Heaven and Hell -Are they for real?

Both Heaven and Hell exist as earthly states of mind in which we all have experienced at some point. IMO it is actually rather selfish to use your own moral doings throughout life for the benefits of a glorified afterlife. The act of good will for the sake of humanity is one of man's greatest nobilities, but only if it can be separated by the natural impulse of greed and self-pride. Life is its own big endowment, and death is only necessary. I would rather not attend either such place anyway, the overbearing dominance of total perfection or total brutality would be too overwhelming. Reincarnation sounds like a much more gratifying alternative to be; however, truth of it shall never be reached so long as you are earthly conscious.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Serena03

Both Heaven and Hell exist as earthly states of mind in which we all have experienced at some point. IMO it is actually rather selfish to use your own moral doings throughout life for the benefits of a glorified afterlife. The act of good will for the sake of humanity is one of man's greatest nobilities, but only if it can be separated by the natural impulse of greed and self-pride. Life is its own big endowment, and death is only necessary. I would rather not attend either such place anyway, the overbearing dominance of total perfection or total brutality would be too overwhelming. Reincarnation sounds like a much more gratifying alternative to be; however, truth of it shall never be reached so long as you are earthly conscious.

---

Well said and great avatar & address!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Serena03

Both Heaven and Hell exist as earthly states of mind in which we all have experienced at some point. IMO it is actually rather selfish to use your own moral doings throughout life for the benefits of a glorified afterlife. The act of good will for the sake of humanity is one of man's greatest nobilities, but only if it can be separated by the natural impulse of greed and self-pride. Life is its own big endowment, and death is only necessary. I would rather not attend either such place anyway, the overbearing dominance of total perfection or total brutality would be too overwhelming. Reincarnation sounds like a much more gratifying alternative to be; however, truth of it shall never be reached so long as you are earthly conscious.

---

I don't disagree with anything you've said. I will only suggest to you something and I'll ask you to keep it in mind for life. It's only this. I've experienced a reality beyond this one - which is equally described by many, and adequately described by Black Elk, the medicine man, as the spirit world, where everything is spirit; that world is more real than this one. I know this is little evidence, but I've got a bit more to say, but I'm almost done. The only words I can use to describe it are infinite peace, bliss, and existence. I never believed in the soul or spirit or God as a kid, in fact the opposite - I believed for sure they did not exist, as surely as the Atheist here. But at some point I began a path which one day led me to experience the divine. As I said I cannot give you any more description than the words infinite peace, bliss and existence. Many people who are absolutely convicted atheists will argue forever and say that what I experienced was not true. And they may argue while I step out and do something more healthy. But in reply to what you said about the overbearing dominance of total perfection, I can tell you this is not what I felt when I experienced divine consciousness. It was like waking up, and suddenly realizing that I'd come from an infinite peace, will return to one, and was never separate from the source, the ground of reality. I know this has gotten a bit more verbose - all I want to do is let you know what I know to be there, within, without. Logic does not dictate that we are not connected to all life, that we are not part of the source of reality, and that there is not an infinite existence to which we are connected. It's only our language that tells us this - language which is both helpful and limiting in both surviving and understanding (reality and ourselves).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Serena03

Both Heaven and Hell exist as earthly states of mind in which we all have experienced at some point. IMO it is actually rather selfish to use your own moral doings throughout life for the benefits of a glorified afterlife. The act of good will for the sake of humanity is one of man's greatest nobilities, but only if it can be separated by the natural impulse of greed and self-pride. Life is its own big endowment, and death is only necessary. I would rather not attend either such place anyway, the overbearing dominance of total perfection or total brutality would be too overwhelming. Reincarnation sounds like a much more gratifying alternative to be; however, truth of it shall never be reached so long as you are earthly conscious.

---

Is it good to be so sure, or is an open mind better? When you say you'd rather not attend such a place - I don't think there's a choice. It depends who's right.:D


I'm fortunate that the Buddhist view doesn't have the qualifying for heaven/banished to hell for etenity conundrum.

