The Manufacture of Mozart

Tired of following your besidethepoint merrygoround, Musicology, I ask you kindly to advise readers of this forum what answer of mine gave birth to your last fixation, ie that I ever questioned your allegation that "Mozart was manufactured".

From the early beginning of this thread I accepted it as true, challenging you eversince to produce evidence on the identity of "Mozart's manufacturer" * only.

So, please oblige me, preferably by copypasting the specific part of my writings, in this thread or others and, in return, I'll answer your question above, concerning "relevance" .

Cheers.


*Copypasting from your post #1 defining the original scope and purpose of this thread.

I am specially interested in the relationship between writers of Mozart's time with the Jesuit Order, since, it seems to me, 'Enlightenment' philosophers such as Voltaire and Rousseau (both hugely important to the Mozart story) were themselves strangely allied during their own lifetimes with the controlling aims of Jesuit Order, even beyond 1773. Indeed, the 'Englightenment' as a movement seems to have been a Jesuit-led strategy which flourished after the same Jesuit Order was officially annulled in 1773. So that the rise of what is generally called 'secularism' in the name of the 'Enlightenment' was very much controlled, orchestrated, and even defined by the deliberate rise of adoration for Rousseau and Voltaire (both of whom had close relationships to the Jesuits and to the fraternities which emerged after 1773). Mozart's relationship with the Encyclopaedists, Diderot, Grimm and others, D'Epinay and others are clear evidence of such a relationship. In 1778 Mozart's Paris patron during his stay there was the same Baron Grimm.

....and your post #14:

The 'New World Order' is a union of elitist interests (including monarchies, elites, rich privileged bloodlines, corporate interests etc. etc) all headed up, inevitably, by the papacy. Of this I am completely sure. And including corrupt churches and entire governments and their contractors. Such is the lesson from the 18th century and I believe it remains true today in the scale of control of the media, and even of the textbooks we read. A classic example is the fairytale story of W.A. Mozart.

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Originally Posted by yanni

Tired of following your besidethepoint merrygoround, Musicology, I ask you kindly to advise readers of this forum what answer of mine gave birth to your last fixation, ie that I ever questioned your allegation that "Mozart was manufactured".

From the early beginning of this thread I accepted it as true, challenging you eversince to produce evidence on the identity of "Mozart's manufacturer" * only.

So, please oblige me, preferably by copypasting the specific part of my writings, in this thread or others and, in return, I'll answer your question above, concerning "relevance" .

Cheers.


*Copypasting from your post #1 defining the original scope and purpose of this thread.

I am specially interested in the relationship between writers of Mozart's time with the Jesuit Order, since, it seems to me, 'Enlightenment' philosophers such as Voltaire and Rousseau (both hugely important to the Mozart story) were themselves strangely allied during their own lifetimes with the controlling aims of Jesuit Order, even beyond 1773. Indeed, the 'Englightenment' as a movement seems to have been a Jesuit-led strategy which flourished after the same Jesuit Order was officially annulled in 1773. So that the rise of what is generally called 'secularism' in the name of the 'Enlightenment' was very much controlled, orchestrated, and even defined by the deliberate rise of adoration for Rousseau and Voltaire (both of whom had close relationships to the Jesuits and to the fraternities which emerged after 1773). Mozart's relationship with the Encyclopaedists, Diderot, Grimm and others, D'Epinay and others are clear evidence of such a relationship. In 1778 Mozart's Paris patron during his stay there was the same Baron Grimm.

....and your post #14:

The 'New World Order' is a union of elitist interests (including monarchies, elites, rich privileged bloodlines, corporate interests etc. etc) all headed up, inevitably, by the papacy. Of this I am completely sure. And including corrupt churches and entire governments and their contractors. Such is the lesson from the 18th century and I believe it remains true today in the scale of control of the media, and even of the textbooks we read. A classic example is the fairytale story of W.A. Mozart.

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Yanni,

The only 'merrygoround' is the plain fact that the the Mozart story fails at its first test. There is no evidence of Mozart learning composition as a child or as a youth. There is no known teacher. No school which he ever attended for any real period of time. And, as for 'his' works up until his 13th year, these are not by W.A. Mozart. So says the evidence. And weeks later nobody has presented evidence to contradict this.

You accept that the life and career of Mozart was manufactured. Great.

