D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Virgil

That's an understatement. ;)

Actually that's an even bigger understatement. :lol:

Yes, I ooked. :p

---

Virgil, you really made me laugh, too! :lol: you always do!!!;)
I just 'ooked' somethings up, and also took everyone's recent posts and put them into this one to answer:

Quotes by Antiquarian

Quote:

---

Good observation, Virgil. It'll be interesting going back to see how both are described. This story is so much more complex that I first gave it credit for being, and I'm glad.

---

Yes, the story is complex; all of Lawrence’s stories have proved to be so far, at least the ones we have discussed. Actually, Antiquarian, when I first read over this story, looking for possible stories to pick for discussion, this one did not impress me as much as it does now. Of course, by now I have read it at least 3 or 4 times and parts of it, as I went along in much closer scrutiny. It does help to look at parts of the story separate from the whole and see what might be lurking there, just beneath the surface. It is interesting, isn’t it? We have all learned so much from these discussions and this thread. We would all get A’s on a final exam! :lol: I am so glad you have been enjoying it. I knew you would.

Quote:

---

Thank you, Janine. I hope we're both feeling terrific the whole weekend!

---

Thanks, Antiquarian, I slept well and went to bed a tad earlier than I have been; I even turned the computer off earlier. I think this is what I need to do every night, actually. However, I woke up suddenly at 9 and when I got back into bed my left leg is aching something fierce - probably a flairup of sciatica. It is some better but it is damp out today and miserable here - rainy. Hope it is better there and you have a great weekend!

Quotes by Virgil

Quote:

---

The nude statue of Venus is clearly associated with the corsetless Winifred. Lawrence never mentions what the other statue is like. Is it an exact replica? He calls one "the Venus" which implies the other is not. But clearly there are two statues, like there are two women in his subconscious. But it's almost as if the other statue goes out of Coutt's consciousness. Just like Connie, perhaps?

---

I can now that that is one possibility…two women and the subconscious/conscious idea. It might also be a man and woman statue – he representing the man. I don’t know but I wish Mr. L had given us a bit more information on that.

Quote by Antiquarian

Quote:

---

I would say that's a very good assumption, Virgil. That Connie leaves Coutts' consciousness when Winifred begins to enchant him. I hadn't remembered that the second statue was not described. Thanks for reposting that.

---

Oh, I did go back to read that passage. It just mentions them and that one is “leaned slightly forward”…I wonder if by not mentioning the one descriptively Lawrence is just directing our attention to one of the statues – the one that stands out. Maybe the other means nothing actually. If he had wanted it to mean anything wouldn’t he have told us what who that one represented or if it were the same, unless in his eyes pair means totally matching or a duplicate of each other. I don’t know if we can be totally certain of the full meaning but it is fun to derive ones own personal take on it.

Quote by Dark Muse:

Quote:

---

“Both were nude figures. They glistened under the side lamps, rose clean and distinct from their pedestals.”
Yes, that is true, we are told that there are two nude figures but we are given no account of the second one, whatever it may be. It seems the second statue would be Connie.

As it says "they rose distinct from thier pedastals"

Perhaps this also means they are distinct from each other, being very different, the way Connie is quite distinct from Winni

Also interesting use of the word "pedastal"

In some regards, Coutts does put both women on a pedastal, but in very different ways.

---

Dark Muse, This is an interesting ‘take’ on the idea also; and the pedestal is mentioned specifically so this could suggest the idea you propose. Also, Coutts might view Winifred as cold like alabaster; we certainly know she was described as white and linked with the cold moon image of whiteness and of mystery.

DM, I think I know the exact passage you will be referring to later. Is it the one about Connie? I was reviewing that part of the story the other night and realized it does reveal more about Connie and their relationship, than I had previously observed. That one paragraph nicely sums up the way things are between them, which reveals the problem with their relationship, I believe. I won't mention it until you do when we get to that part, if that is what you are referring to.
Yes, I would agree that Coutts most definitely puts Connie on a pedestal. I don’t know if I entirely agree that he puts Winifred on one. I feel rather the opposite Winifred puts herself on the pedestal and wishes Coutts to worship her; and Coutts wishes take her down from that pedestal and treat her as a woman, take her into the natural world of the body and blood; the sexual human union; as opposed to the union of a ‘worshipping knight to a goddess’, as he interacts with Connie.

