D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

The only thing I can think of in that scene is that the night and the evening stars and the moon all suggest a female power. These are elements of the goddess Artemis, a female virgin goddess of hunt and the moon. She actually slays several men who desired her. I think that fits well with this story. You can read about it her here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemis. The more I read this story, the more I'm convinced that lawrence is thinking along classical lines. It could be that Lawrence is suggesting Wini gains strength of the evening. It's sort of unusual to set this that late in the evening I think, so it's very conscious effort on Lawrence's part.

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

I was wondering if Winifred's power over Coutts was becoming so great, she was "stealing" power from the moon and the stars. It sounded silly to me at first, but maybe not. Lawrence is so symbolic, but that's one of the things I really like about him.

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I think that's what I'm trying to say. Whether Lawrence means it literally or metaphorically is speculative.

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

I was wondering if Winifred's power over Coutts was becoming so great, she was "stealing" power from the moon and the stars. It sounded silly to me at first, but maybe not. Lawrence is so symbolic, but that's one of the things I really like about him.

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I do not know if "stealing" is quite the right word, but considering the Pagan/Witch symbolisim used in the story, it is true that moon phases as well as the stars often play an important role in casting spells, and preforming certian rituals. The moon would be imporant to Winifred as the "witch" trying to enchant Coutts. Different phases of the moon, are calculated as being good for different types of magical activity, as well as the alignement of the stars often play a role in spell casting.

But symbolicaly speaking the idea of the moon and the stars would bear imporatnce to the allusion of Winni as a witch. She is not a litteral witch, but is cast in the role as one. As later they mention her "reading a crystal ball" so the imporance of the moon would tie in with the idea of witchcraft that is being spun through the story.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

But symbolicaly speaking the idea of the moon and the stars would bear imporatnce to the allusion of Winni as a witch. She is not a litteral witch, but is cast in the role as one. As later they mention her "reading a crystal ball" so the imporance of the moon would tie in with the idea of witchcraft that is being spun through the story.

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That might be true, but why not a full moon then?

Isn't a new moon barely a thin sliver of moon or light? Coutts did refer to it as looking like a knife for a sacrifice. I know specifically that evening and morning star is very magical for Lawrence and for his symbolic thinking. He felt this time between day and night was a very spiritual and mystical time. Now too, the moon and the star has disappeared from their site and the two of them are emerced in darkness basically. Could this mean they are now darkened to reality - thrown into this other-world where anything is possible? I can see Winifred being associated with the goddess idea.

I am working on the next section of text offline; I will probably post that this evening with some comments; then I hope all of you comment and give us idea on this part. It is an interesting section when they discuss this idea of symbolism in their speech to each other.

Well the New Moon phase has just as much imporance in the use of witcfract as the full moon phase, and in fact the New Moon is often seen as a good time for begining endevarous relating to love, because it is seen as a moment for new beginings. It could also represent Coutt's new "revelation" regaurding his relationship with Connie, and his realization that he should not marry her. As the new moon can also represent the idea of a "breaking away" which could relating to his first vision of seeing the moon like a knife.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

Well the New Moon phase has just as much imporance in the use of witcfract as the full moon phase, and in fact the New Moon is often seen as a good time for begining endevarous relating to love, because it is seen as a moment for new beginings. It could also represent Coutt's new "revelation" regaurding his relationship with Connie, and his realization that he should not marry her. As the new moon can also represent the idea of a "breaking away" which could relating to his first vision of seeing the moon like a knife.

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Wow, that is really interesting! Is it really representative of 'breaking away' or even 'starting a new relationship'? If so, that would relate to the idea of the moon like a knife - but would it? I think he thought of his being married, that he would be sacrificed. Maybe this image has two meanings. If it is a breaking away and connected with sacrifice then it could mean breaking with Winifred and not with Connie as I was just thinking. I had heard of the New Moon being a sort of witching time of the cycle. I will have to look more up on that idea online...it is interesting.
Dark Muse, from now on, we will have to call you the pagan/witch advisor to this thread! ;) :lol:

LOL ok, yes, the New Moon is often seen as a good time, both for the begining of a new relationship, as well as times of change, and starting something new, breaking from things of the past. The new moon can be seen as a starting over time.

