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Yanni,
I am out of this thread now. Since it is not discussing Bach or any variations but has all the appearance of a government building site with no management.
But what comes out of these rabbit holes remains to be seen. Handel's career was manufactured.
Regards
For Baron von Munchausen try -
Burkhard Christoph von Münnich (1683-1767)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burkhar...n_M%C3%BCnnich
You may continue your fugues as it suits you, Robert and you may also make any remarks you find 'appropriate' while doing it but, friendly advise, try to look a little deeper in your 'rabbit holes'.
Both questions of my #400 post will be answered tommorow and....no, Burkhard Christoph von Münnich could not have been the same man as King George's friend Munchausen, he was too old in 1758, read the recommended book above.
Here is what its author, Lord Chesterfield, has to say for "appearances":
"Polished brass will pass upon more people than rough gold."
Yes, but I am talking of the character of Baron von Munchausen. And you are talking of King George's friend. One came from the other.
The point is simple. Those with big agendas like to have cardboard re-enactments to confuse fact and fiction and to make elements of each interchangeable. And I am saying King George's friend Munchausen was -
Burkhard Christoph von Münnich (1683-1767).
On which the later literary character was built.
As for the significance of these things, the takeover of western governments, commerce, banking and so on required, in the fulness of time, the takeover of western art and culture itself. From within.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yanni
Wikipedia: Münnich's- military- activity was brought to a close by the revolution of 1741; he was arrested on his way to the border, and condemned to death. Brought out for execution, and withdrawn from the scaffold, he was later sent to Pelym, Siberia, where he remained for several years, until the accession of Peter III brought about his release in 1762. Catherine II, who soon displaced Peter, employed the old field marshal as director-general of the Baltic ports.
Any other source (apart from a lively, eggnog assisted (?), imagination)?
Remember post #216 of this thread?
The Seven Years' War (1756-1763), with Prussia and Great Britain fighting the alliance of Austria, France, Russia, Sweden, and Saxony, defined the lifes and the somewhat uncertain and complicated carreers of the heroes of this thread, such as the triple-faced JS Handel/Bach/Koch and the thousand- faced comte de Saint Germain-Cocchi-Koch.
From: The Second Little Clavier Book For Anna Magdalena Bach - 1725
By Johann Sebastian Bach (1685-1750) or perhaps his chorrpräfect Johann Sebastian Koch, geboren 1689 in Ammern bei Mühlhausen und gestorben 1757 als Cantor in Schleiz or, most propably, by Handel, all brilliant-white Lutheran pipesmokers, honouring lyrics thru their music: Singspiel? Sounds like an early Joan Baez anyhow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Fyg_147jd4
So oft ich meine Tobacks-Pfeife,
Mit gutem Knaster angefüllt,
Zur Lust und Zeitvertreib ergreife,
So gibt sie mir ein Trauerbild-
Und füget diese Lehre bei,
Daß ich derselben ähnlich sei.
Mühlhausen does have a certain resonant similarity to Münchausen, doesn't it!!
Regards!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicology
Symptom: Sudden loss of memory!
Diagnosis: Selective amnesia!
Yanni,
You may be one of the most confused and confusing individuals who has ever posted on the internet.
''Sudden loss of memory'' and ''selective amnesia'' on what, precisely ??
LOL :crash:
Here is something easy to remember - it may help more quickly than almost anything else ! But we won't go too fast (LOL)
BWV 8/1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKMRN...eature=related
Quote:
Originally Posted by yanni
"Memory loss" symptoms from your part were evident throughout our conversation, Robert, but a "selective" amnesia could not be diagnosed with certainty as, in parallel, an apparent indifference to the need of-or existence even of-a detailed timeline was also endemic, as also your systematic refusal to name sources for obviously wrong statements/info supplied by you in the past.Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicology
An exception was your last blunder, Munnich, where you do name your source (Wikipedia) to then draw another notoriously wrong conclusion (that he was the same as my previous "Monsieur Munchausen"), in full contradiction to your own source and, when asked to provide another source to support your claim or at least an apology, you select to refuse answering alltogether.
