Quote:
Originally Posted by
Virgil
I think Lawrence had to do that. He's faced with a delimma (sp?) in writing this story. He's writing about a guy who's being unfaithful, but yet we've got to see him in some sort of positive light, otherwise it's a different story I think. The humanizing and the guilt qualify the infidelity.
Virgil! How are you today? Glad to see you back again, thanks for reading my posts.
To your post I say definitely so and well put. No one is perfect, so we can try and identify with some part of the character, even if we have only felt a small tempation in our own lives. If we are totally pure and never knew what it is like to be tempted, maybe we can't, who knows? But, who on earth can say that? No one is with out sin; if we were, we would be angels. I don't know about you, but I am no angel. The facts, of his own weakness and awareness of potential wrong doing, from the very beginning of the story, makes him human in our eyes (connect Coutts to us) and mades the story possible. If we could not connect with Coutts character the story would be meaningless.
Quote:
Everything in the story works toward the temptation, nature, Winifred's attractiveness or should I say spell, and one thing we haven't discussed, the music. The story is filled with musical metaphors, as well as that music scene.
I had thought of the music, too. I thought I added that to the list; guess I missed it, so thanks of mentioning that. Yes, the music is definitely a big part of the story and would be very intoxicating, don't you think?....and that violin and the piano are mentioned at the end, as well. They are symbols of that same 'intoxication' of the night and the music. One reason perhaps, the red anemones sit on the piano, and draw attention to those musical images - but lets explore that more later on, when we get to that part of the text and see exactly how it is worded.
I am sure Coutts does focus on himself. But don't we all do that daily? I am confused about the significance of such a statement of 'a man who focuses on himself'? We all have these little internal dialogues daily don't we. We all question constantly decisions we make on a daily basis and even long term ones. We all focus basically on the person we know the best - ourselves. In this case I think Coutts is focusing on himself and trying to 'find himself', as well. As I said many times so far in this discussion, he is young and very confused, most notably with his own manhood and sexuality. Interesting thought just came to me 'monkshood' sounds similar to 'manhood' or looks so at a glance.
Quote:
That is interesting. We do see that frequently with Lawrence. There is a similar image in The Rainbow. I've always felt that Lawrence liked Hardy's use of that image in Jude The Obscure. The church tower in Jude is very prominant if I remember. Whether Lawrence is using it in the same way as Hardy uses it oin Jude is a good question.
Yes, and I read about the one in "The Rainbow". I have collected quotes from each story and book where a church tower, spire plays a prominent role in the writing. There is much symbolism connected with church towers. I wonder now also if Lawrence did not, at least relate, to that image in the Thomas Hardy novel "Jude, the Obscure" and others of Hardy's. Often towers and church spired have been evident and meaningful in Hardy's work. But also, I think in Lawrence own immediate area where he grew up churches and church spires were very much a dominent part of the landscape and part of the English way of life. I don't think it unusual he would employ these images in his works but he does it so well, with church towers casting dark shadows. In the case of "The Horse-Dealer's Daughter" it was on the graveyard and the graves, which does indicate a suggestion of death and mystery.
Quote:
To be honest Janine, I don't see any motif or theme or even metaphor of death in this story. I think you got that from Michael Black, and I'm just going to have to disagree with him.
I don't think I got that from Michael Black. I think I got that idea from the Timeline book, combined with several biographies. I think the idea just came to me and witches are connected with death such as a witches brew with dead things to make up a potion. I just felt the use of all the black imagery and the heavenly references suggested death; even eternity with the star. But also, I am thinking more of an emotional death. As Antiquarian later points out in her post, Winifred would have been overpowering to Coutts and in a sense, I believe that would have been a sort of 'death', or 'sacrifice' of Coutts, as well.
Quote:
There are similarities to S&L, I agree. I guess Black is going cross texts and linking things in that sense, but I like to hold each work as an individual self enclosed piece, and in my way of reading i don't really see death as a theme. I think the church, may or may not suggest phallic, but I do think it reminds the reader of conscience. Plus Connie is supposed to live in a "rectory", a residence for religious people, that's mentioned more than once, and that I think links again to conscience.
Believe it or not, Black is cross references "The Tresspasser" more so, and now it has made me want to read that play. He also cross-references some of aspects of the story with "The Shades of Spring"...I thought of that story as well, when reading this story for the first time. The commentary is complicated and Antiquarian has found it online, so if she can provide the link, we all can read it. I believe it is the same one, I have in my book by Black on "The Early Fiction". It is a good reference book, Virgi.
