The Summer is pleading (to stay).
The 'first ' prank be Mystery.
The prank is being played on her.
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The Summer is pleading (to stay).
The 'first ' prank be Mystery.
The prank is being played on her.
About time someone provided another copy of this poem. I shall oblige.:D
Quote:
The Tint I cannot take -- is best --
The Color too remote
That I could show it in Bazaar --
A Guinea at a sight --
The fine -- impalpable Array --
That swaggers on the eye
Like Cleopatra's Company --
Repeated -- in the sky --
The Moments of Dominion
That happen on the Soul
And leave it with a Discontent
Too exquisite -- to tell --
The eager look -- on Landscapes --
As if they just repressed
Some Secret -- that was pushing
Like Chariots -- in the Vest --
The Pleading of the Summer --
That other Prank -- of Snow --
That Cushions Mystery with Tulle,
For fear the Squirrels -- know.
Their Graspless manners -- mock us --
Until the Cheated Eye
Shuts arrogantly -- in the Grave --
Another way -- to see --
I would have to disagree; but I do not have time to go over it, right now.Quote:
The Summer is pleading (to stay).
The 'first ' prank be Mystery.
The prank is being played on her.
There is no words in the poem denoting staying.
So, ktd, are you saying that the narrator is not seeing the trascendental power of nature in the first three stanzas? What then is she referring to with "The Moments of Dominion / That happen on the soul"Quote:
Originally Posted by ktd222
Also I don't know if someone mentioned this before, but when she says "Their Graspless manners," their is refering to the multiple natural elements she's brought up. So perhaps you're right, ktd, the narrator can't experience the transcendental power. But then what is "Dominion" referring to?
I agree with most of that last post Virgil.
Especially the meaning of 'their'. I think if it was the squirrels, the full stop wouldn't be there. I think by Dominion, she is referring to the overwhelming power of nature dominating all that gaze upon it, particularly her soul, which it 'happens on' (ie. accidentally finds - as in 'I happened on a young girl as she was bathing in the stream - but enough of my fantasies!)
I have a handle (rightly or wrongly) on most of this poem now. The only two phrases that still won't sit still are The Pleading of the Summer and the last line. The last line is OK though because it's nicely ambiguous and leads me off in all sorts of directions at once.
But the pleading of summer is niggling at me; telling me that it has an obvious meaning which I'm just not quite getting (and I'm not happy with jackyyyy's pleading to stay theory - sorry jack). Any other ideas out there?
I posted my squirrel theory.
The eager look -- on Landscapes --
As if they just repressed
What does this mean, "repressed" ?
Yes, I think we agree, but it seems to me that ktd is disagreeing with what you state above, and if so then I'm curious as to how she's reading it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xamonas Chegwe
Read the whole stanza as a sentence.Quote:
Originally Posted by jackyyyy
The eager look on lanscapes as if they just repressed some secret that was pushing, like chariots, in the vest.
I am assuming that vest refers to the chest region and therefore the heart.
Would that be repressed in the observer or the landscapes themselves? She seems to do a lot of personifying nature.
She is saying, AS IF they, the LANDSCAPES...
An eager look on LANDSCAPES (AS IF) they, the landscapes themselves, repressed, pushed away (concealed, hidden) some secret that was trying to get out. She is not quite accusing the LANDSCAPES.
The LANDSCAPES are natural, change with the seasons, and because of the SQs (seasonal), and because of the snow (seasonal), I think of Winter.
Moments of Dominion... are good feelings of mastery, ownership, conquest. I think she is elating in the first 3 stanzas.
If I want to pick on every word I can, but I can't see why she would write a riddle. I wonder the test here is reading her style. Ktd seems very sure of, I look forward to what she has to say.
But she uses the word "Vest", which seems to imply a feeling from the heart, as XC pointed out. If the landscapes are what is repressed, why the use of "Vest"?
I'm under the impression that the poem's meaning is to relate her feelings under the influence of nature. This is not an easy task, hence the ambiguity. I like it for that.
Yes, its sure ambiguous anyway.. which is not a bad thing, like music, except when people want to be exact about it. Vest to me (don't laugh), is snow. Because its white (ya, I know lots of coloured vests, but not back then). Vest is also a verb.. but I do not want to complicate it anymore than is already.
Its just an argument for one way to see the poem. Isn't the one who posts the poem suppose to be active in the discussion anyways?Quote:
Ktd seems very sure of, I look forward to what she has to say
Okay, fine, well do this by stanza.