Let me tell you that the specific 1758 Munchausen is very relevant to our Bach/Handel/Amyand/Cocchi/Koch story and, should you change your mind and wish really to assist in this research, by all means, do answer previous questions (now limited to the Munchausen to West correspondence late 1758), ie
Would you 'care to disclose' Lady-Frances-father's name?
and
Would that be THE famous baron Munchausen himself, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baron_M%C3%BCnchhausen...
...the "Monsieur Munchausen", trusted by the Hanoverian English King in 1757 http://www.docstoc.com/docs/57761384...f-Chesterfield, p.5, "our friend Munchausen", p.11, who "embarked yesterday for Prince Ferdinand's army" (21st Sept 1758 "Munchausen"*** leaves England for Braunsweig) p34-35?
If so, kindly advise who this "West" was and do provide the exact 1758 dates, contents and sender's address for re letters!
...and care to name your "sources" as well!
OR
at least explain yourself!
Ta-ta!
Yanni,
I cannot teach you how to think. But if you insist on straying in to quicksand I tire of dragging you out. Forget the nonsense of 'amensia' because I have not forgotten how you claim to be one moment interested in reality and are the next so muddled that you do not see your track record of going round in circles.
My source on Munnich was one of a hundred easily accessible to you. And which you would do well to read. But what I did NOT say (and what tires me to repeat) is that the cardboard character of Baron von Munchausen was LATER invented upon him. Which is a fact you seem ignorant about. The latter was invented before 1785, after Munnich was already dead for decades. Thus, I do NOT, have NOT, and never would say they were the same. Since one was a real person and the other was a fictional character. Am I going too fast for you ?
You now tell us that Baron Von Munchausen (fictional character) was 'very relevant to the Bach/Handel/Amyand/Cocchi/Koch story, although here I must move in to capital letters to emphasise the point already made -
THESE MEN WERE ALL (EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THEM) DEAD LONG BEFORE THE FICTIONAL CHARACTER OF BARON VON MUNCHAUSEN WAS EVER INVENTED.
Am I going too fast for you ??
If not, please write again, because there is nothing in this for our conversation. And nothing for anyone who spends the time and effort reading it.
Regards
Gee, thanks for the lessons on Baron Munchausen's true identity, Robert!
Please continue teaching me as well on the identity of his wife (Frances Compton,later Amyand), her full family name, and on the identity and duties of his 1758 correspondent, only mentioned as 'West" in your previous.
Ta!
Sorry, but the subject is of no interest to me. If you wish to tell us why your never ending family history research has relevance it might help. I think your energies are best spent justifying your posts so far. But that's only my view.
Verse for the Day -
''But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain''.
(Titus 3.9)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eWK0...eature=related
BWV 249
Adagio
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgQz8...eature=related
Quote:
Originally Posted by yanni
So, when you first presented in this here forum your '1758 Munchausen to West' find, you did it because it was irrelevant and not of interest to you?
Wow!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicology
If I present information on this thread it is because I consider it relevant to its title. Not because I wish to go off on a tangent. Obscurantism is not my forte.
This thread (as I must again point out) is on the 'puzzle' of the so-called 'Bach variations' and it seems you are unable to focus upon it. Let alone describe what is really 'puzzling' about it. And since this sort of situation is typical I find myself having to continually remind you of it. Munchausen is, I assure you, a story character based on a man who really existed but who had died decades before Baron von Munchausen became popular fiction. If you agree with this fact we can avoid dozens of useless exchanges on other issues.
(The best conversations are those which consist of agreement on what is actually being discussed, and progress is based on the fact of that agreement. Without which we are soon spinning round in a 'washing machine' without any issue related to the thread itself ever being resolved).
I am working on an article at the moment which deals with the documented musical 'genius' of Mozart, from records of a concert given in Mantua, Italy, on 16th January 1770. The 'genius' itself being criticised. But what relevance has that to this thread ? None, except you want me to discuss issues of equal irrelevance. Which I have already learned lead nowhere.