Quote:
You know I did not give a lot of thought to the star imagery in this story. I think Janine is referring to the balanced star imagery in Women In Love, where the male and female are in perfect balance with each other. That's a later work and I'm not sure Lawrence had worked out that imagery yet when this story was written. I will go back and re-read that tonight. It's an interesting thought.
I was thinking of that star imagery in WIL, but I felt unsure about that, too. I think that he had the seeds of the thought, but like you said, this idea was not yet developed. I think in "Sons and Lovers" there is a star image mentioned at the end of the novel, in conjunction with his mother. I will look that up. That is more feasible to me to explain what the evening and morning stars or a single star meant to Lawrence at this time in his life. Michael Black says it is a special Lawrence omen. Omens would go along with nights of enchantment and being under the spell of a witch. Do not witches deal in codes, symbols, special language, omens, predictions, etc?
Quote:
See my thought in the previous post on it's allusion to Hardy's Jude the Obscure. I don't know if Lawrence is using it in the same way as Hardy, but I do think he became infatuated with that image and used it many times.
Yes, now I see he did become quite infatuated with the image of the church tower/spire extending upward to the heavens. It is a very important symbol to Lawrence. In his later work "The Plumed Serpent" the church and it's towers play a prominent role in the structure of the story, they have become converted into a temple for the old gods. Bells ring out from the towers hourly, which also signify something particular.
Quote:
That is an excellent thought!! It is something that Lawrence would definitely do and has done. Like I said, I don't know if at this early date in his career he had worked out his star/sun imagery yet. Perhaps so.
Thanks! Yes, he does tend to repeat images and ideas/symbolism. It seems stars/suns/churches do predate to this period. Over time the ideas will evolve and change somewhat.
Quote:
I took it as a sacrifice of Connie, but you may be right. Perhaps sacrifice of his innocence, or naivete.
I think the sacrifice is to Connie, however if he had had a fully sexual encouter with Winifred I think he would have been sacrificed, as well, because I don't see either woman as right for Coutts. humm...I don't know aobut sacrifice of his innocence. This I did not think of and I don't think it is such...but I am not sure either. I don't think he is naive either.
Quote:
Dark Muse did suggest a distiction between natural transportation (walking) and powered (car, train, tram) transportation. Lawrence did that in amny places, but I'm not sure I can see a significance in this story. But natural and artificial light might also be significant.
Yes, they too play prominently into Lawrence's stories. I thought the most interesting was the image of the train as a 'golden snake'..we will get to that later when the scene/text comes up.
Quote:
The vanity I think is that he thinks he can play this game with Wini while engaged to Connie. At least that's how I read it. I also think it reinforces his youth and inexperience, and that this event will be a maturing process.
Male vanity, then? I do think it reinforces his youth and inexperience and this event will definitely be a maturing process in the end.
Quote:
Yes, I think that fits with what I just said.
Yes, he is human since he sees his flaws.
Quote:
Good point. I hadn't thought that. Although I'm not sure how Wini gets sacrificed. She seems to be in control. In fact after the initial shock she has in finding Coutts at the house, she has all the power in the story. She's the witch who casts a spell and breaks off the spell at her whim.
I don't think the one to suffer will be Winifred. I think she is way stronger than that and she is powerful and in control. Exactly, she does exert the power (spell) over Coutts after the shock of the initial meeting. She is the "Witch a la Mode" afterall! I believe she it the one to break off the spell, I would rather determine that for certain at the end of the story text.
Quote:
Though I think Coutts actually sought encountering Wini, I'm convinced now that it's Wini who reels him in and manipulates the situation to cast her spell
.
Why else would she be considered the witch in this story. Witches and enchantresses cast the spell on young men in lore. I think of characters such as Lancelot. I will bring that up later, since Michael Black sites some references to various legends to relate to things that are said in this story - one being "The Lady of Shallot".
Quote:
Good thought. That's quite typical in Lawrence's work. he's always drawing on religious/magical mysteries.
Yes, always. I can't recall a prose work when he did not do so, can you Virgil?
Quote:
Hey, I think I'm caught up. :)
Yes, good job on your post, Virgil. You are caught up but I have barely scratched the surface.
Onward I march to the next posts and comments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dark Muse
Hope I did not go too far ahead, there were just some passages in the section Antiquarian brought up that I wanted to address. But I will stop there for now.
Dark Muse....well, you did go on a little far and somethings repeat my own comments, I did offline last night and I want to comment on what you say, too. I asked if we could hold up a bit, so I could post that and I really personally need to catch up...so does Quark; Can I still post the next part of the text, all underlined with a few comments? I was thinking I would just add on Antiquarian's, as I go along...and I can add your new post as well.