I think the idea of the sacrifice does have more than one possible meaning in the story. Though I have not thought about the idea of his breaking from Winni, with the end scene I can see how that might be.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

LOL ok, yes, the New Moon is often seen as a good time, both for the begining of a new relationship, as well as times of change, and starting something new, breaking from things of the past. The new moon can be seen as a starting over time.

I think the idea of the sacrifice does have more than one possible meaning in the story. Though I have not thought about the idea of his breaking from Winni, with the end scene I can see how that might be.

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Yes, that end scene may confirm this idea and also breaking from his past. In my commentary book, Michael Black sites the ending as a sort of ritual of fire in a circle, that finally separates Coutts from the 'spell' and his past connection to Winifred. I think this is true. He is 'exorcised' from both, in this 'circle of flame/fire' scene. Later Lawrence would adopt the phoenix as his symbol. The phoenix bird burns down to ash and is reborn from the ashes. You can see where the roots of these L ideas originate, also.

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Originally Posted by Dark Muse

Well the New Moon phase has just as much imporance in the use of witcfract as the full moon phase, and in fact the New Moon is often seen as a good time for begining endevarous relating to love, because it is seen as a moment for new beginings. It could also represent Coutt's new "revelation" regaurding his relationship with Connie, and his realization that he should not marry her. As the new moon can also represent the idea of a "breaking away" which could relating to his first vision of seeing the moon like a knife.

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The lunar symbolism is difficult to untangle, but I think you're right about its importance in the story. I wonder, though, whether Coutts ever realizes that he should not marry Connie. While he does pursue this encounter with Winifred, does that necessarily mean that he's trying to avoid marriage with Connie?

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Originally Posted by Janine

I am working on the next section of text offline; I will probably post that this evening with some comments

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Is the next section going to have more of their dialogue, or are you going to skip into the following scene?

Before we move on, I wanted to write about one last idea. At the beginning of the last section Janine posted Lawrence says:

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At last, on the high-up, naked down, they came upon those meaningless pavements that run through the grass, waiting for the houses to line them.

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The road they use to get to the hill, and the one that Winifred is leading Coutts down, is a "meaningless" strip of pavement. Since we're doing such a close reading of this part, I thought I should point out that this sentence is quite revealing. It describes how pointless this meeting is since the two of them can never be together. The path they are taking is "meaningless" because it can lead to nothing.

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

Quark, what a terrific insight. It's true, they are on a meaningless path, both physically and emotionally.

Janine, do you know if Lawrence was well versed in witchcraft? I know he made heavy use of symbolism, but I don't know about witchcraft.

When I read the part about the moon being like a knife, I took it to mean a warning to Coutts, that either he or his relationship to Connie would be sacrificed, but it could mean more, of course.

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Yes, Quark, excellent insight about the road. I had wondered about the significance of that statement several times and your take on it makes perfect sense. I liked the rest of your post, too. Good thinking. I am about to post the next part of the text - been working on it offline just now.
Yes, Antiquarian, I agree that part about the moon could have much significance that is not easily interpretted - perhaps various meanings or possibilies, depending on how his encounter would end. It may be a variable. I don't honestly know if L knew of witchcraft, but I know he was always interested in myth and pagan ideas; sure, I would assume witchcraft would fit in perfectly with these ideas, as well.
Dark Muse, I agree with your post, too.


Ok, here it is -

NEXT PART OF THE TEXT:

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"You are staying down here?" she asked at length, in a forced voice. She never intruded a hair's-breadth on the most trifling privacy; in which she was Laura's antithesis; so that this question was almost an impertinence for her. He felt her shrink.