You should open new threads on a particular subject if you consider them worthy of specific discussion and not subject us to the turgid machinations of your diversionary obscurantism. Whose relevance is never provided.
Music, art, literature and culture came under increasing control during the 17th and 18th century from within by foreign elements which inflitrated and took it over in western Europe. Through bloodlines and by means of fraternal control. That is the significance of what I have posted here on Munnich. We might call it a third religion, one of occultist origin, since it is neither Christian nor Jewish. And that fact is one you seem wholly unable to accept. But the puzzle you refer to in this thread is supposed to be the subject of this thread. And it appears to be going nowhere.
JS Bach
Sonata for Violin and Basso Continuo
BWV 1023
First Movement
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14SB1...eature=related
Regards
Quote:
Originally Posted by yanni
Thanks, Robert,
That's the answer a qualified C.R.A.P* member could only give, regretting his last monumental blunder to reveal enough details on HM's agent 'Munchausen'- close associate of King George II and 1758 correspondent of James West**,re arranging financing for Britain's war effort via Messrs George Amyand&Buckner of Hamburg -for yourstruly to then be able to clearly identify him as King George's trusted advisor, Claudius Amyand jr (who never really functioned as a librarian of the Cottonian), aka Frederick de Nicolay etc.
Claudius Amyand Jr was a son of Dr Claudius Amyand, also known, in his turn, as G.F.Handel/J.S.Bach/Dr Antonio Cocchi/Gerhard van Swieten and, most propably, 'John Theophilus Desaguliers' as well, Grand Master, 1719 and later too, of the Grand Lodge of England***, close associate of I.Newton and teacher of B.Franklin (in magnetism, electricity etc.)
More to follow, early next year, Dumbo allowing!
BTW Robert: Your selective amnesia hinders you in recalling what was made quite clear, early in this thread, that the subject is "Bach and Handel were the same person".
Happy New Year all!
*"Coordinated Research Association Producers"
**J.W. of Alscott Park, Secretary to the Treasury May 1746-Nov 1756 and July 1757 to May 1762. Treasurer 1767-1768.
***Officialy founded on St. John the Baptist's day, 24 June 1717, in London.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicology
Gentlemen,
I forgot to drop in wish both of you a Merry Christmas, so here's to hoping it was a good one.
Now I shall wish you a happy and prosperous new year.
Santa was pretty good to me this year. For example, he dropped off a new Pre amp for my turntable. Now I can enjoy the wonderful music captured on dozens of vinyl albums, most of which belonged to my parents.
As a matter of fact, I am listening to Bach's "Cantata BWV 199" and Cantata BWV 209"; Maria Stader soprano w/ Koln soloists ensemble while simultaneously perusing the sheet music to Handel's Messiah.
Keep up the good work and again happy new year!
Your favorite fan,
Gilliatt
Thanks and compliments for your-surprising revealing or rather 'conclusive'- musical choices, Gilliat:
A previously 'musicaly suppressed' (BWV199) young 'Bach', after 'seeing the light' in Rome and Venice, is invited (Dec 1709) by the brit embassador and 'Handel's' later friend , Charles Edward Montagu, 1st Duke of Manchester ,to perform in London, returns home to Ansbach (in 'Handel's' Saxe-Weissenfels and near 'Kant's' Erlangen) and is getting ready to leave friends and family behind to cross the channel, propably on his first sea voyage! ('Handel' arrives London Dec 1710).
On BWV 209: See 'The Cantatas of J. S. Bach: With Their Librettos in German-English Parallel Text by Alfred Dürr' p924 (on "winds and waves")
Your find is important because, among others, confirms that 'Bach' wrote his own verse in italian, ie crosschecks his 'Rolli', Cocchi, 'Amyand'-allegedly from Livorno, personae (and leads to finally remove quotes '' from Antonio Cocchi).