Quote by Virgil

Quote:

---

Mirror seems to be associated with the moon and the night and water. All symbols of the female.

---

Quark, What Virgil posted seems to make sense. I think too, it relates to images reflected, and the crystal ball idea, that Coutts brings up later on, when he is at Winifred’s house. To Coutts as well, Winifred never makes herself quite 'real' to him in the flesh and blood sense, so she is a mere reflection of what he would like her to be towards him, in a sense. Also, the mirror could be a mirror to reflect Coutt's 'conscience' that Coutts is constantly holding within his mind, knowing he is self-examining and seeing his own temptation and wrong-doing, as he goes along. Very near the end of the story, Coutts blurts out, (in his mind) “to the other woman he was false”….this would be the mirror reflecting back the image of himself, the man he knows to be guilty of deception, in the his final observation (of himself).

Oops, I see more posts....*sigh*...*sigh* and I thought I was caught up. You must all be online now. I have some definitions/background here in a book, for Venus and for Apollo, so if you let me copy them from my astrology/mythology book I will type them now. Be patient and I will be back shortly with that info in detail.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Janine

DM, I think I know the exact passage you will be referring to later. Is it the one about Connie? I was reviewing that part of the story the other night and realized it does reveal more about Connie and their relationship, than I had previously observed. That one paragraph nicely sums up the way things are between them, which reveals the problem with their relationship, I believe. I won't mention it until you do when we get to that part, if that is what you are referring to.

---

Yes, it is about Connie, acutally I have a couple different ideas about that passage, in someways I found it the most interesting in the story.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Janine

Yes, I would agree that Coutts most definitely puts Connie on a pedestal. I don’t know if I entirely agree that he puts Winifred on one. I feel rather the opposite Winifred puts herself on the pedestal and wishes Coutts to worship her; and Coutts wishes take her down from that pedestal and treat her as a woman, take her into the natural world of the body and blood; the sexual human union; as opposed to the union of a ‘worshipping knight to a goddess’, as he interacts with Connie.

---

Though I know previously I did say that in someways Coutt's could be seen as putting Winni on a pedastol, what you have stated above, sort of fits more into my "new" interpitation of the story.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Antiquarian

Lawrence keep linking Winifred to the statue. He keeps mentioning how white Winifred is and how rounded. It got so she sounded a little pudgy to me. LOL

---

Espcially the way he talked about her arms, of which he seems to have a fetish for.

Here is the mythology:

The Sun
Apollo, son of Zeus and second only to him in power, became associcated in the 5th century BC with the strength, light and purity of the Sun; the snake which he slew represents the cold darkness of winter, dispersed by his blazing beauty, He governed the seasons, was the god of agriculture, guardian herds and flocks. Perfectly beautiful, he was supposed to be the first victor in the Oylmpic Games, symbolized Man, most perfect of animals, in his highest form.

Venus
Venus, a Roman and Latin goddess, was originally goddess of beauty and growth in nature; but later she became associated With Aphrodite, Greek goddess of love, worshipped (often wih the most repulsive rites) as far west as Italy and Sicily. She ruled sexuality, fruitfulness, and eventually family life - though in her early days she showed small concern for the conventions! The famaily of Julius Caesar claimed to be descended from her.

Wow, that is kind of interesting! Relates also to other stories we have read such as 'Sun'.

Edit: As, I was posting this (above) you two posted a bunch more.:lol: I will get to that in a minute. I can't seem to catch up but you both bring up things I agree with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Antiquarian

It's rainy and chilly here today, Janine, but tomorrow is supposed to be warmer and dry. Sorry to hear your leg is bothering you. I slept better, too. I'm no good unless I get my sleep. Sometimes I'm no good even with the sleep.

