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Jozanny, I'm glad you returned and (once again, frankly) offered a view that is quite even-handed, reasonable and generously given. I think a lot of the earlier argumentation was about a particularly idealized situation (and focussed on a particular 'epistemological' twist), and your nuanced post earlier sort of sprouted up with surprising frankness in the midst of a perilous crossfire that wasn't quite ready for it.
And it is possible to have a non-monogamous lifestyle without being a cheater. There are people who are comfortable with open relationships, or those who simply just do not wish to have any sort of commitment, but it can be achieved without being unfaithful to anyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jozanny
I do not care what consenting adults do in their personal love/sex lives, but there is no just cause to betray another person. If a person means to no longer hold their promise they have an obligation to first and foremost tell their partner. It is just sheer cowardice to go behind their back or to give vows a person knows they cannot or will not keep.
In general, and in an ideal world, I agree Dark Muse. But what about a person, married at a very young age, who is abused by their spouse (perhaps cheated on by them?), in a society that doesn't provide them with any realistic option for divorce, a society with warped laws and customs that favor the opposite gender, maybe based on some religious text.
If that person then cheated (with great care, and in fear for their life even) with a friend in a sort of secret loving commitment, more real than the one to their marriage partner--would that be immoral? Could the cowardice perhaps be justified--be, in fact, a form of bravery, owing to the system and circumstances in which the vows had been taken?
This is just a wild counter-example, but I think it might show how some people can find that certain extreme situations (degrees of extremity being difficult to measure, and by no means an easy standard to meet) make such choices at least understandable.
First of all I just have to say, it seems a lot of people want to try and put the spin on things that it is completely implausible to expect people to actually be faithful in the real world and that fidelity is something that can only work in some utopian fantasy land.Quote:
Originally Posted by billl
Faithfulness is actually plausible in the real world and it is not just completely unreasonable to expect fidelity within a relationship. I personally know people who have had long lasting faithful relationships.
And I have known people who have been in less than ideal situations making the choice not to stoop to cheating even if they were in a situation in which might them to do so.
Under these particular circumstances I would presume that the person in question probably did not have a whole lot of say in their spouse, and probably did not really have the option or refusing, or choosing. In such a situation where the rights solely favored one gender over the other, matches likely would have been arranged. So the person would have been forced into the marriage and not by their own personal free will given their vow to the person.Quote:
Originally Posted by billl
In this case, though I still cannot bring myself to say that the act of infidelity is justified and I do not think that morals can necessarily be altered to fit individual situations, it would be more understandable why a person in these circumstance would be driven into such an act.
Nothing is direspectful as long as you are honest, you talk it out and content with yourself.
Also there cannot be any universal answer to some questions.
the circumstances matter.
Also whether you being answerable to yourself matters to you is another parametre.
Hillarious. I've not been here for a while and this is what we've been up to. Is infidelity wrong! lol. Too late to vote now it seems but just so you know incase nobody else has mentioned it - YES. If you want out of a relationship - that's perfectly fine, it happens, however painful it might be people change and love comes and goes. What you don't do is cheat on em! I love that song by Vonda Shephard (spelling?) which goes 'Don't break my heart...slowly'. Or something like that. It's more poetic than that I think.
The circumstances matter???????Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrig
Sorry. Gettign carried away but ...come on! Circumstances matter? I mean really? You can be immoral or do something wrong (and I really don't want to get into definitions and debates over 'immoral') in certain circumstances? i think it's that kind of thinking that is messing up society so much. No principles and morals. It changes as often as the wind. I'm a firm believer in making choices and sticking by them. So if you're in a tight fix get out of it no matter the damage because in the long run you'll cause much more damage, or stay in the situation, to hell with all circumstances, and lie in the bed you've made.
I am reading a small collection of Tolstoy's later works towards the end of his life, and "The Forged Coupon" tells the story of a boys' prank, due to materialism, of course, where naughty students forge a 2.5 ruble coupon into a 12.5 coupon, and the consequences it has as it passes person to person. I actually like this novella better than Anna Karenina or The Death of Ivan Ilyich, but disagree with Tolstoy's assumptions. The porter Vassily did not necessarily have to take the lesson to heart that lying for his master meant he could become a thief, without any cost to himself; Stephan did not have to murder the horse thief who was victimized by one of the coupon passers and subsequently turn into a serial killer, and so on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
In the same vein, no one is going to say that cheating is ethical, not me nor anyone else, which is why I am as much annoyed with myself for getting upset with this discussion as I am annoyed with the discussion itself, because the question isn't even worth asking.
But I am willing to recognize human frailty and not necessarily condemn those who fail. Now there are sociopathic behaviors that need control over and above sympathy, serial liars and serial cheaters who will never change and prey on others. I've come up against those and try not to think about them so as to not take up target practice-- but not everyone who breaks has that kind of pathology.
I can see why John Edwards had his lapse and forgive rather than flame him, and I still believes he loves Elizabeth, and I can forgive myself mine, because I never had the love of the able-bodied man I wanted in my life. I never loved another man in that way. My ex-fiance was just me turning 40+ and figuring the fat slob was the best I was going to get, but my contempt triumphs over his good points, and those are he is a pliable lap dog when handled well.
