Atheists....

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Originally Posted by emily655321

Sorry, Xamonas, don't mean to nit-pick, but ... Catholics, who do not believe Christian denomination makes a difference to the fate of one's soul.

That's all. :D

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Emily's right. Catholic doctrine does not restrict Protestants (I'm not sure about non-Christians; I would have to look it up) from going to heaven. Some of these are folklore, rather than doctrine. For instance, there is nothing in Christian doctrine that says if an infant is not babptized and it dies, it goes to hell or limbo. But everyone thinks that.

This is an interesting thread. As someone who has gone from both sides of this at sometime in my life, I hear recurring themes.

hmmmmmmmmmmm

Emily,

I apologise for using the words 'any catholic' in my statement. It should of course be replaced by 'most catholics'. My error.

Beowulflee,

This point has been covered many times but bears repeating. Atheists believe that there is no god. We do not merely not believe, but actively believe in the absence of a creator from the universe.

Would you consider it 'negative' to believe there is no Santa? Or no Yeti?

Do you consider all negative words equally stupid? Uninformed, for instance? A stupid word; by your definition, it tells you what you aren't but not what you are, in exactly the same way as atheist. Imprecise? Immature? More stupid and meaningless words according to your theory.

To me, not only are they not 'stupid', but instead they serve as a very accurate description of your last post.

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Originally Posted by beowulflee

This thread is so stupid. Atheist is defined on a negative, meaning that it tells you what the person does not believe in. It does not tell you what the person believes in. The end, /gg.

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stupid-

adj 1: lacking or marked by lack of intellectual acuity

You use a device which you yourself rebuke. Also, by telling someone what you don't believe in, aren't you telling them what you DO believe in? Not saying no means saying yes, and not saying yes means no. We're forced to make choices in life, most of which are binomial in nature: you have to pick this or that. You don't pick this, you get that. You don't pick that, you get this. You can state your beliefs or you can't, but either way you're making a stance. Good day.

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Originally Posted by XXdarkclarityXX

Not saying no means saying yes, and not saying yes means no.

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I'm afraid the world isn't that simple, hon. You can get yourself in sticky situations thinking that way about some things. People, for instance. Especially in matters of religion and other things metaphysical, the world is one big grey area.

Emily,

What I was talking about when I said that was relative to decisions because they CAN'T be gray...at least the outcome. The reasoning can be gray, along with the situation and circumstances surrounding the decision, but in the end you have to make a choice. That's what I think is black or white.

For example, imagine you are standing in the middle of two train tracks and there is a train on the right track. You have your husband on the right side of the track and your son on the left side of the track, both of whom are tied down and have no way of getting loose. You also have the train lever, which can make the train go on the left track. If you don't act, your husband dies because the direction of the train doesn't change. If you do act, you save your husband. Is the decision bogged down by very gray circumstances and thoughts? Can you immediately make such a difficult choice? No, you can't, and that part is gray. BUT.....eventually, you've got to do something. By not acting, you save your son. By acting, you save your husband. You've got to make a choice either way, and each choice has definitive consequences. That's what I meant by what I said, and I hope I have clarified my thoughts for you.

Your thoughts are clear, XXdarkclarityXX, I'm just taking issue with the idea that all situations are black and white. There are, such as in the rather outlandish and unrelated example you use, situations which have only two choices. I'm saying that I disagree with applying such logic to matters of religion. Your logic—in saying that "not saying no means yes, and not saying yes means no"—runs with the "you're either with us or you're against us" idea, which I've always disliked. In that specific instance, in the difference between saying "yes" and "no," there are vast amounts of grey area. In short, "not saying yes" does not mean saying "no," it means exactly what it says: not saying one thing or the other. It could possibly mean saying "maybe," it could possibly mean saying "I don't know," or it could possibly mean that one does indeed have an opinion one way or another, but chooses to stay publicly non-committal. Those are not "grey areas" leading up to a black and white statement, they are statements in themselves; that's the sort of grey area I mean.

I don't mean to attack you on semantics, but it seems to me an important distinction to make. I understand your point, I'm just disagreeing with it. :)

Emily,

Semantics are a viable target within my argument...no harm done. I think what might be good is if others discuss what they think, because between us we've exposed two huge schools of thought regarding decision making and it might be good to see what others believe.

Yo guyz..

Am here on this earth for a reason .. I should have a belief in something ..my job is to reach the TRUE instead of doubting the whole thing right?

Loki …and the others.. lets speak rationally ..

Even without the Holy books… do u think that God is there just to answer YOUR prayers ???
Sorry this is not logic..
And sorry if someone treated u so bad in your childhood and made u blame the sky..
And sorry if u wanted just to be a copy of some famous “screwed up writers” who failed to reach the truth and bluffed a lot..!
But God created us to worship him not to jump on trees and eat like……..!!
Look around u and count the blessings if u could… rivers….food…family……….. beautiful sky…roses….health….air…everything

No..look inside you…you have a beating heart…eyes to see…a mind to think..
Do you think that God made you just to answer ur prayers?????
Do you think you are here just to be here and get ill ..or die ????

Am really Sorry..but this is Mega Stupid ...and am praying for YO all to be reasonable..



PS :

SIR honey I agree with ur wisdom here “the problem with the dogmatic believers is that they never think that their dogma/doctrine might be questionable ... one doesn't need a very high iq to understand that the hundreds of Christian dogmas have tremendous gaps because they are MADE BY PEOPLE with more or less genius, with slight or serious psychological problems and with heaps of religious fanaticism.”