Lawrence keep linking Winifred to the statue. He keeps mentioning how white Winifred is and how rounded. It got so she sounded a little pudgy to me. LOL

---

Actually, Antiquarian, Lawrence did like his women a little on the 'pudgy' side; he liked some 'meat on their bones', so to speak. He even wrote a letter to one woman, telling her never to lose weight; I think this was born out of the fact, that Lawrence was so thin after his first major illness, and apparently he never could gain his weight back. He really did have a thing about 'fleshy' women, loins, and Dark Muse, as you pointed out fleshy arms, as well. Also, he in other writings he seemed to describ Louie as rather tall with strong arms and large hands, or it may have been Jessie Chambers, but amazingly most of the women he knew and seemed attracted to were a little on the 'hefty' side and fleshy (not quite fat). I should post photos, in this thread of Louie Burrows (she was quite beautiful, I think) and Helen (more plain and looks to be on the rounder fleshier side). Louie actually, is thin looking and built well, I believe, in the photo in my book.
Anyway, about the arms, etc, DM, I think you will find that Lawrence had quite a few 'fetishes' such as these. He was a 'quirky' sort of guy.

Antiquarian, thanks - hope it gets warmer here too and sunny would be nice. It was rainy yesterday but warm actually. You are not the only one needs her sleep. When I am forced to get up early, if I did not get to bed till late, I am a disaster! I sleep badly too, most nights...so I can sympathise with that.

Quote:

---

Yes, it is about Connie, acutally I have a couple different ideas about that passage, in someways I found it the most interesting in the story.

---

"Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Yes, I would agree that Coutts most definitely puts Connie on a pedestal. I don’t know if I entirely agree that he puts Winifred on one. I feel rather the opposite Winifred puts herself on the pedestal and wishes Coutts to worship her; and Coutts wishes take her down from that pedestal and treat her as a woman, take her into the natural world of the body and blood; the sexual human union; as opposed to the union of a ‘worshipping knight to a goddess’, as he interacts with Connie."

Quote:

---

Though I know previously I did say that in someways Coutt's could be seen as putting Winni on a pedastol, what you have stated above, sort of fits more into my "new" interpitation of the story.

---

Dark Muse, I probably went back and researched the same parts looking for clues to Connie; I got curious and thought, 'there has to be more text describing Connie or the relationship.' How funny, we probably thought the same way, DM. Now I feel I do a have a very firm grasp of the meaning of the entire story. It really helps to go along like this slowly and see what is meant by everything written. First impressions sometimes alter so much on second and third reading or discussions like this one.

In Sons and Lovers, wasn't Paul sort of fascinated by Clara's arms as well? I think I recall him often looking at her arms and talking about them

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dark Muse

In Sons and Lovers, wasn't Paul sort of fascinated by Clara's arms as well? I think I recall him often looking at her arms and talking about them

---

Yes, good memory, DM...I recall that, as well; actually I read that Clara's character is partically (she was a composite and basically fictional) based on several women in Lawrence's life - one might even be Helen Corke, but the others I believe also were quite fleshy in the arms and body generally. Didn't he also say Clara was big or had strong limbs? I picture her that way, but then again I have also seen the new movie version (miniseries); she was not fat, but not quite skinny either, and she was a little bigger in bone structure.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Janine

Yes, good memory, DM...I recall that, as well; actually I read that Clara's character is partically (she was a composite and basically fictional) based on several women in Lawrence's life - one might even be Helen Corke, but the others I believe also were quite fleshy in the arms and body generally. Didn't he also say Clara was big or had strong limbs? I picture her that way, but then again I have also seen the new movie version (miniseries); she was not fat, but not quite skinny either, and she was a little bigger in bone structure.

---

I think I do recall him saying something about her having strong limbs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Antiquarian

I found some photos online. Louie looks to have been the prettiest. I was not taken with Jessie's looks at all nor with Frieda's. In fact, in a 1926 photo, Frieda seems quite dowdy, while Lawrence seems almost gaunt. Lawrence, himself, at age 21 is strikingly handsome.