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Here he pretty much says that by her question she is doing something totally against her usual nature; it would be something natural for Laura to do as we saw in the first part of the story; but for Winifred he feels her ‘shrink’ from this invasion into his privacy. Once again he is seeing a difference in Winifred towards him; as later we see the surprise he has about the red flowers on the piano.
Also, she is trying to find out from him, his sleeping arrangements for the night with undermines his own sense of privacy and honesty; she may be prying to see his reaction and determine what his real intentions are.

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"Till the morning--then Yorkshire," he said cruelly.
He hated it that she could not bear outspokenness.

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So even though he is seeing her now so much altered, he hates this ‘outspokenness’ in Winifred.

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At that moment a train across the valley threaded the opposite darkness with its gold thread. The valley re-echoed with vague threat. The two watched the express, like a gold-and-black snake, curve and dive seawards into the night. He turned, saw her full, fine face tilted up to him. It showed pale, distinct, and firm, very near to him. He shut his eyes and shivered.

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Interesting paragraph here, entirely. I have a lot of questions about this one paragraph. I find the words and phrases I underlined so curious and fascinating. I am not entirely sure of their meanings. I was wondering what significance the ‘opposite darkness’ has. Why did the valley ‘re-echoe with vague thread?’ I know he feels a threat here, but wondered why exactly the valley is described this way – is it civilization encroaching on nature? I especially love this ‘gold-and-black’ snake image to describe the train and I think that futher indicates a threat in Coutt’s mind; snakes would for Lawrence. I am not sure – is it actually heading seawards? Right after his keen observance of the train, he turns to Winifred to observe her ‘full, fine face;’ he also uses the words ‘pale, distinct, firm’; and yet his eyes now shut and he shivers – why? Is it fear of her and his own reactions towards her? Or does he know then that he is headed in the wrong direction – like the train – the opposite direction?

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"I hate trains," he said, impulsively.
"Why?" she asked, with a curious, tender little smile that caressed, as it were, his emotion towards her.
"I don't know; they pitch one about here and there . . ."

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I almost see these lines as decribing the way he feels with Winifred – being pitched here and there like the train would pitch one, with uncertainity.

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"I thought," she said, with faint irony, "that you preferred change."

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Curious that she says this about him ‘preferring change’, because so far, throughout the text, we see little changes presented in this return to Winifred, but they are subtle changes, yet important I think in Coutt’s mind or subconscious.

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"I do like life. But now I should like to be nailed to something, if it were only a cross."
She laughed sharply, and said, with keen sarcasm:
"Is it so difficult, then, to let yourself be nailed to a cross? I thought the difficulty lay in getting free."

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This whole concept is so interesting to me because later this idea of ‘crosses’ and ‘crucifixion’ is so prominent in Lawrence’ works. Also, this being ‘nailed to something’ is almost reminiscent of another short story we read in which the woman claims she is part of the land. In someway if he married, Connie, he too would be part of the land, nailed to that cross, fixed and not free to go as he is free now. Winifred says the difficulty is getting free – that too, is quite interesting.

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He ignored her sarcasm on his engagement.
"There is nothing now that matters," he said, adding quickly, to forestall her: "Of course I'm wild when dinner's late, and so on; but . . . apart from those things . . . nothing seems to matter."

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Quark, here is the passage about the sarcasm on his engagement so before the scene leading up to this passage could not have been a response to her sarcasm about his up and coming marriage.
He admits – ‘that nothing seems to matter’ – I would say he is pretty blaze about his engagement – he is half-hearted about the whole matter.

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She was silent.
"One goes on—remains in office, so to speak; and life's all right—only, it [bdoesn't seem to matter."[/b]

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It is like he sees marriage as an ‘office’ and, then he concludes that ‘life’s all right’ and ‘it doesn’t seem to matter (to him?)’. Doesn’t seem much like the expendent bride-groom, does he. Like I said he is blah about it all.