And you ask me to say who arranged this fake career. Well, I have already given you the names of a whole series of composers. Including (to name just a few) Vanhal, Myslivececk, von Paradis, Luchesi, JC Bach etc. There are dozens, in fact. So that's part of your answer. Do I need to remind you of this thread ? I have also told you that the Jesuit Order were involved in Mozart's career (both before 1773 and even after their ban in 1773). I have told you that the agents of the 'Enlightenment' were involved, many of them Jesuit educated themselves. Including Voltaire, Rousseau and many others. I have told you the 'Englightenment' was a secularised movement begun by the Jesuit Order, for which there is plenty of evidence. I have also told you that the secret fraternities (such as the Illuminati) were controlled by the Jesuit Order from the very start - a fact which anyone can see for themselves who has studied that subject. And that Jesuit control of music publishing gave way to Illuminati control of music publishing. This too is a plain, demonstratable fact. Since major publishers of Mozart's Vienna were illuminati members. Still no argument. In fact, the posthumous publishers of Mozart's (alleged) music included major Illuminatist publishers. Including those of Frankfurt and also Vienna and Bonn. There is simply no doubt about this. The posthumous publication of over 500 'Mozart' works is further proof. Then there is the actual musical evidence from countless manuscripts. This process definitely occurred. Which you already agree about. And now you say I have not explained how this was done. I believe this thread has shown the truth of these things in reasonable detail. The manufacture of a fake career, as said, is something you already agree with.

So, in answer to your question of 'who manufactured Mozart ?' it included a vast list of compliant publishers, biographers, music composers, music patrons, fraternity members, family members, elites of the musical society of the late 18th century, and, of course, presided over by the emerging musical industry. A large number of people. Including (half a century later) those who compiled the first catalogue of 'Mozart's' works. Not forgetting the fairy story makers such as Leopold Mozart, Constanze Mozart, the various early biographers and hagiographers (such as Niemetscheck and G. Nissen). And men such as Abbe Georg Vogler and many others of the musical scene.

The fuller details would require long posts. I think I have already indicated that the careers of Rousseau and Voltaire were assisted by the occultists of Venice, part of the libertine movement which became the 'Enlightenment' (so-called). So that, beyond reasonable doubt, I have sketched an outline which you can study and confirm for yourself.

I am glad you agree with the basic thesis.

Regards

Help yourself, be more specific in your approach this time , Robert!

Here is again my question:

....advise readers of this forum what answer of mine gave birth to your last fixation, ie that I ever questioned your allegation that "Mozart was manufactured"....preferably by copypasting the specific part of my writings

PS Your other fixation, on the manufacturer, has already been covered, no need to reconfirm/aggravate it!

Good luck!

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Originally Posted by yanni

Help yourself, be more specific in your approach this time , Robert!

Here is again my question:

....advise readers of this forum what answer of mine gave birth to your last fixation, ie that I ever questioned your allegation that "Mozart was manufactured"....preferably by copypasting the specific part of my writings

PS Your other fixation, on the manufacturer, has already been covered, no need to reconfirm/aggravate it!

Good luck!

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Yes Yanni,

And since we both agree the musical career and giant reputation of Mozart was manufactured that's fine. Your own research on the careers of Rousseau/Gluck/Cocchi etc. is fine too. These are definitely complementary areas of research and I agree with much of what you say on those subjects.

Regards

Robert

"Yes", "no", hard to distinguish, Robert, but don't worry for such details:

As an-albeit minor-tail of New Age Theogony, your Mozart theories will never be truly appreciated by modern, Mammon serving, Muses, treating all us mortals, kings or shepards, equally "well"!

Or, in economic terms, an extended period of qualitative easing(QLE) always precedes an equaly long following period of quantitative easing(QE), divine intervention excluded..

Cheers!

Yanni,

Obscurantism aside, I must say it matters little what we think of Mozart. But it matters that we think. If thought is encouraged within 'Mozart research' it would be real progress. The great German musician and teacher J.N. Forkel (founder of the science of musicology and critic of the music industry) predicted, for years, during the late 18th and early 19th century that the emerging music industry would build its idols and lead students in to fantasy land. Leaving them unaware of what music is. That the end result would be a pseudo-musicology we see today. And wholesale ignorance. He pointed to musical models such as the legacy of J.S. Bach which, he pointed out, was something from which students of music could always learn.

Forkel was right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8yIV...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKHwB...eature=related

Thanks to this great website.