The Tint I cannot take -- is best --
The Color too remote
That I could show it in Bazaar --
A Guinea at a sight --
This to me reads The Tint she cannot take is the Tint at its best. There is a negative tone associated with what she cannot take. Look at the next lines:
The Color too remote
That I could show it in Bazaar --
A Guinea at a sight --
More emphasis on the I. The Color of the Tint is too remote that she could show it in Bazaar--A Guinea at a sight.
Bazaar defined: A bazaar is a market, often covered, typically found in areas of Muslim culture.
The goods that the market is selling is found 'inside' or under the covering of the market. Another allusion to the market covering being the Tint and what it has to offer(its goods) inside. And you could almost see her paying a Guinea for a glimpse(sight) into the Tint. Yet, The poem starts off 'The Tint I cannot take-' so that negates that action being done by her to 'pay' for a look, if you will, into what the Tint has to offer inside-not full discernment though, she only gets 'a sight' for a Guinea-never more.
Its still 'The Tint she cannot take'
The Color too remote
Its as if from the color of the Tint alone she is unable to discern the significance of the Tint; so instead she 'pays' for discernment: 'A Guinea at a sight.' Even though, again, it is 'The Tint she cannot take.'
Agree or disagree? Any other opinons to how stanza 1 translates?
I like Petrarch's Love's idea about the 'tint' - back about 5 pages! - that she is referring to herself as a cloth and the 'tint' as a colour (a dye) that is too special and sublime to be completely absorbed by the cloth as it is, that is, the cloth cannot express it perfectly. She uses this as a metaphor for the way in which her soul is moved by nature at it's greatest but cannot express it adequately in words. If this is what she meant, it is a beautiful allegory. Even if this is NOT what she meant, it is STILL a beautiful allegory. I hope that it IS what she meant.
Stanza 2:
The fine -- impalpable Array --
That swaggers on the eye
Like Cleopatra's Company --
Repeated -- in the sky --
'The fine -- impalpable Array --' to me, is a description of the Tint as being 'incapable of being felt by touch'(m-w dictionary). Or another way of implying that she is trying to grasp The Tint-which is just an alternative way from the first stanza-of 'paying' for information in order to understand the signifcance of The Tint. So that, as she is trying to grasp, 'The fine--impalpable Array--' seems to almost boast in front of her eye because Tint is not graspable, also.
What I get from this: 'Like Cleopatra's Company --Repeated -- in the sky --'
is not only the way the Tint seems to swagger in front of the eye thats trying in vain to grasp it, but this line almost gives an imagined image to us about how graspable the Tint is-try physically, to grasp reflections of anything. You can't physically hold shadows in the palm of you hands. But as to why she specifically uses 'Cleopatra's Company,' I don't know. Any thoughts?
Disagree or agree?
I'm still holding on to my reading, although you make interesting points. Your reading doesn't explain "Momnets of Dominion on the soul" If you can weave that in, you might pursuade me.Quote:
Originally Posted by ktd222
This might hinge on how we interpret impalpable, so here's M-W:
Quote:
impalpable
Main Entry: im·pal·pa·ble
Pronunciation: (")im-'pal-p&-b&l
Function: adjective
1 a : incapable of being felt by touch : INTANGIBLE <the impalpable aura of power that emanated from him -- Osbert Sitwell> b : so finely divided that no grains or grit can be felt <rock worn to an impalpable powder>
2 : not readily discerned by the mind
Virgil,
I'll explain the third stanza later. I have to get back to work.
The Moments of Dominion
That happen on the Soul
And leave it with a Discontent
Too exquisite -- to tell --
You stated above, and I agree, that 'The Moments of Dominion that happen on the Soul' has transported to a spiritual or transcendent level. 'The Moments of Dominion' may be the 'impalpable Array(stanza2),'The Tint' itself(stanza1), that is in front of her. All one in the same. In the first two stanzas she is trying to understand the Tint, but unsuccessfully. In this stanza the Tint, which we find out is same as 'The Moments of Dominion' happens on the Soul. 'Happens-'just happens on the Soul, not because she has found any way to understand it-because she hasn't. Even though 'The Moments of Dominion' happen on the Soul, she is unrealizing of it. Just as the Tint and Array shows itself to her.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
'The Moments of Dominion' happen, it happens on the Soul, right on the Soul. And yet, the Soul 'cannot take' 'The Moments of Dominion' into itself. Which metaphorically would be understanding, right? The Soul is still bound to some need of seeing and reasoning to understand, which prevents her from realizing 'The Moments of Dominion' happens right on her soul. And as a result:
And leave it with a Discontent
Too exquisite -- to tell
leaves even the Soul with a lack of contentment too exquisite to tell(to explain).