When I was your age I had a script too my dear, and it didn't turn out as I hoped. If I am still around in 30 years give me a buzz and let me know how its going. I'm sure I'll be interested.
Now I have to get to work.
Well said. I wanted to try to capture that frailty myself somewhere here, and I'm not sure if I did or not. Dante puts infidelity for love in the first circle of hell, which is the most lenient.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jozanny
Oh he is such an a$$. I don't have any sympathy for him. He was lying through his teeth to the public as well as his wife.Quote:
I can see why John Edwards had his lapse and forgive rather than flame him, and I still believes he loves Elizabeth,
No need to explain you personal situation. No one is without frailty. (Read John chpt 8:1-11)
For goodness sake Virgil, don't spout the New Testament at me, really. I tried to tell you some time ago that I am not one of those passively brain damaged kids that get flashed on television so that able-bodied people can feel magnanimous and along with Jerry Lewis, patronizing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Maybe if I go growl at Marty Peretz nice enough about how he looks like a Jewish gangster again perhaps he will pair me with Michelle to see who can ***** each other out in better form. I've had it with this nonsense. See ya.
Perhaps this might be a good time and place to throw a related question out there. What if you are in a relationship that is abuse and afraid to leave, and bullied into it in the first place? Yes, this does happen in the states I think more than we think or want to believe. On an ethical side, what is the answer if a person fears to leave the spouse but cannot function properly emotionally etc because of the abuse. If they are afraid to leave does that also mandate that they be loyal? Where lies the moral question in that respect?
If I were being abused; I would be even more afraid to begin another relationship. In this case, my answer is not a matter of morality; but of survival. I think the less ties a person has when they are hoping to get out of a relationship, the better. I would also think that being abused by one man would make me down on any kind of sexual relationship.Quote:
Originally Posted by isidro
What are your thoughts, Isidro; do you think having an affair is wrong in such a situation?
My thoughts? I am constantly surrounded by my own thoughts on the matter. But you are right - it does come to the question of survival. And you are also right in that after such an experience you do not want another relationship except that there is something in the human being, in the natural wiring therein, that makes you want and to some extent need a relationship after a while. Yes, it brings you down, yes, it makes you hate relationships and believe that love itself is nothing but a fraud but if you are strong enough to try to move on and overcome that you do need a relationship to cut your teeth on as you learn. Is it wrong? It comes down to the question of becoming a martyr. The only problem is that you have already been a walking, talking, living, breathing martyr already. Do you surrender to pointless, reckless violence after you have a chance to be saved or do you persist in allowing yourself to die? I do not know. As for myself, the abuse stopped my heart once already. I've already been a martyr. Do I allow it to continue until it stops and doesn't restart? Fear is the antithesis of faith and if it is fear holding someone to a relationship, how moral is the relationship in the first place? Ah, I don't know. Questions, questions, questions....Your ideas?
This has been such a fascinating topic; so many points of view!
I think, as individuals, we often want support when we are in situations that stress our normal "ethical or moral codes". Such rules, though, were made to preserve the family, society and economic structure. Most of us do have some sympathy for people in adverse circumstances; but we are also aware that as our population grows there are more people facing adverse circumstances and in danger of destroying the family and economical units. :crash:
You have been very brave, Isidro, and of course, sometimes, in order to go forward, we need the support and love of another human being. Only you know when you are ready to "go on with your life". Only you know when you are not in danger of falling in love with someone who has the facade of a supportive and sensitive man; and has an underlying sociopath. I know in my own life; having been brought up with sociopaths, I naturally attract them. Actually, they are usually the only types that I "have physical chemistry" with. If there is a womans group of people who have went through similar abuse; I would try to find support there.Quote:
Originally Posted by isidro
From a religious perspective, though I am not a religious person, I believe that the relationship between a man and woman is sacred; the type of abuse you speak of is an aberation and therefore, I shouldn't think it would be recognized as a "marriage". But, that is for those with greater knowledge of theology than I to say.
If they are capable of being unfaithful to such an abusive partner than they are capable of leaving them.Quote:
Originally Posted by isidro
Being in an abusive relationship does not justify being unfaithful particularly when there are other options open. They might have been bullied but they still had the option to say no.
It may not be easy to get out of an abusive relationship, but nonetheless it can be done. So no the answer to their problem is not to be unfaithful just because they are too afraid to get out of the bad relationship.
Their cowardice does not pardon them in the actions they choose to take.
haven't read the whole thread, so this might have been said before:Quote:
Originally Posted by African_Love
I totally agree that most people are capable of loving and being attracted to more than one person. I myself am perfectly capable of being attracted to several people at a time. But there is a difference between feeling attracted to someone and to actually, physically being unfaithful. Who says you have to sleep with each and every person you feel attracted to??? I think this is a question of restraint and self-discipline. But of course these are based on morality and it only works if you agree that infidelity is unacceptable for one reason or another.