I found this interesting: It was essential to Lawrence that any woman he loved could respond to his writing and become...a collaborator.

---

Antiquarian,
Yes, that is all very true. I have seen various photos of Jessie, so don't go by just one; not that she was a beauty but she did have dark eyes that were on the pretty side. I think in those days photos were a little inaccurate, or people looked so stiff in them. The photo of Jessie may have been taken after Lawrence even knew her. In early photos of Freida, she did look pretty, but later on she got quite hefty and lost any looks she might have had; she also, began looking worn and hard...I think living with Lawrence took it's toll on her....not easy living with a tempermental author. Yes, Lawrence got very gaunt and he looked to be very thin, boney. I have seem a zillion photos of him by now, and have many in my various books. He was quite altered in his midlife and was so very different looking from his earlier photos. He looked to be blond early on (think actually, he was a strawberry blond or redhead) and quite good-looking, handsome and he did have a confident, but sensitive look; I think, in the eyes one can percieve a certain vulnerability/fragility and also the spark of genius. His early baby pictures depict him as just adorable and his early boyhood the same. I think later, after his first illness, he really went downhill in appearance, with the continuing series of attacks of his chronic illness, eventually diagnosed as the then deadly TB. His longish beard he attributed to two reasons - he said it kept his neck warm (I said he was quirpy) and kept him from getting ill; also they said he got scraggly (hair and beard) because often he did not trust barbers to cut them. I guess Freida did it for him and she probably did not do a very professional job. Also, his hair color seemed to darken as he got older, as is usually the case.
Seemed of all the woman, Louie was the prettiest and I think he has association with another woman named Baynes. I will look her up, too - they say she was the model for Connie in "Lady Chatterly's Lover".
I will have to find more photos for you. I had posted some in various Lawrence threads on this site. I will look those up - there are whole pages of them somewhere.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dark Muse

I think I do recall him saying something about her having strong limbs.

---

He usually does point that out about certain women. He seemed to admire physical strength in a woman...interesting.

Antiquarian,Indeed, women did often help Lawrence with his work, either editing or proof-reading, typing manuscripts and even advising. Jessie was the first to do so, then others followed. She even entered a contest for him, which he won when very young. She had the pseuydenom (sp?) of E.T., I believe. I will look that up, to be certain. His wife, Freida, also helped Lawrence a great deal.

Virgil, This is rather funny; I went to look in the old "Sons and Lovers" discussion thread seeking photos for you, Antiquarian, and whatever else turned up. It turned out to be plenty of interesting information, but only a couple of photos of Jesse and Louie, you can find it in the thread post #44. I found so many interesting things, I had to start keeping a file. I was in there at least an hour or two reading our old posts, Virgil. Wow, we had a really good discussion in that thread! I even started to gather up ideas, that could apply to this story and others we read. I have the file offline, of some highlights and other interesting information, and will post some of the things I think are appropriate, after I I go over that material. For now I don't have the time and must take off the evening. I have to call about my accident (insur. co) and also I thought I would attempt to clean-up a little, my two upstairs rooms; maybe vacumn and then watch a movie to relax. I may be on much later, but I don't know. I am trying to shut my computer down a little earlier, so I can get better sleep. I have been up too late lately, which is not good.

Before we got side-tracked with talk of statuary, and beautiful women, I posted this section of text but now I am adding some commentary:

NEXT PART OF TEXT:

Quote:

Quote:

---

At last, on the high-up, naked down, they came upon those meaningless pavements that run through the grass, waiting for the houses to line them. The two were thrust up into the night above the little flowering of the lamps in the valley. In front was the daze of light from London, rising midway to the zenith, just fainter than the stars. Across the valley, on the blackness of the opposite hill, little groups of lights like gnats seemed to be floating in the darkness. Orion was heeled over the West. Below, in a cleft in the night, the long, low garland of arc lamps strung down the Brighton Road, where now and then the golden tram-cars flew along the track, passing each other with a faint, angry sound.