But I hope you look more in something else instead of neglecting all..!

“even though i am more scared of the people with a firm belief...the inquisitors were 100% sure they were right and those who didn't believe in their god deserved to dye, the Muslim kamikazes are 100% sure they are right and if u don't believe what they believe they have the right to kill u.
a man who doubts would never kill or give his life on behalf of an idea .”



you say Firm belief ??

Most Muslims have firm believes I think and they don’t kill others…

but those stupid kamikazes believe if they kill – what they call- nonbelievers they will go to Paradise alone and God will love them alone ..On the other hand, Some of them think of it as a revenge to these stupid un necessary Wars the US leading upon the world.

Muslim kamikazes will rest in deep HELL, if you want my opinion ,for killing the innocent people everywhere, By the way, one Muslim priest wrote in a message dedicated to the world that Islam is not about killing at all …….. and that they are not forcing the beliefs on those who don’t believe .. those so-called “Muslim” FREAKS are killing their OWN people ..i think they are either crazy or just a depressed gang of Losers in their countries.. that’s all..


“I said life after death is nothingness”

Dear Dyrwen.. I believe we will be punished for our committed sins,, and prized for our good deeds.. what would encourage me to do good deeds in this life if I knew am not paid back in the afterlife ..!!

In other words :

How can I encourage my son to succeed in the Final Exam if I don’t promise him a reward ..or at least a threat in case he fails..???

answer that ..

Do not say he will feel good by succeeding ..i can kill somebody and feel as good as a winner of the Super Ball !!


thanx

something else,
Dear MiSaNthrOpE ,

“Take Adam and Eve, for example. Adam and Eve eat from the Tree of Knowledge and God punishes them. First, God must have planted the Tree in the first place, and second, what does that say about Him except that he wants his followers to be ignorant”

Yah, you maybe right in that but
…I’ve read another version about Adam and Eve in an English copy of the Quran ..

God asked Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree… Lucifer seduced them claiming that God doesn’t want them to be knowledgeable -which was a lie- .. so they ate and disobeyed God’s order ..that’s why they were punished.. for their disobedience ..

As for “Atheists do good things purely because they want to and find satisfaction in it”
Again…I disagree … coz Again I can do a bad thing and Find satisfaction too !!!!
God encouraged us to do good deeds and promised us Paradise..


“Maybe this sounds rough, but have I not said time and again that the best sermon you preach is how you live and act, and the way you treat others? Attitude counts for a lot. As in sales, presentation counts for a lot. Sharing and caring means more than trying to force things down people's throats.”

Bliss ya 4 that

thank u all and sorry

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Originally Posted by falling*moon

How can I encourage my son to succeed in the Final Exam if I don’t promise him a reward ..or at least a threat in case he fails..???

answer that ..

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Because it is beneficial to his eventual well-being. Those exact words might not be the most effective, but that's the general idea. The concept of delayed gratification is a critical one. Plus, as any sitcom writer or ironic playwright knows, it is the flow of information that defines interaction. Some of the most awkward, uncomfortable, or downright terrible situations on earth, fictional or otherwise, stem from lack of information.

Okay, I digressed there significantly, but I think the reason why one should do well in their Final Exams is the same reason why "stupid" is considered an insult. We live in the Information Age--the more you know, the easier things get.

falling moon,

Have you ever tried to write a coherent, gramatically correct essay? Are you aware that most rhetorical arguments lose substantial credibility when they are not correctly formulated?

Secondly, you are under an unproven assumption that there IS something to doubt. How do you know that "God" wants us to worship him? Prove to me there's something to worship and then I'll start worshiping something. "God", falling moon, is jut a set of ideals. Goodness, charity, honor, selflessness.....those are all qualities displayed by stories which depict this "God". But what we are meant to follow are these ideals themselves, and we shouldn't believe that there's a person who actually hears everyone's prayers and brings people back to life. The scripture stories all show that following these IDEALS will allow you to be rewarded in the form of other people thinking well of you. Prayer is just a confidence booster, there's no one listening to that prayer except yourself. It boosts your confidence and gives you hope because by speaking to an imaginary friend (the equivilant to God) you've complained to someone else. Then, when something good happens, you can praise "God" for answering your incessant complaints. When something bad happens, all of a sudden you've created a scapegoat. Did you do badly on a test that you had prayed about the night before? Don't blame God, and don't say it's his will! It's yours! You shape your choices. Why would you believe in something that states that you don't have total control over your life?

I apologize for the certain level of rambling, wherever apparent within the above text. Thank you and I welcome responses.

Edited by Logos to remove flames

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Emily's right. Catholic doctrine does not restrict Protestants (I'm not sure about non-Christians; I would have to look it up) from going to heaven. Some of these are folklore, rather than doctrine. For instance, there is nothing in Christian doctrine that says if an infant is not babptized and it dies, it goes to hell or limbo. But everyone thinks that.

This is an interesting thread. As someone who has gone from both sides of this at sometime in my life, I hear recurring themes.

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Just to be clear on Catholic doctrine of non-Catholics and going to heaven, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which is the official position of teaching by the Roman Catholic church, states the following:

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Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience--those too may achieve eternal salvation.

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(Paragraph 847)
So, you do not have to be Roman Catholic or even Christian under Roman Catholic teaching to get into heaven. What the criteria is, as I read it, is to do God's will, which I believe to mean, love thy neighbor and love God. Not too dificult, even if you don't know about Christianity.

I'm guessing, though, those of us that do know about Christianity but deny it will be playing flexibility-based party games for the rest of eternity?

Everybody, LIMBO!!