All about Nietzsche

A question for anyone who has it, or would know anyway; the book published by Modern Library, The Basic Writings of Nieztche contains Beyond Good and Evil, The Birth of Tragedy, The Case of Wagner and Ecce Homo. Are these complete? I bought a book called The Portable Nietzsche which contained Thus Spoke Zaratustra, Twilight of the Idols and The Antichrist in their entity and I want to make sure that the Modern Library book is the same with the works that it contains before I get it. That way, I can pretty much have all the important Nieztche works in two volumes.

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Originally Posted by metal134

A question for anyone who has it, or would know anyway; the book published by Modern Library, The Basic Writings of Nieztche contains Beyond Good and Evil, The Birth of Tragedy, The Case of Wagner and Ecce Homo. Are these complete? I bought a book called The Portable Nietzsche which contained Thus Spoke Zaratustra, Twilight of the Idols and The Antichrist in their entity and I want to make sure that the Modern Library book is the same with the works that it contains before I get it. That way, I can pretty much have all the important Nieztche works in two volumes.

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my opinion, if walter kaufman translated it, its good to go.

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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin

If God is nothing more than a "concept," then perhaps Nietzsche's right. But if God is not merely "concept' but actually a Divine Reality, then Nietzsche is wrong and the world needs Him now more than ever.

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You're missing the point. It doesn't matter if God is really up there or not. We as a civilization need to move ourselves forward by overcoming ourselves.

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Originally Posted by hyperborean

You're missing the point. It doesn't matter if God is really up there or not. We as a civilization need to move ourselves forward by overcoming ourselves.

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i'm not sure that is the point. "rationality ( aka concepts) is a dangerous force that undermines life." REd Zep is putting god out there as a thing that might exist outside the realm of concepts (aka the ideal). the ideal and reality need to be seen clearly, and the latter needs to be affirmed, the former rejected as a decadent of life itself. so what is concept and what is reality is of the utmost importance to nietzche.



if by moving ourselves forward by overcoming ourselves you mean deconstructing the typical image of man in favor what man truly is, then i agree. we need to get past ideals, tradition, and other systems of contol to find what we "are" and quit looking for "what we should be." amor fati!

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Originally Posted by billyjack

if by moving ourselves forward by overcoming ourselves you mean deconstructing the typical image of man in favor what man truly is, then i agree. we need to get past ideals, tradition, and other systems of contol to find what we "are" and quit looking for "what we should be." amor fati!

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indeed:thumbs_up

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Originally Posted by hyperborean

It doesn't matter if God is really up there or not.

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This statement is only true if God does not exist. If He does exist, then this statement is meaningless.

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Originally Posted by hyperborean

We as a civilization need to move ourselves forward by overcoming ourselves.

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Which, as the Bible indicates, we are incapable of doing on our own, in-and-of ourselves. That's why the atheist society that Dawkins seems to be advocating would not work - crime, sin, hypocrisy, manipulation and everything else would still be here because human nature, not Christianity or God, is what's causing our problems. We cannot transcend human nature by ourselves; and, once God's out of the picture, why control ourselves at all? As Dostoyevsky wrote in The Brothers Karamozov: "If God does not exist, then everything is permitted."

We are incapable of creating the Utopia that you (and/or Nietzsche) seem to believe lies just beyond the horizon. We can only create chaos, pain and suffering.

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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin

This statement is only true if God does not exist. If He does exist, then this statement is meaningless.

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Wrong. Enough of this "we need God to survive" BS.

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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin

Which, as the Bible indicates, we are incapable of doing on our own, in-and-of ourselves. That's why the atheist society that Dawkins seems to be advocating would not work - crime, sin, hypocrisy, manipulation and everything else would still be here because human nature, not Christianity or God, is what's causing our problems. We cannot transcend human nature by ourselves; and, once God's out of the picture, why control ourselves at all? As Dostoyevsky wrote in The Brothers Karamozov: "If God does not exist, then everything is permitted."

