire is associated with domesticity, the kitchen, the hearth, sitting around the table, mother and children waiting for father. Second it provides nourshment, tea and bread are warmed by it. Nourishment is the heart of family, and they are "transfigured" by it. Now this is an early Lawrence story, so the word "transfigure" (as you can see it comes up repeatedly in Lawrence's works) does not yet carry the same religious weight that occurs in the later Lawrence stories. Nonetheless it shows the power of the hearth fire. Third, the fire is symbolic for life. From the very first quote I presented here: "All the life of the room seemed in the white, warm hearth and the steel fender reflecting the red fire." The fire is what holds life together and is also symbolic for life burning on. As those who have completed the story know, the fire of the father's life has run out. Something else too. The mother is outraged at what she perceives as her husband whittling his time away at a bar drinking:

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Yes, the word 'transfigure' appears to come up even in this early writing. It is new to Lawrence but it will take on it's full significance in later work - very true. Yes, the hearthfire does have 'power' - also a word or theme that will recur in later writings and be fully explored. The 'power of the hearth fire' is good and I agree. It draws the family together also, interesting that you add that it is 'symbolic for life burning on' and then by the end of the story his life ceases to burn. The fire it out. Interesting since there is a Shakespeare quote that says something like this (Henry V), when Henry sanctions the hanging of Bartolph (Bartoff) for stealing in a church in France. Fluellen says: "Hi face is all bubukles, whelks and knobs, and flames of fire; and his lips plow at his nose, and it is like a red coal of fire, sometimes blue and sometimes red; but his nose is executed and his fire is out."

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This is a domestic crisis, the husband coming home drunk and wasting his money away in drink. But the irony that runs through here is that it will be an even greater domestic crisis than is at first perceived. A dead husband is one who cannot take care of the family. The fire in the hearth does not burn from fire wood, but from coals. As a miner, the father brings home coals to provide nourishment to the family. Some of you have commented on the ugly industrialism versus nature element in the story. I personally don't feel that this is the theme of the story. This story to me is a story of realism, of work and family and death. The description of the mining town isn't tinged with moral imperative, but as a realistic setting to the story.

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Interesting that the hearth does burn with coal - I was thinking the same thing and how the husband is slaving for that coal to furnish the fire that will nourish the family.

I did not think the contrast of the natural beauty of nature and of the coal mine's ugliness was the main theme in this story, but it is a sideline theme, and worthy of mention. It also mimics the difference in the husband and the wife and the duality of their lives and expectations, much as the same as in S&L. Yes, the description of the town is an observation on Lawrence's part and very realistic - the perfect setting for this story - and one he knew well.

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Chrysanthemums are a flower that blossom in the fall and are associated with death. We put mums in front of tombstones in the fall. The bright Mum flower will foreshadow the bright dead body of the father when it is brought home. The breaking of the flowers into petals accentuates the death association. Interesting how the mother exclaims, "One would think the house was afire," when the daughter spots a broken flower in her apron. But more importantly is this statement by the mother:

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I did not know chrysanthamums were associated with death. How did you find this out. I know that various flowers do have significance as representing an idea such as the lily that Manolia pointed out to us in the S&L thread. This seem to make the mother afraid. These flowers usually are associated with death but I was not aware that chyrsantamums were a flower representing death. Aren't they an oriental flower originally? I will look them up in Wikipedia - now you have me curious to find out. I know that different colored roses have different meanings. Red is for true love, yellow for parting, etc. I don't know about scent with chysanthamums either. I don't recall them smelling very much although when one gardens and plants them I do recall some scent that is not very appealing, strong like dandelions, but I may be wrong. Maybe these are just NJ (the Garden State) variety....haha. Polution up your way from NYC probably killed the scent! :lol:

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And we ironically can finish that statement with "it was chrysanthemums when he died." Something that confuses me, though. I have planted Chysanthemums and every time I do or come across them, I sniff them only to find they have no odor or scent of any kind. I always think of this story when I do. Am I wrong in assuming that Mums don't have a scent or is it just the ones here in New York? Do Mums in England have any scent?