Best wishes

Robert Newman

If selfappointed music experts confuse "soul" with "sole", I very much doubt obscurantism can be put aside.

We did our best, nevertheless.

Best wishes to you too Robert.

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Originally Posted by yanni

If selfappointed music experts confuse "soul" with "sole", I very much doubt obscurantism can be put aside.

We did our best, nevertheless.

Best wishes to you too Robert.

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You are right. There are no self-appointed musical 'experts'. There are those who serve others (and who become great for that reason) and those who serve themselves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QuNZ...eature=related

Thanks to StLukesguild also (who desperately tried to get some help when she was asked here to show details of Mozart's 'education' and of his 'musical teaching') by writing to 'experts' on Mozart Forum, but without success. It's all very embarrasing. But what's new ?

In the famous words of Simon and Garfunkel,

'Still a man (or a woman) hears what they want to hear and disregards the rest'.

Viva the Mozart industry ! Patronised by millions for our amusement and mis-education. Never forget that famous slogan of the film 'Amadeus'. 'Everything you've heard is true'. !! And that's official.

LOL !

Best wishes

Robert N.

quoting from my October 30th post....

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Originally Posted by yanni

.........................

The irony of it all:

While I do essentially agree with the author of….

“Pope Benedict is the man on the money.The best analysis yet of the global economic crisis tells how people, not just rules, must change” From The Times July 13, 2009http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article6695104.ece

….on the rather urgent need (conveniently transferred to "people") to seek “God’s mercy” for "our” perpetual blundering "sins", I am also quite alarmed by the fact that he signs as “Lord Griffiths of Fforestfach is a trustee of the Archbishop of Canterbury’s Lambeth Trust and Vice-Chairman of Goldman Sachs International”.

Repentance was never meant to be "comfortable" by definition!

Cheers.

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Here is a "relevant" response by no less than Lord Griffiths boss himself

From The Sunday Times November 8, 2009

I'm doing 'God's work'. Meet Mr Goldman Sachs

....and we then have Musicology expressing his astonishement to discover that Mozart was "somehow" manufactured !

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

I think that I will now turn to my ipod, put on the headphones, turn the volume up quite high and listen to the "Jupiter" symphony by ______ while reading The Tempest by ______. All are welcome to treat the blanks in this post like a madlib while I am busy enjoying good music and good poetry.

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Ha haaa xDD thank you for that!! It completely made my day xD

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Originally Posted by QueenoftheNight

Ha haaa xDD thank you for that!! It completely made my day xD

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Great. It's a good symphony. But the 'Jupiter' Symphony is not by W.A. Mozart. Does it make a difference to your enjoyment of it that those who have examined this subject are telling you it's not by your hero ? Nor is Symphony 39 and Symphony 40. All 3 of these symphonies (known as his last 3) are attributed to Mozart but none was published or even performed during his own lifetime. Nor are they his. The official story goes they were written during a 6 week period in the summer of 1788. In fact, they were not.

But I hope you enjoy listening to them all the same.

If you come across evidence of Mozart being the composer of this symphony please share it with us. But, by the time you arrive at these last works of 'Mozart' you are in a position to predict, accurately, that nothing is ever what it seems to be in the world of 'Mozart studies'.

In 1841 a Scottish writer named Mackay published a book entitled, 'Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds'. We believe as we do for various reasons. Academically, we believe what textbooks say. But, in extreme cases, writers of textbooks and propagandists believe and teach what earlier writers of textbooks say without examining the evidence for themselves. If we multiply this by a thousand times we come close to the mythical Mozart. To the control, in fact, of what is believed and taught of musical history. The extent to which our education is nonsense in these matters hardly matters. We shrug our shoulders because our society does not encourage serious research on the idols of our civilization.

http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache...&hl=en&ct=clnk

Learn how and why Ancient Rome, Greece and Egypt were invented and crafted during Renaissance. Discover the Old Testament as a veiled rendition of events of Middle Ages written centuries after the New Testament. Perceive the Crusaders as contemporaries of The Crucifixion punishing the tormentors of the Messiah. What if Jesus Christ was born in 1053 and crucified in 1086 AD?