According to the teachings, Karma is a natural law which determines where you will be reborn etc according to the positive or negative actions performed in life. Buddhism does have a notion of heaven and hell, and whether they are psychological states or actual realms is a moot point in the West. Its not moot according to the teachings though. THey're not an eternal state.

So when you say reincarnation may be more gratifying, it may not be when you consider the possibility of being reborn as an animal, a ghost, or in hell. It's not an easy - everything will be lovely - concept in Buddhism, but needs work on oneself to progress into positive rebirths - ideally as a human. As a human a being can commit terrible atrocities and acts of great bravery/ compassion. There's no predestination, and so it's up to you. There is the idea of accumulated positive and negative Karma which can ripen.

As for knowledge of reincarnation - you're right - an ordinary person like myself can't perceive other lives - but some can - The Buddha and other realised teachers. There are instructions to find out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NikolaiI

I don't disagree with anything you've said. I will only suggest to you something and I'll ask you to keep it in mind for life. It's only this. I've experienced a reality beyond this one - which is equally described by many, and adequately described by Black Elk, the medicine man, as the spirit world, where everything is spirit; that world is more real than this one. I know this is little evidence, but I've got a bit more to say, but I'm almost done. The only words I can use to describe it are infinite peace, bliss, and existence. I never believed in the soul or spirit or God as a kid, in fact the opposite - I believed for sure they did not exist, as surely as the Atheist here. But at some point I began a path which one day led me to experience the divine. As I said I cannot give you any more description than the words infinite peace, bliss and existence. Many people who are absolutely convicted atheists will argue forever and say that what I experienced was not true. And they may argue while I step out and do something more healthy. But in reply to what you said about the overbearing dominance of total perfection, I can tell you this is not what I felt when I experienced divine consciousness. It was like waking up, and suddenly realizing that I'd come from an infinite peace, will return to one, and was never separate from the source, the ground of reality. I know this has gotten a bit more verbose - all I want to do is let you know what I know to be there, within, without. Logic does not dictate that we are not connected to all life, that we are not part of the source of reality, and that there is not an infinite existence to which we are connected. It's only our language that tells us this - language which is both helpful and limiting in both surviving and understanding (reality and ourselves).

---

Well, it is probably needless for me to go on about near-death experiences explained, many cases have been described similar to this one. I don't think anyone really 'knows' the truth behind their experiences, they usually are merely conditional. However, what has been explained is also indeterminate to complete justification as it does not contain all the answers. But for the answers that are still pending, it does not necessarily mean that a deity or divine force wins by default. It may be difficult to perceive exactly what was experienced, but nonetheless serves no complete justification as they cannot be completely understood without language or visual evidence being the carrier.

"Total perfection" may be subjective to each individual, but it still usually pertains to an individual's idea of 'absolute bliss' like as what you seemingly described. Nevertheless both the nonspiritual and spiritual worlds as we 'know' them has still shared common compatibilities of the same aspirations and encompassments of goodness, peace, love and truth that will at least let us meet each other half way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paulclem

Is it good to be so sure, or is an open mind better? When you say you'd rather not attend such a place - I don't think there's a choice. It depends who's right.:D


I'm fortunate that the Buddhist view doesn't have the qualifying for heaven/banished to hell for etenity conundrum.

According to the teachings, Karma is a natural law which determines where you will be reborn etc according to the positive or negative actions performed in life. Buddhism does have a notion of heaven and hell, and whether they are psychological states or actual realms is a moot point in the West. Its not moot according to the teachings though. THey're not an eternal state.

So when you say reincarnation may be more gratifying, it may not be when you consider the possibility of being reborn as an animal, a ghost, or in hell. It's not an easy - everything will be lovely - concept in Buddhism, but needs work on oneself to progress into positive rebirths - ideally as a human. As a human a being can commit terrible atrocities and acts of great bravery/ compassion. There's no predestination, and so it's up to you. There is the idea of accumulated positive and negative Karma which can ripen.

As for knowledge of reincarnation - you're right - an ordinary person like myself can't perceive other lives - but some can - The Buddha and other realised teachers. There are instructions to find out.