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I don't know what is wrong with me today. I keep answering your question that is below instead of above in my quoted post - please forgive me. I need my dinner - I am hungry and tired.:(

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Nonetheless we see the two symbols interweaved in part I.

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Yes, excellent and a very good post with keen observance and well put! :thumbs_up

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Originally Posted by Janine

I don't know about scent with chysanthamums either. I don't recall them smelling very much although when one gardens and plants them I do recall some scent that is not very appealing, strong like dandelions, but I may be wrong. Maybe these are just NJ (the Garden State) variety....haha. Polution up your way from NYC probably killed the scent! :lol:

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:lol: :lol: You mean the scent degenerates in NY? Hahaha.

Here are some Mums of various colors for those who don't know what they are.

http://www.freshflower.com/images/Mums.jpg

I will say that it was hard to find the association of chrysanthemums with death. Mostly it seems to symbolize the opposite, long life, especially in far east culture. But finally I found this:

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November Birth Flower
The chrysanthemum is the November birthflower. The chrysanthemum means compassion, friendship and secret love. This flower can be red, white or yellow. Chrysanthemums have been grown by the Chinese for over 2,000 years. This flower is also a symbol of the sun. Chrysanthemum was named after the Greek word which means gold flower.

The chrysanthemum blooms in late summer and fall. These flowers are native to Asia and Europe. There are over 30 species of the chyrsanthemum. It is the national flower of Japan and symbolizes the Japanese Emperor. In Europe the chrysanthemum is a symbol of death and is used for funerals or on graves. The chrysanthemum flower is actually a powerful antiseptic and antibiotic! It is used in traditional Chinese medicine to treat high blood pressure and angina. It is a perennial flower that will come back year after year.

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http://www.birthflowersguide.com/nov...th-flower.html

My family, and we are of Italian ethnicity, have always regard chrysanthemums as associated with death.

Well here's another that I found. Notice the last sentence:

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Chrysanthemum
Commonly called "mums" or "tansies," this popular perennial's name comes from the Greek chrysos (gold) and anthos (flower). The Chusan daisy became the "pompom chrysanthemum" - so called because in France, where it was first grown, it looked like the pompons on sailors' hats.
Chrysanthemums had been cultivated in Chinese gardens for more than 2,500 years before first being exhibited in England in 1795. Brought by visiting Buddhist monks, the chrysanthemum arrived in Japan in AD 400.
Sentiment & Symbolism
The chrysanthemum has been the focus of Oriental adulation for centuries.
In China, the chrysanthemum's association with autumn stems from its tendency to bloom in the fall. Consequently, the ancient Chinese chose the Chrysanthemum ("chu hua") as their Flower for October, a symbol of the rest and ease that followed the season's final harvest. Mums were considered one of the four Chinese "noble plants" (the others being bamboo, the plum, and the orchid), and were the official badge of the Old Chinese Army. Since chrysanthemums were considered the flower of the chinese noble class, they were prohibited in a lower-class person's garden. The Chinese believe that a chrysanthemum given to one's beloved, after its being used to wipe one's mouth after drinking wine, will ensure undying love and fidelity.
Called "kikus" in Japanese, chrysanthemums were featured on the Imperial Crest of Japan, and were so beloved by Japanese emperors that they sat upon chrysanthemum thrones. The Japanese still hold the chrysanthemum as a symbol of the sun, and they consider the orderly unfolding of the mum's petals to be a symbol of perfection.They also presume that a single chrysanthemum petal placed in the bottom of a wine glass encourages a long and healthy life.
Color Messages
While chrysanthemums generally denote cheerfulness and rest, individual colors do carry specific messages: red for love, good luck and best wishes; white for truth; and yellow for slighted love. Chrysanthemums will be welcomed throughout the British Isles and North America for any occasion. In Italy, however, their exclusive association with the dead makes chrysanthemums acceptable only for funerals.

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http://www.sendflowers.ru/eng/info/512.html

I wonder if Lawrence picked up the death association from his Italian travals. Or is it a British symbol of death too? Anyone know?