Propably of relevance: Maison du Spectacle--La Bellone contains one of the most impressive Baroque facades in Brussels, built between 1697-1708 by the sculptor and architect of the Grand Place (Main Market Square), Jean Cosijn. The bust above the main door represents La Bellone, the God of War. The house is an information and support center for different cultural organizations like Association de la Promotion de Spectacles pour Enfants, Center Belge de l'instituit International de Theâtre, Maison de la Parole, Contredanse and many more.
Best wishes again to all!
Yanni speaks of the 'musically suppressed young Bach' when, in fact, he was around 30 years old already and the composer of several hundred works in virtually every form. Cantata 199 was one of these, having been written around 1714/15. But why let facts get in the way of a Yanni post ? (Cantata 199 dates from 4-5 years after GF Handel’s arrival in England and not before it). After Handel’s long period of being treated royally in Venice and Rome by cardinals and other spooks of the British Empire and having previously been recruited in Hamburg by feudal bankers of Italy (with British approval) and done nothing musical whatsoever in Germany. By why let facts get in the way of a Yanni post ?
As for the music of BWV 199 it comes from of one of the most unsuppressed musicians who ever lived. LOL !!!
J.S. Bach (1685-1750)
Aria
Wie Freudig Ist Mein Herz
Cantata
BWV 199
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leHba...eature=related
And, as for supreme talent - (while the elitists and their dopplegangers were wining and dining) -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wcUT...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cb7uu...eature=related
LOL !! Can music speak for itself ?
:crash:
May the New Year bring you all you wish for, Robert, including solid evidence for your 'Bach' (a known copyist of music while in Kothen etc*) preferably from sources other than Munchausen's or Guliver's.
http://www.let.rug.nl/Linguistics/di...ehlhausen.html
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Vocal/LostWork-2.htm
*Johann Sebastian Bach copied all six suites sometime between 1709 and 1714,[2] and was influenced by Dieupart's music, particularly in the famous English Suites.[1]
Yes Yanni,
Influence is a wonderful thing when it is creative. Best wishes for 2011.
O Mensch, bewein' dein' Sünde gross
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZeRK...eature=related
Your answer is out of context, Robert, and your suggested music and lyrics bring 'Bach's' own 'dreckohr' in mind.
To redeem yourself, kindly advise on the identity and functions of the 1761 owner of 'Tom's Coffee-house', also known as 'Literary Coffee House' in St. Martin's Lane (next to St Martin-in-the-Fields).
Ta-ta!
Gentlemen,Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilliatt Gurgle
I thought you might enjoy seeing the album, so I took a picture of the front and portion of the bach.
http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/a...m/IMGP1225.jpg
http://i963.photobucket.com/albums/a...m/IMGP1226.jpg
On the cover, Bach appears to be a cross between a member of Fleetwood Mac and a Greenwich Village minstrel, anyhow, this might give you some food for thought.
Regards
Gilliatt
.
Bache/Handel ....devoted his last years to oratorio, showing that (in his own words)
"the English Language which is so expressive of the sublimest Sentiments, is the best adapted of any to the full and solemn Kind of Musick".
Nice picture,Gilliat: He is on his way to London, making sure his wallet is still in place (next to his 'Herze').
:smilielol5:
Yanni,
Kindly advise on the identity and functions of the 2010 Manager of Macdonalds restaurant in Athens, Greece. Since it will be more in context than your last post. You can provide a context, can't you Yanni ?
In the meantime, a musical divertimento -
J.S. Bach
Orchestral Suite No. 2
BWV 1067/1
Overture
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJUSu...eature=related
Ta, ta !!
Quote:
Originally Posted by yanni
Your pains to sterilize 'Bach' from his London family, friends and associates, are praiseworthy Robert but don't you find it of importance that his son, the aforementioned Claudius Amyand jr(aka Frederick de Nicolay, Immanuel Kant, J.J.Rousseau etc ), married Frances, daughter of rev Thomas Payne, on November 26, 1761?