---

I just love this whole paragraph and the way the various words and phrases seem to jump right out at you and take hold and you feel what they must be feeling at the moment they are there "thrust up into the night" - that too is such a sensual statement and one evoking an elevation into another realm - one of darkness, shadows, lights, stars and mysteries. I love the way the gnats are described and it seems they correspond to all the ideas of the bits of light in the darkness, even the stars in the heavens. This magic world of night seems to be ruled over by 'Orion' who is "heeled over in the West". What fine exquisite writing and so poetic. Yet it ends with the words angry sound. The trains seem to invade this peace of nature and the valley.

Quote:

---

"It is a year last Monday since we came over here," said Winifred, as they stopped to look about them.

---

Clearly makes not that it has been over one year since they were last there; and also the fact that Winifred has kept that in her mind and her memory; she has noted it.

Quote:

---

"I remember--but I didn't know it was then," he said. There was a touch of hardness in his voice. "I don't remember our dates."

---

Quote:

---

After a wait, she said in a very low, passionate tones:
"It is a beautiful night."

---

Now Coutts claims he had not noticed when that took place. Unlike the woman, the man has not noticed the passage of time and states that he never remembers their dates. I think this would be fair to say and somewhat typical of a man. Women seem to keep mental records about time and dates, better than men do. Also, I think this would indicate, that Coutts was not so aware of all this time passing, as was Winifred. The last lines state that she spook in "low passionate tones", suggesting she is enticing Coutts at this point. She attempts to pull him into close intimacy.

Quote:

---

"The moon has set, and the evening star," he answered; "both were out as I came down."
She glanced swiftly at him to see if this speech was a bit of symbolism. He was looking across the valley with a set face. Very slightly, by an inch or two, she nestled towards him.

---

I wonder if his reply could indicate he felt things to be favorable when he first alights from the train and now he feels the night is all blackness and unsurity. I may be reading more into that line; but, I still don't know quite what to make out of her saying that she looked for a bit of symbolism in his speech.
The last line brings Coutts closer to her by Winifred's own actions and "she nestled towards him". Coutts is not making the first move here physically. She is and she knows it and the effect.

Quote:

---

"Yes," she said, half-stubborn, half-pleading. "But the night is a very fine one, for all that."
"Yes," he replied, unwillingly.

---

So again are they referring to the night now being no longer illuminated by the moon and the evening star, perhaps darker and lighted by the artificial lumination of the "lamps like gnats" and the "daze of the light from London" and the "garland of arc lamps" replace the more natural light of the heavens?
So, in a way, 'supernatural' or 'surreal' takes over natural world in this scene above.

Quote:

---

Thus, after months of separation, they dove-tailed into the same love and hate.

---

This line is so perfectly placed and so well written and crafted...so well put. It makes one read on in anticipation, as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Janine

Before we got side-tracked with talk of statuary, and beautiful women, I posted this section of text but now I am adding some commentary:

---

Oh, good. I love this part of the story. The tension between the two of them is quite exciting, and the narration is witty and clever.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Janine

the various words and phrases seem to jump right out at you and take hold and you feel what they must be feeling at the moment they are there "thrust up into the night" - that too is such a sensual statement and one evoking an elevation into another realm

---

The setting is sensual, and it creates a separate world for them. It reminds me of the places like "The Green World" in A MidSummer Night's Dream where Shakespeare gives the lovers their own location for their affairs. In that play, the forest and the city become representative of public society and private desire. Likewise, in "Witch A La Mode" the dark hill is the place for the seduction, and the luminous city portrays the civilized public.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Janine

Now Coutts claims he had not noticed when that took place. Unlike the woman, the man has not noticed the passage of time and states that he never remembers their dates.