Sounds unbelievable? Not after you've read "History: Fiction or Science?" by Anatoly Fomenko, leading mathematician of our time. He follows in steps of Sir Isaac Newton, finds clear evidence of falsification of History by clergy and humanists. Armed with computers, astronomy and statistics he proves the history of humankind to be both dramatically different and drastically shorter than generally presumed.

http://ring.mithec.com/history/content/bach.html

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

I can think of something even more bizzare. The fairy story of one W.A. Mozart, an untutored and uneducated stooge from Salzburg who, with his father, toured Europe for 7 years to huge acclaim from the fraternities and patrons of the Holy Roman Empire but who wrote virtually nothing in that time and who is on record of learning next to nothing of any musical value. This 'genius' of western civilization going on to be credited with some of the finest music of the 18th and any other century, despite a trail of falsehoods and bogus claims from publishers and propagandists which continued up till the time of his death, in late 1791. Being further embellished and invented in the decades after it. So that this story, this bizarre myth, took root and came soon to dominate the musical landscape. And so that the spooks who invented it and propagated it came to preside, as they now do, over the teaching and learning of their own version of 'musical history' with the said Mozart now worshipped and idolised (to the exclusion of virtually all his musical contemporaries and for the purpose of dumbing down the entire musical population).

Fortunately, every work, regardless of how controversial it may be, is worthy of being examined on its own merits. The alternative is to be a Mozartean and to be oblivious to reality itself.

ONLY MOZART IS MUSICAL

(And if you believe that you believe anything ! ).

It has long been standard practice within 'Mozart studies' to insult and abuse those who call 'Mozart's musical genius' into serious question. Here is one small example.

In a newspaper article published in Germany 8 years after Mozart’s death (contained in Volume 1 of the ‘ Allgemeine musikalische Zeitung’ for 1798/9 - on page 547) a man named J.J. Hummel recorded that he had been offered various musical works for publication by the young W.A. Mozart many years earlier while Mozart was on tour in Europe with his father (Leopold) but had rejected them all and had sent them back to Mozart as useless.

This incident is a matter of published record which gives no credit to Mozart. So you will not be surprised to know it is rarely refered to in the Mozart literature. However, in the Mozart biography of Abert he dares to refer to this embarrasing episode and writes -

‘An enterprising publisher in Berlin, Johann Julius Hummel, claimed that, although unmusical, he could cast a critical eye over the works that were submitted to him and see whether they were worth publishing. He did not have a good word to say about Mozart and even boasted that he had returned several of his works as unpublishable'

‘Abert - ‘W.A. Mozart’ (p. 720) - see the following page -

http://books.google.com/books?id=l6I...age&q=&f=false

So, according to Abert (who deserves some credit for refering to this little known incident) J.J. Hummel was a ’boastful’ and ‘unmusical’ man.

But on closer examination of the facts about this Johann Julius Hummel (1728-1798) we find he was in fact a well known music publisher and music printer in the Hague. So much for him being 'unmusical', yes ? Only later did he live in Berlin. Yes, Hummel was highly musical. He and his brother Burchard Hummel (1725-1797) had been in the music business at the Hague since around 1760. Attached as proof is a rare image of the first page of a J.J. Hummel musical catalogue offering more than 300 musical works for sale at the Hague in 1764, these from numerous composers - with its text at the top saying -

‘Des Livres de Musique tante Vocale que Instrumentale qui se vendent chez J.J. Hummel. Marchand & Imprimeur de Musique………….. (1764). Hague. - Musical works for Voice and Instruments on sale at the premises of J.J. Hummel, Merchant and Printer of Music (1764). Hague.

Does it seems strange then that Hummel is described as 'boastful and unmusical' with such facts in front of us ?

J.J. Hummel had in fact (and contrary to the above textbook) been a merchant of music and musical instruments for over 4 years at this time. Here on this first page of his first printed catalogue from the Hague (1764) you can see for sale from him printed scores of symphonies, trios, concertos etc. The following year (1765) this same Hummel, merchant and printer of music, is known to have published a second catalogue of works for sale and between the years 1765-1772 he continued selling music, issuing and printing many others. Copies of Hummel’s later musical catalogues still survive (including one issued in his brother Burchard Hummel’s name dated 1781. A copy of that 1781 catalogue is today still able to be seen in the University Library of Frankfurt). Other catalogues of Hummel are able to be seen today at the Royal Library in the Hague. In fact, F.W. Marpurg mentioned Hummel’s musical business as early as 1760 in a work of his entitled, ‘Aanleiding tot het Clavier-Speelen’.