Or that she, Frances, had also a brother, Thomas or Tom, bookseller/printer (1719-1799), address: 1) next the Mew's Gate, near St Martin's Church in Cheapside 2) near the South Sea House, Bishopsgate Street?
Were these Paynes related, I wonder, to the second Grand Master (freemason) George Payne (succeeded by John Desaguliers in 1719, ie Handel/Bach/HM's doctor Claude senior Amyand)?
Or to the "other" Thomas Paine (of MacDonalds)?
Naaaah, too paynefull to believe true!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Payne_(Freemason)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicology
Yanni,
This may be relevant to GF Handel. But how does it show JS Bach was ''the same man as GF Handel'' (and vice versa) ? You haven't told us. Thanks for the visit to an 18th century coffee shop but the facts remain the facts. What exactly is the connection you are still searching for ? Over several months you have played on the edge of GF Handel's career. A career which (I've repeatedly said) was massively faked. And which you may agree is a fact.
Shall I repeat those Handel posts which say so? With the published sources and text from letters of the time which say so ?
(I have the feeling 2011 may be a long year !!)
Anyway to make things more wonderful (and less fraudulent) - some music from a composer discovered by Vienna ('city of music') and everywhere else in the musical world only with great reluctance. And in small doses. Of course. LOL !!! You have to laugh at this.
Orchestral Suite 3 (aka Cosmic Dance No 239) LOL !!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE3vI...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6bfJ...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPN9T...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA_et...eature=related
Quote:
Originally Posted by yanni
Elementary, my dear Watson, provided of course you had gone to the trouble of following my advise, long ago, to start by reading my "Two works by Poe decoded", in this here forum, and then follow to next threads by me, all relevant and interlinked.
Can't make a list of the countless indications/evidence leading to last conclusion that 'Bach' (Johan Sebastian Koch actually)/Handel was the same with Dr Amyand/Cocchi, but, besides the fact of your own failure (to provide one single instance 'Bach' is on record as being at a different place than any of the other three), the fact Tom Payne arrived at McDonalds of Philadelphia carrying a letter of recommendation-for employment-addressed to Manager Richard Bache, signed by his father-in-law- and heavily indebted at the time* -B.Franklin, should suffice!
Franklin's own relations to many 'Cocchi Americano's', all relevant and interlinked as well- some even on record printing the 'revolutionary'-in its concept- and first ever 'McDonald catalogue' in Paris in parallel to the one by Paine in Philadelphia (on 'The Rights of Customer')- have long be established too,as per Poe thread above.
And no, it won't be a 'long 2011', the subject is exhausted but it propably is hard to digest, not just because of the form of presentation.
Regards!
*Finding out who french-minister-of-defense was then, will surely help you a lot.
PS "The facts remain the facts": I read it as a bad joke only!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicology
This really is my last post on this thread. Once the clowns have left we can have some music. Richard Bache was an Englishman who died in 1811.
JS Bach (1685-1750)
Fantasie and Fugue in A Minor
BWV 944
Sviatoslav Richter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7OS_...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8Tiz6INF7I
...and close the door before you do!
Yanni,
1. You have provided zero evidence JS Bach was GF Handel and vice-versa.
2. Your most recent posts have returned (once again) to information that may be of relevance to the fake career of GF Handel. (As I have said repeatedly). But not on JS Bach.
3. Over the past months you have provided not a single evidence of GF Handel and JS Bach being the same person. Have you ? Despite being asked repeatedly to provide some. But your reply is to rely on even more obscure hints and suggestions which have nothing, in fact, to do with the life and career of JS Bach. And still we want to see some evidence. The truth is you have none. And nor does anyone else.
4. Evidence has also been presented here of the fake career of G.F. Handel. Here (once again) are some of hundreds of proofs of this fact.
