should incest between brothers and sisters be legal?

wow, I was ill today and didn't log on and you guys wrote loads of long interesting posts in less than 24 hours. I'll read them in detail tomorrow.
heehee, no one can accuse me of starting silly pointless threads, eh Virge?

I still haven't voted in my own poll by the way :)

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Originally Posted by SleepyWitch

I still haven't voted in my own poll by the way :)

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The vote should be now obvious one ;-)

If it otherwise I shall have to banish you to deepest unliveable parts of Germany ;-)

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Originally Posted by Lote-Tree

The vote should be now obvious one ;-)

If it otherwise I shall have to banish you to deepest unliveable parts of Germany ;-)

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hahahahha :D I'm already there :)

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Originally Posted by SleepyWitch

hahahahha :D I'm already there :)

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And you still complain...let's see - outer mongolia! That will teach ya!!

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Originally Posted by Lote-Tree

Human's beings are social animals whether you like it or not ;-)

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What's that have to do with not liking society? Human beings are pack animals, which evolved living in small, pack-like tribal groups. Cities(modern society) hardly resemble such groups.

I've only had a chance to skim the huge amount of response to this thread. You know how to get people talking, Sleepy. As for the OP, I don't personally approve of incest and think it's morally wrong and probably highly unusual. (I can't imagine it's actually as large as 1 to 2% of the population engaging in fully consensual adult incestuous relationships. Surely that statistic Sleepy quoted must include cases of childhood abuse). That said, I don't believe that people should spend years in jail for any kind of fully consensual, non abusive sexual relationship between two adults. The one exception might be for cases in which the incestuous relationship is one between a parent and, say an 18 year old child which began with childhood abuse, in which case the offense during the child's minority would be more than enough justification for jail time. I don't think incestuous marriages should be legal, but that's much different than saying a person should be locked up because of such a relationship. I would imagine that most cases of fully consensual incest must be cases in which people weren't aware of having been siblings however. Really it must be phenomenally rare for a brother and sister who grew up together to want to have a sexual relationship.

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Originally Posted by SleepyWitch

heehee, well, if my real dad forced me to marry my hubbers this would mean that my hubbers would be legally obliged to feed me (which my dad is legally obliged to do until I'm 27 and still studying). my hubbers doesn't have enough money to feed me, so I'd have to claim welfare. so the state would have to give me money which had better go to ppl who don't have a rich dad. which would be very harmful for society. :D alternatively, I could sue my dad, which would be very harmful to the functioning of our family unit.. :D

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To completely change the subject, I was amazed at this post Sleepy...no, not because you and your hubbers are unmarried but because you say that your father is legally obligated to support you until you are 27?! Here in the states parents are only legally obligated to support children until they are out of their minority at age 18. Is that true only for students in Germany? Is there some sort of minimum he has to pay? What about parents who are low income and would have to really strain to support someone for 27 years?

I bet the title of this thread really caught your eye, Petrarch. ;)

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

To completely change the subject, I was amazed at this post Sleepy...no, not because you and your hubbers are unmarried but because you say that your father is legally obligated to support you until you are 27?! Here in the states parents are only legally obligated to support children until they are out of their minority at age 18. Is that true only for students in Germany? Is there some sort of minimum he has to pay? What about parents who are low income and would have to really strain to support someone for 27 years?

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heheh, clever questions, PL. yep, it's only for ppl who are still studying at univ or taking vocational training or taking an apprenticeship (I think). low income families can claim a monthly student grant from the state. If your parents are middle/ upper middle class/well-off you can apply for it, of course, but you're not likely to get it. half of the student grant is a loan with zero interest and you (the student) have to repay it gradually once you make more than a certain amount of money a year. but if you can't get a good job and never make more than that amount, you don't have to give it back at all. the other half is like a gift, i.e. you don't have to repay it at all.
if a family has 3 or more children who are studying/training at the same time, the 3rd (4th etc) child pays no study fees.
the parents still get child support from the state every months (160 Euros per child if you have only 1 or 2 children) until your 27. I don't know if there's a minimum they have to pay the child, but I guess it's got to be enough so the child can have a roof over their head (either living with the parents or in a student hall or other appartment), eat, buy clothes and study materials... :confused:
I'll look up the details if you're interested.