Any other opinions?
I am still taking in everything you wrote there, Ktd. What about this word 'Exquisite'. Why do you think she picked that word?
And leave it with a DiscontentQuote:
What about this word 'Exquisite'. Why do you think she picked that word?
Too exquisite -- to tell
ya, thats tough, because their is weird syntax when I translate the line above.
...And leaves the soul with a discontent too selective to tell.
Any thoughts, because I'm tired. I'll comment tomorrow.
Exquisite is an unusual word in the ways it can be used.
It has 2 slightly differing meanings:
1. Extremely beautiful, usually with overtones of delicacy - "The filigree work on the musical box was exquisite."
2. Intensely felt - "As the lash struck his bared back, the pain was exquisite."
I think that Dickinson is well aware of the ambiguity of the word, it's positive/negative dichotomy. It could be that she is using it to simultaneously describe both the beauty and power of the 'tint' (in my interpretation, an awe-inspiring experience of nature) and the intensity of the discontent felt by being unable to fully grasp it's essence.
But this wouldn't fit with what is going on in the first two stanzas. A certain 'trying' to understand by her.Quote:
Exquisite is an unusual word in the ways it can be used.
It has 2 slightly differing meanings:
1. Extremely beautiful, usually with overtones of delicacy - "The filigree work on the musical box was exquisite."
2. Intensely felt - "As the lash struck his bared back, the pain was exquisite."
I think that Dickinson is well aware of the ambiguity of the word, it's positive/negative dichotomy. It could be that she is using it to simultaneously describe both the beauty and power of the 'tint' (in my interpretation, an awe-inspiring experience of nature) and the intensity of the discontent felt by being unable to fully grasp it's essence.
The first or second definition would fit better.Quote:
exquisite
2 entries found for exquisite.
To select an entry, click on it.
exquisite[1,adjective]exquisite[2,noun]
Main Entry: 1ex·qui·site
Pronunciation: ek-'skwi-z&t, 'ek-(")
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English exquisit, from Latin exquisitus, past participle of exquirere to search out, from ex- + quaerere to seek
1 : carefully selected : CHOICE
2 archaic : ACCURATE
3 a : marked by flawless craftsmanship or by beautiful, ingenious, delicate, or elaborate execution b : marked by nice discrimination, deep sensitivity, or subtle understanding <exquisite taste> c : ACCOMPLISHED, PERFECTED <an exquisite gentleman>
4 a : pleasing through beauty, fitness, or perfection <an exquisite white blossom> b : ACUTE, INTENSE <exquisite pain> c : having uncommon or esoteric appeal
synonym see CHOICE
- ex·qui·site·ly adverb
- ex·qui·site·ness noun
#2 works for me too. I don't know that it can be ambiguous without compromising the earlier stanzas. Anyway... a little closer to exquisition.
OK, that's not really different from what I and others were saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by ktd222
And at the end of the poem, then the lifting of the "Tulle" at death is a revalation, and I mean that in the religious sense. What is ungraspable but exquisite in life is revealed at death. Ok, I'm comfortable now with the whole thing.
ya, that would seem so, except for the word 'arrogantly' which still makes me unsure if she-in life or in death-will every free herself from reasoning. She's being so exact in all of the previous stanzas that I can't help it feel there is something else happening in the last stanza. The poem would be a total let down and border on cliche if the poem ended as above mentioned.Quote:
And at the end of the poem, then the lifting of the "Tulle" at death is a revalation, and I mean that in the religious sense. What is ungraspable but exquisite in life is revealed at death. Ok, I'm comfortable now with the whole thing
Until the Cheated Eye
Shuts arrogantly -- in the Grave
There is something specific going on here. Again with the weird syntax. Why is the 'Cheated Eye' assuming that it can 'shut arrogantly--in the Grave'?
Well, according to my earlier posts, the eye is arrogant in life becuase it thinks it knows everything. Arrogant is a word loaded with judgemental scorn. Once death arrives, the eye will see what it didn't know (and therefore cheated) before. And then "another way to see" as Xamonas points out.Quote:
Originally Posted by ktd222
Or what about the eye being so arrogant that it believes it can grasp Tint(or cheat) once the eye shuts in the grave?Quote:
Well, according to my earlier posts, the eye is arrogant in life becuase it thinks it knows everything. Arrogant is a word loaded with judgemental scorn. Once death arrives, the eye will see what it didn't know (and therefore cheated) before. And then "another way to see" as Xamonas points out.
But the eye is not described as being arrogant, just of shutting arrogantly. It is described as 'cheated' because it cannot 'grasp' the 'tint' - this part I can see - but why does it shut 'arrogantly'?