‘’G.F. Handel has ‘borrowed’ a dozen of these works and, I dare say, I shall catch him stealing from them also, as I already have formerly, both from Scarlatti and also from Vinci’
(Charles Jennens, Letter of 17th January 1743 to Edward Holdsworth, shortly after acquiring a substantial number of musical manuscripts from the Roman Catholic Cardinal Pietro Ottoboni)
And here, if you believe in reading/learning, is another (far more substantial in size) -
''The Indebtedness of Handel to Works by Other Composers: A Presentation of Evidence'' (1906)
http://www.mediafire.com/?t2v2385o6wdd76v
Conclusion -
One side is presenting facts and the other is not. You really do not know what you are talking about. Let others decide. Door now closed. As requested.
Regards
Tutti mi chiedono, tutti mi vogliono,
donne, ragazzi, vecchi, fanciulle:
Qua la parrucca. Presto la barba
Qua la sanguigna. Presto il biglietto
Figaro ... Figaro
Son qua, son qua.
Figaro... Figaro...
Eccomi qua.
Ahimè, che furia!
Ahimè, che folla!
Una alla volta, per carità!
Figaro su, Figaro giù
Pronto prontissimo son come il fulmine:
sono il factotum della città.
Ah, bravo Figaro!
Bravo, bravissimo;
a te fortuna non mancherà. 'Figaro, Figaro (1784)
Oxford's period of predominance was now at an end, and Anne turned to Bolingbroke and Marlborough to assume the reins of government and ensure a smooth succession. But beneath the weight of hostility the Queen's health, already fragile, rapidly deteriorated, and on 1 August 1714 (O.S) – the day the Marlboroughs returned to England – she died.[132] ....the regents chosen by George prepared for his arrival.[133] The accession boded ill for the 'men of Utrecht' – Bolingbroke and Oxford. Bolingbroke (a staunch Jacobite) fled to France, while vengeful Whigs pursued Oxford to the Tower. In contrast, Marlborough was received with the greatest cordiality. The new King had not entirely forgiven him his flirtations with Saint-Germain*, and he had no intention of employing him in any but military capacities. However, reappointed as Captain-General, Master-General of Ordnance, and Colonel of the 1st Foot Guards, Marlborough once more became a person of influence and respect at court.....While living at Windsor Lodge he suffered another stroke in June 1722, not long after his 72nd birthday. Finally, at 4 a.m on 16 June (O.S), in the presence of his wife and two surviving daughters Henrietta Godolphin and Mary Montagu, the 1st Duke of Marlborough died. (Wikipedia on Churchill, first duke of Marlborough)
George's mother, the Electress Sophia, died on 28 May 1714[29]. ….George was now Queen Anne's direct heir. He swiftly revised the membership of the Regency Council that would take power after Anne's death, as it was known that Anne's health was failing and politicians in Britain were jostling for power.[30] She suffered a stroke, which left her unable to speak and died on 1 August. The list of regents was opened, the members sworn in, and George was proclaimed King of Great Britain and Ireland.[31] Partly due to contrary winds, which kept him in The Hague awaiting passage,[32] he did not arrive in Britain until 18 September. George was crowned at Westminster Abbey on 20 October.[2]
Barber; Claudius Amyand, at 170l. per an., 1 Aug. 1714 to Michaelmas 1716 From: 'Declared Accounts: Civil List', Calendar of Treasury Books, Volume 30: 1716 (1958), pp. CLXXXIII-CCXVIII. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...x?compid=85262 Date accessed: 06 January 2011.
One of the barber's sons, Claudius Amyand jr, in his father's steps:
He held many political appointments ; succeeded to one after Henry Fox, afterwards Lord Holland. He was M.P. for Tregony and Sandwich. He died in 1774,**without issue, having married Lady Northampton, and was buried in Langleybury Church, Hertfordshire. CHARLES HAWKINS. Savile Row.
It may interest MR. WINTERS to know that in theyear 1762 there was a banking firm in London styled Sir George Amyand***, Staples & Mercer, carrying on business in Cornhill, near to Gracechurch Street.