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"This does sound like complaining of trouble because you've got none," she laughed.
"Trouble . . ." he repeated. "No, I don't suppose I've got any. Vexation, which most folk call trouble; but something I really grieve about in my soul—no, nothing. I wish I had."

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Again, indicating that he has no real complaints and yet one can see he not happy – he is just existing.

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She laughed again sharply; but he perceived in her laughter a little keen despair.

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So her laughter is covering up her true feelings. When he said she laughed 'sharply' I wondered if the laugher was not more like anger/annoyance or being critical of Coutts careless attitude.

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Originally Posted by Janine

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At that moment a train across the valley threaded the opposite darkness with its gold thread. The valley re-echoed with vague threat. The two watched the express, like a gold-and-black snake, curve and dive seawards into the night. He turned, saw her full, fine face tilted up to him. It showed pale, distinct, and firm, very near to him. He shut his eyes and shivered.

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Interesting paragraph here, entirely. I have a lot of questions about this one paragraph. I find the words and phrases I underlined so curious and fascinating. I am not entirely sure of their meanings. I was wondering what significance the ‘opposite darkness’ has. Why did the valley ‘re-echoe with vague thread?’ I know he feels a threat here, but wondered why exactly the valley is described this way – is it civilization encroaching on nature? I especially love this ‘gold-and-black’ snake image to describe the train and I think that futher indicates a threat in Coutt’s mind; snakes would for Lawrence. I am not sure – is it actually heading seawards? Right after his keen observance of the train, he turns to Winifred to observe her ‘full, fine face;’ he also uses the words ‘pale, distinct, firm’; and yet his eyes now shut and he shivers – why? Is it fear of her and his own reactions towards her? Or does he know then that he is headed in the wrong direction – like the train – the opposite direction?

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That is a fascinating paragragh. I had not noticed that before. What a marvelous image: two opposing sheets of darkness threaded together by the train. Actually not threaded together but being threaded through the train's motion. And her pale face contrasts nicely with the black sky, making it so vivid. I can't help but think this is a sexual allusion. Her pale face waiting for the snake to thread them together. :blush: Sorry about that, but that's what I think Lawrence is suggesting. Actually, unless it's my dirty mind playing with me, :p :lol: there's a lot of sexual suggestiveness in that paragragh. I won't spell it out because then I'll really blush. ;) Perhaps this is where the witch's charm is placed on him. So here's a question. Is the charm that Wini puts on Coutts a sexual spell?

Considering the Pagan symbolism used in the story, snakes in Paganism were a good thing. It was Christianity that made them bad. Snakes in ancient times stood for rebirth, transformation, sometimes eternal life, because of fact that they shed their skin.

Oh I wasn't thinking good or bad. I was thinking phallic.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

That is a fascinating paragragh. I had not noticed that before. What a marvelous image: two opposing sheets of darkness threaded together by the train. Actually not threaded together but being threaded through the train's motion. And her pale face contrasts nicely with the black sky, making it so vivid. I can't help but think this is a sexual allusion. Her pale face waiting for the snake to thread them together. :blush: Sorry about that, but that's what I think Lawrence is suggesting. Actually, unless it's my dirty mind playing with me, :p :lol: there's a lot of sexual suggestiveness in that paragragh. I won't spell it out because then I'll really blush. ;) Perhaps this is where the witch's charm is placed on him. So here's a question. Is the charm that Wini puts on Coutts a sexual spell?

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Virgil, Good observation and I don't want to know what is in your mind that you won't spell out. :lol: ...I don't care to see you blush:blush:
I think you might have something here. I keep thinking back to that scene in 'Sun' when the snake appeared out of the rocks and then retreated back. I don't know if there is a relationship here. I must look that passage up in 'Sun'. Do you think by any chance it also was a black and gold snake or a gold colored snake? Anyway, I do think snakes can have many connotations and suggest much. The way they are used in this paragraph is suggestive of a joining of the two sides into a central union of the train/snake image and symbolism. I imagine, if Lawrence has as dirty a mind as you do Virgil, he may intend this to mean what you suggest. I guess he was not known for paving the way to abolishing censorship and supporting freedom of speech for nothing.
I think, as Dark Muse has pointed out snakes are used often in Paganism as a good thing:

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Considering the Pagan symbolism used in the story, snakes in Paganism were a good thing. It was Christianity that made them bad. Snakes in ancient times stood for rebirth, transformation, sometimes eternal life, because of fact that they shed their skin.