Personally, it is these ambiguities that I like best about the poem; these small, puddles of dubious clarity that refract and distort the view of the whole so that you never quite see it the same way twice - If you prefer, it is the tint I cannot take which is best!! :nod:
Hey could be on a roll here.. exactly,, why 'exquisite', 'arrogant', 'cheated'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xamonas Chegwe
If it was only about enjoying it, ambiguities can make a great kaleidoscope, but for some reason we are trying to get inside Dickinson's head.
And therein lies your mistake. You are trying to get inside the head of Emily Dickinson. Emily is a woman's name! Much as I love the creatures, I don't understand how any woman's mind works, let alone one that also happens to be a great poet.Quote:
Originally Posted by jackyyyy
There comes a point when you just have to stand back and marvel. For me the best thing about great poetry is the way that it twists in your grip and won't stand still. Over-analyse a poem (or a woman) and you run the risk of losing the mystery that gave it (or her) it's allure in the first place.
I have to bow to your wisdom there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xamonas Chegwe
Look at it this way: The whole poem is about her trying to grasp Tint; yet it is this very 'trying to grasp' that is limiting her from understanding, because 'the trying' ceases her from understanding in any other way. It leads the a cheated Eye.Quote:
But the eye is not described as being arrogant, just of shutting arrogantly. It is described as 'cheated' because it cannot 'grasp' the 'tint' - this part I can see - but why does it shut 'arrogantly'?
Even in the grave the 'Cheated Eye shuts arrogantly.' Not going to the grave the eye shuts arrogantly. She cannot let go of this 'trying to reason,' hence the 'arrogantly,' to believe this is another 'trying' she can use to see the tint. To 'see' not feel; which I've already stated that it must be the 'seeing' that ceases and the Tint to be felt. This last stanza goes back to the 'trying to see' in stanza 1 and 3.Quote:
Main Entry: 1cheat
Pronunciation: 'chEt
Function: verb
transitive senses
1 : to deprive of something valuable by the use of deceit or fraud
2 : to influence or lead by deceit, trick, or artifice
3 : to elude or thwart by or as if by outwitting <cheat death>
intransitive senses
1 a : to practice fraud or trickery b : to violate rules dishonestly (as at cards or on an examination)
2 : to be sexually unfaithful -- usually used with on
- cheat·er noun
I can't read anything to support this statement.Quote:
If you prefer, it is the tint I cannot take which is best!!
I'm not. I've been supporting my point with what I read in the poem.Quote:
And therein lies your mistake. You are trying to get inside the head of Emily Dickinson
If paying close attention to tone, syntax, etc, is over-analysing then I'm ok with your statement.Quote:
Over-analyse a poem (or a woman) and you run the risk of losing the mystery that gave it (or her) it's allure in the first place.
I was equating the way the poem talks about the impalpability of nature with the way I feel about the poem itself. It is the very fact that it is not graspable in a single sitting, or even in several, that will keep me coming back to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ktd222
I agree with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xamonas Chegwe
...and trying to analyse each and every word individually. It is like trying to analyse every brushstroke of a painting. There is a synergy to a great poem that cannot be broken down into the sum of it's parts without losing something. The way the words combine and play against each other is the essence; isolating a word from a line, a line from a stanza, a stanza from the whole, is like looking at parts of a car and wondering how it works. It can help, but it can also confuse if you lose sight of the bigger picture.Quote:
Originally Posted by ktd222
Another thing to consider. Even great poets are human. It is often assumed in analysis that they knew exactly why they put every word where they did and that they were all chosen for a purpose. This may be true in some cases. But it is certainly false in most. Is it beyond the bounds of reason that Dickinson would choose a word over an alternative just because it sounded good? Or that she might deliberately throw in an ambiguous word or phrase in a mischievous manner? Or that something that she wrote in a moment of inspiration didn't really make sense to her either but was too beautiful to drop (not to mention that she herself might have caught a hint of meaning in it without being sure exactly what)? I'm not saying that any of these are necessarily the case here, but I'm not ruling any of them out either.
I love the poem; it speaks to me and I can see a meaning in it that may or may not be right. I also expect it to show another side of itself next time I read it. A poem's meaning lies somewhere between the author's intention and the reader's interpretation and is constantly in flux. I wouldn't have it any other way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xamonas Chegwe
This poem is not like, say, The Love Song of Alfred J Prufrock, so every word does take on an extra level of importance.
I never discounted this. Tone and sytax does not mean analysis of every single word. I took both the sum and parts in my analysis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xamonas Chegwe