Is that ok, Antiquarian? I think you got a little bit enthused and pushed ahead to the text which I did not yet post; but I am so happy to see your enthusiam in this thread...I really am and so glad you researched the story further. Fun, isn't it?
Presently though, we need to slow up a bit...I can't keep up at this fast rate.
However, Antiquarian, I do think we are making you into a Lawrence convert.;) :lol: I will try to answer the parts that apply to how far we got in the text.
Dark Muse, I understand about the star and the feeling of vanity. I guess I did ask if anyone had any ideas on the statement of the vanity. I do think the star is a prominent symbol. I guess I wondered why they were within the same statement or single thought of Coutts.
Here is the first part of Antiquarian's post that applies to the following part of the story and the text before that:
Quote:
I'm trying to catch up with the other posters, so I'm sorry if I've repeated anything here. These are just my impressions. Please feel free to comment or just to skip over anything that's redundant.
Wow, we all are trying to play ‘catch up’! It is getting a little confusing, to say the least, but I will try my best to answer all you wrote, Antiquarian:
Quote:
When Bernard Coutts alighted at East Croydon he knew he was tempting Providence.
Coutts knows he's in danger of seeing Winifred, and he knows seeing Winifred is, in fact, danger.
"I don't see why I shouldn't go down to Purley. I shall just be in time for tea."
Each of these concessions to his desires he made against his conscience. But beneath his sense of shame his spirit exulted.
He feels bad about not continuing on to Connie's, but he realizes he's pleased at the prospect of seeing Winifred again.
Above the coloring of the afterglow the blade of the new moon hung sharp and kenn Something recoiled in him. "It is like a knife to be used at a sacrifice...I wonder for whom?"
Is Connie to be sacrified or Coutts? I think it's both of them. I think it's their relationship that's to be sacrificed.
I think it is eventually the outcome, and the perhaps the 'sacrifice'; but I think, when he questions himself in the begining he is referring the sacrifice in conjunction with the idea of being married to Connie. Later he might consider the 'sacrifice' to refer to the idea of his affair with with Winifred (druid priestess, witch), if it were indeed realised. Etiher woman would have smothered him, had the had hold of him fully.
All the rest (above) I agree with.
Quote:
Then, there's the conversation about free will.
Laura says regarding why we do things:
"I'm sure I don't know. Why do we? Because we want to, I suppose."
A few lines later, her father says:
"I suppose...it's because we can't help it - eh?"
We do things for two reasons - because we want to and sometimes, because we simply can't help doing them. Coutts realizes:
It hurt him to give pain to his fiancee, and yet he did it wilfully.
Coutts is aware that Connie will be hurt, but he can't help himself.
Yes, and then the go onto mention the now dead debate about “Free Will. I wondered why it was capitalized. Is it because it was an published article or topic publically?
Yes, agreed with last line.
Antiquarian I am going to take all of your posts and put them in my offline file, to answer as I go along, with that part of the text, as we come to it. I can't jump this far ahead in my mind yet, but you do bring up a lot of good points and good questions, that I promise to address individually.
I am sorry to be so confused at this point but I want to post the next part of the text which Dark Muse and you have already commented on some of the points. Sorry to back up the wagon like this but even Quark said he is totally lost now. If we stick to some type of sequence we can all get back ontrack. Is that ok. I want to really read your three posts offline so I can get a better understanding of what you say and what you ask here.
I know that if I post this next part Quark is going to be a little behind and Dark Muse and some of what Antiquarian is going to get repeated, not doubt (if that be the case with anyone, I am really really sorry. I wrote this yesterday). Later tonight I will go back and copy both Antiquarian's and DM's posts and try to answer those below.
************************************************** *****
So here is the next part of the text:
Quote:
Mrs. Braithwaite herself opened the door to him.
"There!" she exclaimed. "I expected you. I had your card saying you would cross from Dieppe to-day. You wouldn't make up your mind to come here, not till the last minute, would you? No--that's what I expected. You know where to put your things; I don't think we've altered anything in the last year."
Antiquarian, is Dieppe in France, do you know? I am asking because I am curious since I read the first version of this story had Coutts returning from France.
This woman knows him very well and his ways of doing things on impulse apparently. Also the mention of not altering anything after a year would suggest he is taking in even more so to his past like in a dream.
Quote:
Mrs. Braithwaite chattered on, laughing all the time. She was a young widow, whose husband had been dead two years. Of medium height, sanguine in complexion and temper, there was a rich oily glisten in her skin and in her black hair, suggesting the flesh of a nut. She was dressed for the evening in a long gown of soft, mole-coloured satin.