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Dark Muse, That would make sense, wouldn't it? It very well, could represent to Coutts, a 'charm' type symbol or to his subconscious thinking; remember they are talking in a 'code of symbols' and Coutts, himself, is thinking in this way from the start. Why not have this train be a symbol for Coutts, as well? From the beginning of the story, Coutts has viewed things in a symbolic way, such as the 'new moon' and the 'evening star', even the 'church tower', the 'Venus statue' on the mantle. All these, seem to me, to be leading him onward, towards his own temptation. I think we can see where Lawrence is leading us with the symbolism and it all does suggest this possibility of sexual union with Winifred. I would assume up until now, Coutts has been denied by Winifred, of the complete physical union and now he probably thinks, in the back of his mind, this time may be different, now that I have broken away to marry someone else; Winifred may 'give in', in order to try and keep the connection between us. I don't think this is totally conscious on Coutts part from the beginning but as the story progresses with Winifred seducing him onward, along with these seductive symbols it becomes more evident to his conscious mind.

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I would think the image of a snake would be bad, but I read somewhere that the color gold and trains were "good" symbols to Lawrence. I'm sure Janine could tell us more.

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Antiquarian, to your last line, I have to say, I probably don't know much more than you. Only can surmise from my reading and research. You see the more you think you have Lawrence and his symbolism figured out, the more you see he goes and does exactly the reverse, or the symbol takes on new meanings for him; this is hard to explain. I don't know about the early fiction and the symbolism with snakes, only a few things I read in the Michael Black commentaries. Trains come to mind to me, in the novel "Women in Love" when Gerald approaches a fast passing train, makes his young mare stand against her will, even whipping (beating) her on the sides, at the crossing as the train thunders past; in this scene the train represents a kind of (male?) power and even the power of industrialism reigning down on the land. but later Lawrence seem to view snakes in a more positive light and definitely they became good things and noble things. In his later works he writes of snakes often. In the "The Plumed Serpent" and definitely viewed snakes are a deity and empowering of male virility. It is hard to determine exactly what Lawrence is attributing to the two images; snake and train in this passage except to think of it as a symbol of union of male/female. Perhaps he viewed the 'dark' as the mysterious power or masculine and the 'light' as the woman/feminine. The intertwining would be the union that Virgil suggests. Probably later, Lawrence did view trains in a much more favorable light - afterall they took on new meaning for him personally from the ones that transported the coal of his childhood and represented industrialism, coal mining. They later became his chief way of getting to locations he would desire to travel to. Train travel was the chief means at the time; that and ships; prior to airplanes. He had to accept them as good things eventually. Between the younger Lawrence and the older one is a huge breath of space and ways of thinking.

I will run a research on 'snakes' in my Lawrence books. I am sure I can come up with tons of information on them. Lawrence very liberally used snakes in his writings, always. He also wrote a very interesting poem; I think it is just called "Snake". I will look that up and post it here. You will all find it quite interesting.

I don't know how much I can post today. I am having a problem with my right eye; dry eye and an erosion today. I have had them before and one has to lay off the computer screen and use drops and moisture until it heals itself. What a pain it is! Anyway, I posted that part last night, and have some more ready to go once that is discussed. So anyway you all can discuss the section I posted last night, even if I am not here. The passage has enough in it to discuss - more than just the train/snake image - what is said between Coutts and Winifred is quite interesting, I think. Have fun figuring it all out! I will check in later on....