In 1776 this firm became Staples, Baron Dimsdale & Co., 50, Cornhill, which now flourishes under the style of Dimsdale & Co****. F. G. H. PRICEhttp://nq.oxfordjournals.org/content....full.pdf+html
*"Saint Germain" refers to James II, living in Paris, France at the time of Marlborough's alleged "flirtations". http://www.history.com/topics/james-ii-britain
** a convenient year for a premature death.
***Died 16 August 1766.
****It was Dr.Dimsdale&Co's withdrawal (of their credit insurance coverage) however, early 1771, that brought about the collapse of Scottish Banks in 1772. http://www.electricscotland.com/hist...g/chapter9.htm
Rare video from Autumn of 1717* (* LOL) of a certain JS Bach warming up to meet the keyboard challenge given to him by one Jesuit superstar Louis Marchand (1669-1732)- Marchand returning home without bothering to compete. (Friends in high places, or what ??). Must have been GF Handel instead, yes ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxzY3...eature=related
Trusting solid(!) evidence as provided by the same old suspects?
I have news for you:
Perhaps the most famous anecdote about Marchand is the account of the competition he was supposed to have with Johann Sebastian Bach in Dresden in September 1717. According to Marpurg, Jakob Adlung, and other German sources (the story is not found in any French documents), the two composers were to have a contest in harpsichord performance, and Marchand fled before Bach's arrival, apparently out of fear of being defeated. This story, retold with various embellishments by Bach's later biographers such as Johann Nikolaus Forkel, was only subjected to close scrutiny by late 20th century scholars; no conclusive proof exists that Marchand ran away, or even that he knew the competition was to take place.[3] Note 3: See Williams, 2007 (...and wake up to reality)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Marchand (Of note: There seem to be no french records available concerning a return to France, following his 1713 alleged "trip to Germany", either. His biography ends then and "there").
:smilielol5:
Merry Xmas (today, in line with the Julian calendar)!
Actually, the account of what happened in late 1717 in the challenge made by Marchand on JS Bach comes from well within Bach's own lifetime. From the year of 1739, in fact. From J.A. Birnbaum, teacher of rhetoric in Leipzig. And from various others of around the same time.
He writes that Marchand was ‘the greatest man in all France on the clavier and the organ’ and the contest was to have taken place on the clavier (1739;Dok.II p.348, NBR p.79). There was also Jakob Adlung, who claims to have had the same story confirmed by Bach himself, using the same terminology (1758; Dok.III p.121, BR p.445).
I suppose that makes it worthy of your belief. But if not, well, at least you see it is not an invented idea.
Toccata
BWV 915
Inese Klotina, piano
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HU5NT3bMuk&feature=fvst
The repetition of halftruths does not make your burden any lighter, dear Watson, neither does your selection to avoid mentioning your source -which happens to be the very one (Williams) who concludes that the 1717 contest is unsourced*!
Your 'JSBach' was just as great a liar, fake, cheat etc as your 'GFHandel'**, qualities that were apparently of greater value to the Hanoverian courts (than Louis XIV's- as 'Marchand'***most propably, his music included in Magdalena's buchlein as well) hence his later deification in London!
To conclude: Three centuries after 'Amyand's' London arrival, the fact not just musicologists but historians as well, are still 'reluctant' to reveal the truth, supporting their own 'conclusions' thru such trustworthy 'sources' reveals just how wide the C.R.A.P association really still is.
Ta-ta!
*Birnbaum's 'source' was 'JSBach' himself, the contest further 'confirmed' by 'Bach's' own 'Obituary'. (see J.S. Bach: a life in music By Peter F. Williams p 118-9)
**In his book on Bach, Williams has 96 references on Handel , indirectly confirming their common identity.
***We have to thank, besides 'Bach', another notorious liar, moreover a scottsman, for 'Marchand's early biography details http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89v...iton_du_Tillet, his 'story' proving our hero's strong links and influence in 1740's Paris.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicology
'No conclusive proof that Marchand challenged Bach to a musical competition in 1717' ? LOL !!! We have documentary evidence of it from Bach's own lifetime. And from years after his death. What IS conclusive proof ? It is a documented fact Marchand challenged Bach to a musical competition and ran away when he heard his opponent practicing the evening before it was due to take place. And you don't like documented facts. So I will give you more. Because you specialise in avoiding them.