---

Winifred is trying to arouse old memories of their closeness. Coutts, on the other hand, tries to wound Winifred by saying he's forgotten. Most likely, he does remember, but he is teasing Winifred the way she teased him about his wife. The roles are reversed now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Janine

I wonder if his reply could indicate he felt things to be favorable when he first alights from the train and now he feels the night is all blackness and unsurity. I may be reading more into that line; but, I still don't know quite what to make out of her saying that she looked for a bit of symbolism in his speech.

---

She looks for symbolism because Coutts is noticing a change. That change (Moon and Venus descending) could represent the waning of Coutts' love for his wife. Or, it could represent his waning love for Winifred. In either case, there could be a reference to his affections buried beneath his observation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Janine

So, in a way, 'supernatural' or 'surreal' takes over natural world in this scene above.

---

That's a good point. The glow of the town is artificial. How do you think this change adds to the story?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Janine

This line is so perfectly placed and so well written and crafted...so well put. It makes one read on in anticipation, as well.

---

Yeah, that's the tension. It keeps you guessing what Coutts is going to do.

Excellent post!!! Quark, wow...I am impressed. I really like all that you said above. I didn't want to requote it, before the others read it, because it all makes so much sense to me. I agree with all you said. You ask me one question about

my statement:
"So, in a way, 'supernatural' or 'surreal' takes over natural world in this scene above."

You said in response:
"That's a good point. The glow of the town is artificial. How do you think this change adds to the story?" I don't know if it changes anything about the story except it suggested to me that his new meeting with Winifred is likened to a dream and would therefore be artificial and not quite reality - they both would be acting out a sort of 'dreamworld' (like in Midsummer Night's Dream - good analogy) and therefore, the dark scene and obscurity that night suggests, actually masks them both, from true true reality (of day or sunlight). I think this magic of night is a big part of the spell that Winifred weaves about Coutts, drawing him into a dark world of mystery and seduction.

Yes, Coutts might know the date and may have noted it; you are right. In fact Lawrence would have noted all dates because he wrote these things in detailed letter all the time. So, I think you are right about that - he is using this denial of recalling the date to get back at Winifred and hurt her.

Yes, that last line does set up the whole idea of "tension" between the two. That is a good way to put it, Quark, and it drives the story onward with suspense.

Quark, as Antiquarian and I have been pointing out to you continually - Coutts has NO WIFE!.....you throw everyone off, everytime you say that; It throws off the meaning of the story.....Coutts only has a finance - he is engaged to be married someday.....even that is not established as to when.....I agree Antiquarian...all that you said is true, but many times people do and can break off engagements. I know a few people who recently did so. Nothing is 'carved in stone' until you are married, even then there are things called divorces and people do part ways for the better most times...so nothing is truly 'permanent' in relationships, only trust and true commitment, perhaps.

Did you just edit, Antiquarian? I am sorry, I did not see where you said they don't always become wives or husbands. You are exactly right - it would have been a much different story had Coutts been married.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Antiquarian

Quark, Coutts is not married. He has no wife. Just a finacee, which is a commitment, I grant you, but many people who have been fiancees and fiances are never wives or husbands.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Janine

Quark, as Antiquarian and I have been pointing out to you continually - Coutts has NO WIFE!

---

I'm sorry to throw people off, if I am doing that. I think we (including me) all know that she's the fiancee. I'll just refer to her a Connie to make it easy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Janine

I don't know if it changes anything about the story except it suggested to me that his new meeting with Winifred is likened to a dream and would therefore be artificial and not quite reality

---

That makes sense. There is something illusory about the whole scene.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Antiquarian

No, for once I didn't edit, Janine. LOL I do seem to edit a lot.

---

:lol: - on editing, because I do that, too...all the time. Usually, by the time I finish editing my post, about 4 people have posted theirs. Then I can never catch up.

Quote:

---

Had Coutts actually been married, he would have been able to commit himself to a woman. At the present time, I think he finds commitment a little frightening. I do know (because you told us ;)) that Lawrence longed to be married and devoted to only one woman, but I think perhaps Coutts, in his youth, finds marriage a little frightening even though he does long for many of the things marriage can bring.