---

In this case, there are no choices as 'hell' is really the only choice. For even "perfection" is not perfect. Even Karma cannot fully determine which life of each creature is either loathsome, mediocre or most noble for the lives and 'emotions' of each cannot be fully understood. When I said "may be more gratifying," this does not necessarily mean that it will be gratifying. But at least you could return to Earth with more of a counterbalance of good and evil that can be logistically bearable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Serena03

In this case, there are no choices as 'hell' is really the only choice. For even "perfection" is not perfect. Even Karma cannot fully determine which life of each creature is either loathsome, mediocre or most noble for the lives and 'emotions' of each cannot be fully understood. When I said "may be more gratifying," this does not necessarily mean that it will be gratifying. But at least you could return to Earth with more of a counterbalance of good and evil that can be logistically bearable.

---

From the Buddhist perspective, it's not about choice. That's our problem - we act in ignorence of the results of our actions which can lead to an unfortunate rebirth. Karma means action.

You're right that Karma doesn't determine a being's life. There's no predestination, but choice dissipates when a being is born into an unfortunate realm. They are too taken up with the sufferings of that state.

Being human offers great potential. It's not about being atheist or not believing anything - it's about the morality of intentions. Intentions are not initially pure an the sense that there's no self interest in actions, but you have to start somewhere, and it can be improved.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Serena03

Well, it is probably needless for me to go on about near-death experiences explained, many cases have been described similar to this one. I don't think anyone really 'knows' the truth behind their experiences, they usually are merely conditional. However, what has been explained is also indeterminate to complete justification as it does not contain all the answers. But for the answers that are still pending, it does not necessarily mean that a deity or divine force wins by default. It may be difficult to perceive exactly what was experienced, but nonetheless serves no complete justification as they cannot be completely understood without language or visual evidence being the carrier.

"Total perfection" may be subjective to each individual, but it still usually pertains to an individual's idea of 'absolute bliss' like as what you seemingly described. Nevertheless both the nonspiritual and spiritual worlds as we 'know' them has still shared common compatibilities of the same aspirations and encompassments of goodness, peace, love and truth that will at least let us meet each other half way.

---

Oh, no this was nothing about a near-death experience.

It cannot be proven either way. How do we know that heaven and hill is true?

It's just an only a superstitious belief..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by panel123

It cannot be proven either way. How do we know that heaven and hill is true?

It's just an only a superstitious belief..

---

It depends on your point of view/ beliefs etc, but there are hellish conditions that exist on earth. If a person believes that there is an afterlife of some kind, then doesn't the possibility of hell also exist?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by panel123

It cannot be proven either way. How do we know that heaven and hill is true?

It's just an only a superstitious belief..

---

I beg to differ!

Hills are a geological and geographical fact! Their existence cannot be denied!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Scheherazade

I beg to differ!

Hills are a geological and geographical fact! Their existence cannot be denied!!!

---

Eee I missed that - or am I of the green marking pen brigade?

This heaven and hell stuff is never ending. I do not think, in fact few think today, they exist physically. Does God too exist physically? Is God substantial? I mean God is made up of the substances we are made up of?

God is a concept, not a physical entity at all. We cannot beleive Greek Gods, millions of Hindu Gods, Christian Gods.

God is an idea, a product of our thought. The idea God is not God. This is an imagination. Yet the Universal God, the Impersonal God, the source all of us outsource to for our energies is a different issue I cannot deny.

Here most are groping for a way in the dark and fighting with another without realization

Yet clearly some people experience hellish and heavenly conditions on earth. Unfortunately I think hellish conditions are more common - whether that is a mental hell, as in certain mental health problems, or hellish physical conditions.

Having said that, your post seems to concur with the original point of the article in the OP. This was that the common western conceptions of heaven and hell has no basis in the christian scriptures or the Koran.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paulclem

Yet clearly some people experience hellish and heavenly conditions on earth. Unfortunately I think hellish conditions are more common - whether that is a mental hell, as in certain mental health problems, or hellish physical conditions.

Having said that, your post seems to concur with the original point of the article in the OP. This was that the common western conceptions of heaven and hell has no basis in the christian scriptures or the Koran.

---

Why the "yet"?