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Originally Posted by Lote-Tree

And you still complain...let's see - outer mongolia! That will teach ya!!

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hahahha :) I've been there and I loved it :) you'd do me a favour if you banned me there

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Originally Posted by SleepyWitch

heheh, clever questions, PL. yep, it's only for ppl who are still studying at univ or taking vocational training or taking an apprenticeship (I think).

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That's actually quite good though. Don't think the same applies here in the UK, the only good thing you get by being a student is that you don't pay taxes (council taxes) and, depending on your or your parent's income, you'll be allowed to apply for student grants.

27 and still dependending on good old dad? You know behinds were made for a good kick out the door. :p :p :D

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Originally Posted by Sleepy

heheh, clever questions, PL. yep, it's only for ppl who are still studying at univ or taking vocational training or taking an apprenticeship (I think). low income families can claim a monthly student grant from the state. If your parents are middle/ upper middle class/well-off you can apply for it, of course, but you're not likely to get it. half of the student grant is a loan with zero interest and you (the student) have to repay it gradually once you make more than a certain amount of money a year. but if you can't get a good job and never make more than that amount, you don't have to give it back at all. the other half is like a gift, i.e. you don't have to repay it at all.
if a family has 3 or more children who are studying/training at the same time, the 3rd (4th etc) child pays no study fees.
the parents still get child support from the state every months (160 Euros per child if you have only 1 or 2 children) until your 27. I don't know if there's a minimum they have to pay the child, but I guess it's got to be enough so the child can have a roof over their head (either living with the parents or in a student hall or other appartment), eat, buy clothes and study materials...
I'll look up the details if you're interested.

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That's interesting. I would be interested in knowing more about how that works out. It does at least seem fair if the parents are receiving child support from the state each month. That also implies that the state pays child support for every child throughout their minority. Wow. Do you have to keep up a certain standard of grades or show that you're fully enrolled in a reputable school with some sort of reasonable goals? I would imagine there must be some sort of standards so that people aren't just taking a couple of do nothing classes and not really going anywhere while sponging off the folks.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

27 and still dependending on good old dad? You know behinds were made for a good kick out the door.

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I think we should ship Virg. to Germany and have him adopt a lovely student to support. :D

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Originally Posted by Virgil

27 and still dependending on good old dad? You know behinds were made for a good kick out the door. :p :p :D

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yeah, that's what my dad's been saying since the day I was born :D
but you have to keep in mind our school and univ system is different. we graduate highschool around 19/20, sometimes even at 21. that's because we've got different types of highschools and the ones that grant univ entrance have take 9/8 years. plus, most kids used to start school at 6 or even 7. that's changed now, though and it's easier to start primary school earlier.

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Originally Posted by Antiquarian

I absolutely agree. Once consensual incest becomes legal, then it follows that consensual "anything" would become legal and with it, the breakdown of civilized society. People would say:

"We can murder one another in our group; it's consensual."

"We can take drugs in our group; it's consensual." (And never mind if, while taking those drugs, they harm others, who haven't consented.)

"We can conduct prostitution in our group; it's consensual." (But never mind if one person contracts AIDS or another STD and then subsequently leaves the group and passes it on to an innocent person who never even heard of the "consensual prostitution group.")

Sure, the children of many unrelated persons are disabled, but the children of siblings, first cousins, etc. are far more likely to be disabled and perhaps those children, if able to marry, will want to marry someone they are not related to. Then, their chance for having a child without disabilities is almost nil.

I think if incest is occurring, one of the partners is definitely weak and the other is predatory. The weaker one should be protected.

Incest leads to the breakdown of the family unit and the breakdown of the family unit leads to the breakdown of society.

While I don't have any interest what others are doing in their bedrooms, I do care that those "others" aren't closely related because if enough of them are, then what they're doing is eventually going to have an impact on my life as well.

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Yeah, that's the way it will go. This is such an epidemic that it will lead to the downfall of society. That's just ridiculous. People have been using the "what's next?" line since the beginning of time as an argument to why this or that should be not allowed. I could name any hundred things that people said the allowance of would be the downfall of scoiety and yet, we're still here.