So the truth is as Hummel reported it in 1798. Young Mozart, on tour with his father Leopold in Holland (after arriving from their long visit to England) offered Hummel at the Hague several musical works for publication during his brief visit there with his father Leopold. But Hummel rejected them as commercially useless. The Mozart industry do not like facts of musical history. So the story had to be invented that it was not Mozart but Hummel who was 'unmusical and boastful’.

Mozart’s knowledge of musical composition by the time of his eventual arrival in Italy was virtually nil. As is again proved by recent musical analysis of Mozart's musical examination paper kept today in Bolgona, Italy - an entrance exam taken shortly after his arrival in Bologna. (Recently analysed in detail by musicologists Professor Luca Bianchini and others in Italy from the surviving documents).

But why let facts get in the way of a good fairy story ? Below is an image of J.J. Hummel's musical catalogue issued at the Hague in 1764. Case closed. Yet another example of falsehood in the Mozart story. Hummel was very musical. It was his business to be musical. He published and printed many hundreds of musical works, from symphonies to concertos, from sonatas to trios and quartets. So, which do you believe, the Mozart industry or the facts of history ?

:)

"The Carriers of Enlightment: Mozart and Rousseau in the 18th century Europe" ,by Sibelle Karakelle of Mehmet Akif Ersoy University, Turkey, 2007

http://www.idosi.org/hssj/hssj2(1)07/4.pdf

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Originally Posted by yanni

"The Carriers of Enlightment: Mozart and Rousseau in the 18th century Europe" ,by Sibelle Karakelle of Mehmet Akif Ersoy University, Turkey, 2007

http://www.idosi.org/hssj/hssj2(1)07/4.pdf

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Yes Yanni,

Both Voltaire and Rousseau, these two celebrated philosophers of the 'Englightenment' were actually employed as agents of the Venetian oligarchy in France and England. (An occultist system emerged from Venice which began to take over England's government from the time of Henry 8th onwards. In fact, Venetian bankers were in control of England, financially, by the time of Henry 8th's death. So that Britain with occultist Venetian assistance became a mercantile empire, slave trader and usury specialist for centuries - the same as the oligarchical state of Venice and in the 18th century it was occultism supported by Venice and its oligarchical occultism which created England's banking system and their later Empire. The funding came from Venice to found the Bank of England. Venice and occultist Venetian ideas similarly infiltrated the government and society of Protestant Holland. (One of whose results was creation of the Dutch East India Company). In fact Rousseau, so-called 'englightenment' philosopher was privately paid during his time in England by none other than the East India Company and payment records to him still exist today in the British Library. Voltaire too. The British Empire and the British banking system was a product of the model given to them by these oligarchical and occultist Venetians. The 'Enlightenment' focused on France but it was really the new secularised (and occultist) way to gain control of parts of Europe not directly under the Holy Roman Empire. Of which France and England were two examples. Since France had formally expelled the Jesuit Order back in 1762. In their new guise they returned to become pioneers of the 'Englightenment'. Corrupting science and corrupting culture despite their much vaunted 'Encyclopaedia'. Their aim was of course to ultimately extend the influence of Catholicism in lands which would otherwise not accept them. In fact, the first powerful supporter of the Jesuit Order and of Ignatius Loyola(when the new, military, Jesuit Order were first seeking to be established in Rome as an order of the Catholic church) had been none other than one patron of theirs, Cardinal Contarini, himself a Venetian. (The Contarini family had supplied no less than 7 doges to the Venetian state over the centuries). Out of Venice came so much occultism. Again, support for Isaac Newton's bogus reputation as a 'great scientist' also (who was really a plagiarist of earlier ideas of the German scientist Liebnitz - Newton being nothing but an alchemist. Newton (like Shakespeare before him) was promoted by the Venetian faction in England and elsewhere). The 'Englightenment' (so-called) was an 18th century movement to secularise but also to infiltrate governments of nations not loyal to the Holy Roman Empire. And it was brilliantly successful. Out of 'enlightenment' England came, in 1717, the Freemasons. (That too had been developed out of Venetian occultism by Venetians already influential in England and others who had great influence elsewhere). The story of Mozart involves many little known links with occultist Venice. In fact, it was none other than occultist Abbe G. Ortes of Venice who had met and guided Mozart and his father around Venice on their visit there. Ortes being the fool who wrote a book on the need to control global populations, copied in the 19th century by the occultist Malthus).

So, yes, Rousseau and Voltaire, 'heroes' of French literature. Whose real careers are hardly known.