I think this description of Mrs. Braithwaite is interesting and pretty graphic. I especially thought the way he describes her ‘rich oily glisten in her skin’ and the ‘black hair, suggesting the flesh of a nut’….doen’t sound too flattering really. She is dressed in soft a subdued color ‘mole-coloured’ satin. She is sanguine (cheerful, or ruddy, red) in complexion and temper. She seems to be a person always chattering and laughing.
Quote:
"Of course, I'm delighted you've come," she said at last, lapsing into conventional politeness, and then, seeing his eyes, she began to laugh at her attempt at formality.
So again, they know each other quite well, he sees her down to earth and not pretentious or formal.
Quote:
She let Coutts into a small, very warm room that had a dark, foreign sheen, owing to the black of the curtains and hangings covered thick with glistening Indian embroidery, and to the sleekness of some Indian ware.
I wondered about this part with the words foreign sheen and then the mention of the Indian embroidery and pottery ware. Could it suggest the idea of travel and foreign lands? I like the way the room is described as such. It feels warm and inviting and interesting.
Quote:
A rosy old gentleman, with exquisite white hair and side-whiskers, got up shakily and stretched out his hand. His cordial expression of welcome was rendered strange by a puzzled, wondering look of old age, and by a certain stiffness of his countenance, which now would only render a few expressions. He wrung the newcomer's hand heartily, his manner contrasting pathetically with his bowed and trembling form.
It seems this old man has seen his day and now is retired to his little room of memories.
Quote:
"Oh, why--why, yes, it's Mr. Coutts! H'm--ay. Well, and how are you--h'm? Sit down, sit down." The old man rose again, bowing, waving the young man into a chair. "Ay! well, and how are you? . . . What? Have some tea--come on, come along; here's the tray. Laura, ring for fresh tea for Mr. Courts. But I will do it." He suddenly remembered his old gallantry, forgot his age and uncertainty. Fumbling, he rose to go to the bell-pull.
"It's done, Pater--the tea will be in a minute," said his daughter in high, distinct tones. Mr. Cleveland sank with relief into his chair.
The word “gallantry” stands out since this is very much like a dreamworld for Coutts. For this man his gallant days are done, but he may have had a life of great freedom and adventure at one time. At anyrate the man and daughter both do their best to make Coutts feel at home and comfortable, from the moment he steps into their house.
Quote:
"You know, I'm beginning to be troubled with rheumatism," he explained in confidential tones. Mrs. Braithwaite glanced at the young man and smiled. The old gentleman babbled and chattered. He had no knowledge of his guest beyond the fact of his presence; Coutts might have been any other young man, for all his host was aware.
So really to the old man “Coutts might have been any other young man”. His babbling and chattering might just be his way now in his old age.
Quote:
"You didn't tell us you were going away. Why didn't you?" asked Laura, in her distinct tones, between laughing and reproach. Coutts looked at her ironically, so that she fidgeted with some crumbs on the cloth.
"I don't know," he said. "Why do we do things?"
"I'm sure I don't know. Why do we? Because we want to, I suppose," and she ended again with a little run of laughter. Things were so amusing, and she was so healthy.
So, Laura asks Coutts, rather pointedly, why he went away and then she is nervous and fidgets a bit, waiting for him to answer. Coutts answers that he does not know, evading a true answer. So he doesn’t know why he went away to begin with or he doesn’t want to tell her. Now Laura ends up answering for him in the last statement, “Because we want to, I suppose”. The scene is perceived as ‘amusing’ and Laura, as being ‘so healthy’. Who is perceiving that – Coutts?
Quote:
"Why do we do things, Pater?" she suddenly asked in a loud voice, glancing with a little chuckle of laughter at Coutts.
"Ay--why do we do things? What things?" said the old man, beginning to laugh with his daughter.
"Why, any of the things that we do."
"Eh? Oh!" The old man was illuminated, and delighted. "Well, now, that's a difficult question. I remember, when I was a little younger, we used to discuss Free Will--got very hot about it . . ." He laughed, and Laura laughed, then said, in a high voice:
"Oh! Free Will! We shall really think you're passé, if you revive that, Pater."
Mr. Cleveland looked puzzled for a moment. Then, as if answering a conundrum, he repeated:
"Why do we do things? Now, why do we do things?"
So, we already did discuss much of this idea of free will as opposed to the idea of fate ruling our destinies. I was wondering why they capitalized Free Will. Also, why is Laura saying he will be thought of now as passé?
I will get to requoting of DM's later...sorry, I am not skipping over your post; this is temporary.