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

That's interesting. I would be interested in knowing more about how that works out. It does at least seem fair if the parents are receiving child support from the state each month. That also implies that the state pays child support for every child throughout their minority. Wow. Do you have to keep up a certain standard of grades or show that you're fully enrolled in a reputable school with some sort of reasonable goals? I would imagine there must be some sort of standards so that people aren't just taking a couple of do nothing classes and not really going anywhere while sponging off the folks.


I think we should ship Virg. to Germany and have him adopt a lovely student to support. :D

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great idea :)
yep, every family gets child support, including rich ppl. that doesn't make too much sense to me, but then it's better to give to everyone, even those who don't need it, than to give to no one at all :)
if you want a student grant you have to stick to the prescribed number of terms for each course. that is you have to take your "intermediate exams" (after the first half of your studies) after 4 terms (2 years). If you don't get a grant you can take these exams after your 5th term. As for grades, nope you don't have to be a good student to get a grant. the idea of it is equal opportunities for everyone, it's not like a scholarship for especially gifted students but rather aims at giving students from all backgrounds a chance. this doesn't really work out, though, because those from working class backgrounds don't make it into the top kind of secondary schools in the first place (only 15% of pupils in these schools are from low income families). so they can't get A-levels (at least not without several detours) and can't go to univ.

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

I've only had a chance to skim the huge amount of response to this thread. You know how to get people talking, Sleepy. As for the OP, I don't personally approve of incest and think it's morally wrong and probably highly unusual. (I can't imagine it's actually as large as 1 to 2% of the population engaging in fully consensual adult incestuous relationships. Surely that statistic Sleepy quoted must include cases of childhood abuse). That said, I don't believe that people should spend years in jail for any kind of fully consensual, non abusive sexual relationship between two adults. The one exception might be for cases in which the incestuous relationship is one between a parent and, say an 18 year old child which began with childhood abuse, in which case the offense during the child's minority would be more than enough justification for jail time. I don't think incestuous marriages should be legal, but that's much different than saying a person should be locked up because of such a relationship. I would imagine that most cases of fully consensual incest must be cases in which people weren't aware of having been siblings however. Really it must be phenomenally rare for a brother and sister who grew up together to want to have a sexual relationship.

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This is the most sensible summary of the whole thing, in my view...

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Originally Posted by SleepyWitch

heheh, clever questions, PL. yep, it's only for ppl who are still studying at univ or taking vocational training or taking an apprenticeship (I think). low income families can claim a monthly student grant from the state. If your parents are middle/ upper middle class/well-off you can apply for it, of course, but you're not likely to get it. half of the student grant is a loan with zero interest and you (the student) have to repay it gradually once you make more than a certain amount of money a year. but if you can't get a good job and never make more than that amount, you don't have to give it back at all. the other half is like a gift, i.e. you don't have to repay it at all.
if a family has 3 or more children who are studying/training at the same time, the 3rd (4th etc) child pays no study fees.
the parents still get child support from the state every months (160 Euros per child if you have only 1 or 2 children) until your 27. I don't know if there's a minimum they have to pay the child, but I guess it's got to be enough so the child can have a roof over their head (either living with the parents or in a student hall or other appartment), eat, buy clothes and study materials... :confused:
I'll look up the details if you're interested.

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Well in Italy it technically works the same, as in most people don't move out, or if they do for uni partly depend on their parents, until they're well over 30 and/or until they get married (or, these days, they move in with their partner in sin like Sleepy ;)) ...with the MINOR difference that State help does not exist so it's all on your parents' shoulder or, if they give you the famous kick in the ar-se, on yours. :roll: I'm 26 and I moved out basically a couple of years ago but I would have never made it if hadn't had loads of savings due to having lived with my parents all my life... I don't know how English people do it as they seem to live on their own since they're 18 in the most common cases... (only 2 of my friends in Italy have moved out, both with their boyfriends, plus one who also lived abroad like me but now she came back at her parents' of course. Not to mention the social pressure I get for this terrible sin called living abroad on my own - while I get the feeling it'd be socially acceptable if I had a man by my side, as in the Middle Ages are still here, but that's another topic ;))