Marchand came to tour in Germany for several years from late 1713 onwards. In September 1717 the Dresden court was to have been the scene of a contest between Marchand and J.S. Bach. And there are not two but three sources of the time who say so. They all describe this unflattering episode in Marchand’s career - F.W. Marpurg, J.A. Birnbaum and Jacob Adlung; all of whom agree Marchand slipped away. I wonder why ? Possibly because the music speaks for itself. LOL !!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xbHo...eature=related
Are you now questioning your own source's authority on Bach?
If so, please present your credentials in this forum for the reader to compare with...
Peter Williams (Musicologist, Arranger)
Born: May 14, 1937 - Wolverhampton, England
The eminent English musicologist, organist, and harpsichordist, Peter (Fredric) Williams, was educated at St. John's College, Cambridge (BA, 1958; Mus.B., 1959; MA, 1962; Ph.D., 1963).
In 1962 Peter Williams joined the faculty of the University of Edinburgh as a lecturer, subsequently becoming a reader (1972) and a professor (1982), where he held the first chair in performance practice in the UK. In 1985 he was made Arts and Sciences Distinguished Professor at Duke University in Durham, N.C., where he was chairman of the music department (1985-1988), university organist (1985-1990), and director of the graduate center for performance practice studies (from 1990).
As a performing artist, Peter Williams made appearances as a recitalist from 1965. As a scholar, he ranks among the foremost authorities on the organ. In addition to his learned books and articles, he has served as general editor of the series Biblioteca Organologica (80 volumes, 1966 et seq.) and as founding editor of The Organ Yearbook (from 1969). He is also founder-general editor of the series Cambridge Studies in Performance Practice and of the Duke University series Sources and Interpretation of Music. He is also general editor of the New Oxford J.S. Bach Edition.
Writings
The European Organ 1450-1850 (London, 1966; 2nd edition, 1968)
Figured Bass Accompaniment (2 vols., Edinburgh, 1970; 2nd edition, 1972)
Bach Organ Music (London, 1972; 2nd edition, 1974)
A New History of the Organ From the Greeks to the Present Day (London, 1980)
The Organ Music of J.S. Bach (3 vols., Cambridge, 1980-1984)
editor: Bach, Handel and Scarlatti; Tercentenary Essays (Cambridge, 1985)
Playing the Works of Bach (New York, 1986)
The Organ (London and New York, 1988)
with L. Todd, editor: Mozart: Perspectives in Performance (Cambridge, 1991)
The Organ in Western Culture 750-1250 (Cambridge, 1993)
The King of Instruments or, How Do Churches Come to Have Organs? (London, 1993)
The Goldberg Variations (Cambridge University Press, 2001)
The Life of Bach? (2004)
Source: Baker’s Biographical Dictionary of 20th Century Classical Musicians (1997)
Never said ALL brit musicologists are C.R.A.P members, did I?
Ta-ta!
PS Having checked the fact using a friend's portable, I now confirm that this subject indeed now rates #3 in 139000 when googling for "Bach variations" (with the quotes included)
There are at least 3 documented references to the Bach contest from men alive during Bach's time. That's good enough for me. And it will be good enough unless/until they are all shown to be wrong. Does it get more simple ? Don't waste your life on nonsense Yanni. Obscurantism is a form of deliberate ignorance.
Toccata in D Major
BWV 912/2
Angela Hewitt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjtw3...eature=related
Thank you for your,never-asked-for,demonstration of unlimited credulness. Please continue by presenting your credentials, if any!
See Credentials Below
Certainly. Here -Quote:
Originally Posted by yanni
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByLvd...02A3B&index=26