---

Exactly! And after you have read "Sons and Lovers" you will understand that so much better. Yes, the 'young' Lawrence longed for stability and marriage and love; don't we all? But getting it is always a different story and Coutts embodies the young Lawrence's confusion about commitment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Janine

Quote:

Quote:

---

At last, on the high-up, naked down, they came upon those meaningless pavements that run through the grass, waiting for the houses to line them. The two were thrust up into the night above the little flowering of the lamps in the valley. In front was the daze of light from London, rising midway to the zenith, just fainter than the stars. Across the valley, on the blackness of the opposite hill, little groups of lights like gnats seemed to be floating in the darkness. Orion was heeled over the West. Below, in a cleft in the night, the long, low garland of arc lamps strung down the Brighton Road, where now and then the golden tram-cars flew along the track, passing each other with a faint, angry sound.

---

I just love this whole paragraph and the way the various words and phrases seem to jump right out at you and take hold and you feel what they must be feeling at the moment they are there "thrust up into the night" - that too is such a sensual statement and one evoking an elevation into another realm - one of darkness, shadows, lights, stars and mysteries. I love the way the gnats are described and it seems they correspond to all the ideas of the bits of light in the darkness, even the stars in the heavens. This magic world of night seems to be ruled over by 'Orion' who is "heeled over in the West". What fine exquisite writing and so poetic. Yet it ends with the words angry sound. The trains seem to invade this peace of nature and the valley.

---

Good points. Also the lamps and lights seem to connect with climatic lamp burning.

Quote:

---

Now Coutts claims he had not noticed when that took place. Unlike the woman, the man has not noticed the passage of time and states that he never remembers their dates. I think this would be fair to say and somewhat typical of a man. Women seem to keep mental records about time and dates, better than men do. Also, I think this would indicate, that Coutts was not so aware of all this time passing, as was Winifred. The last lines state that she spook in "low passionate tones", suggesting she is enticing Coutts at this point. She attempts to pull him into close intimacy.

---

"Spook in low passionate tones"? Is spook like ooked? ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Quark

Winifred is trying to arouse old memories of their closeness. Coutts, on the other hand, tries to wound Winifred by saying he's forgotten. Most likely, he does remember, but he is teasing Winifred the way she teased him about his wife. The roles are reversed now.

---

Good point Quark! We see her in this element gaining her power. It's as if the feminine night and moon (Artemis is the goddess of the moon by the way, the sister of Apollo the Sun god) have given Wini power.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Virgil

Good points. Also the lamps and lights seem to connect with climatic lamp burning.

---

humm...Virg, what is "climatic lamp burning"? Are you referring to the fog or mist here? Oh, I get it now, you are not talking about the weather..:lol: I see...you mean the lamp that burns at the 'climax of the story'....hummm the word "climatic" refers to both in my dictionary...that is why I thought it...and they mentioned lamps and London fog as they are in this particular part of the story...walking in the darkness. Yes, it does seem these lamp/light images do fortell the future in some distant way.

Quote:

---

"Spook in low passionate tones"? Is spook like ooked? ;)

---

Oh yes....:lol:...Exactly like "ooked"...:lol:

Quote:

---

Good point Quark! We see her in this element gaining her power. It's as if the feminine night and moon (Artemis is the goddess of the moon by the way, the sister of Apollo the Sun god) have given Wini power.

---

Agree! Good points here, Virgil and Quark.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Antiquarian

I agree with Quark that Winifred is gaining power the more she's with Coutts. He's losing any will to resist her. But when they are walking together, the evening star and the moon are not out. I don't understand the significance of that.

---

Antiquarian,I agree with that, too. It is a sort of building up, to the final scenes of seduction, don't you think? I would think that Virgil would have better ideas than I do, on the significance of the evening star and moon which is no longer visible. I am not quite clear on that line, when it said, she looked for symbolism in what Coutts was saying; only do I understand it to the extent that they know this language together - one of symbolism and not straight-forwardness/honesty. They play a little 'cat and mouse' game, continually during this walk to her house.

I will try and post another section with comments tomorrow.