We are incapable of creating the Utopia that you (and/or Nietzsche) seem to believe lies just beyond the horizon. We can only create chaos, pain and suffering.

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Your post alone is the reason behind western civilization's downfall. I laughed out loud when reading that post. I love how you reference the bible as if it's something not to reckon with. Keep worshiping some book.:lol:

I also like how you believe we need God in order to retain our human morals. {edited} I'll quote maynard once again..."Deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow.
What you need is someone strong to guide you."

Hyperborean> Please do not personalise your arguments.

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Originally Posted by billyjack

my opinion, if walter kaufman translated it, its good to go.

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Yup, it's Kaufman!

I believe Nietzche's big beef with Christianity and European Christians was that they took The Old Testament and New Testament to be the same book, or Bible if you will. To him, they were completely different in form and message. I think the message in both was salvation through sacrifice which was ultimetly made real when God took mortal form as Jesus Christ. Nieztche did not like the God of the Old Testament and couldnt understand the underlying message beneath the message in it. As a believer I myself am having a hard time understanding how God acted in The Old Testament compared with The New Testament. Neiztche was all so a very cynical person, but very caring as well. I don't think it's fair to describe him as an atheist. Definetly agnostic, as he always felt the real truth was knowing that there would always be a question and a question mark. He was constantly searching and he definetly tried to break barriers when it came to what was moral and what was ethical. For that I commend him. I just wish he could have done it in a more cohesive way. Like most philosophers I've read, he doesn't make much sense, especially when he gets into metaphysics. But hey, that's why they are so intelligent, they think so much and really, in the end, what you think and how you feel only really makes sense to you. Right?

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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin

Which, as the Bible indicates, we are incapable of doing on our own, in-and-of ourselves.

We are incapable of creating the Utopia that you (and/or Nietzsche) seem to believe lies just beyond the horizon. We can only create chaos, pain and suffering.

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there are no "in and of themselves"...this is the way it is.

the second quote is a pretty humbling view of mankind--

and humbling or selflessness is the cornerstone of religions, so i see how this quote could be construed. but, to quote N, "The loss of the center of gravity, resistance to the natural instincts--in one word 'selflessness'--that is what was hitherto called morality--the unselfing of man."

needless to say, this "humble attitude" is seen as an infection in nietzche's eyes.

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Originally Posted by Robert Jordan

I believe Nietzche's big beef with Christianity and European Christians was that they took The Old Testament and New Testament to be the same book, or Bible if you will. To him, they were completely different in form and message. I think the message in both was salvation through sacrifice which was ultimetly made real when God took mortal form as Jesus Christ. Nieztche did not like the God of the Old Testament and couldnt understand the underlying message beneath the message in it. As a believer I myself am having a hard time understanding how God acted in The Old Testament compared with The New Testament. Neiztche was all so a very cynical person, but very caring as well. I don't think it's fair to describe him as an atheist. Definetly agnostic, as he always felt the real truth was knowing that there would always be a question and a question mark. He was constantly searching and he definetly tried to break barriers when it came to what was moral and what was ethical. For that I commend him. I just wish he could have done it in a more cohesive way. Like most philosophers I've read, he doesn't make much sense, especially when he gets into metaphysics. But hey, that's why they are so intelligent, they think so much and really, in the end, what you think and how you feel only really makes sense to you. Right?

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:thumbs_up Very much agreed. Nietzsches philosophy can be interpreted many ways, and i personally believe that he was not trying to attack religion but merely put societys use of religion into question.

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Originally Posted by Robert Jordan

As a believer I myself am having a hard time understanding how God acted in The Old Testament compared with The New Testament. Neiztche was all so a very cynical person, but very caring as well. I don't think it's fair to describe him as an atheist. Definetly agnostic, as he always felt the real truth was knowing that there would always be a question and a question mark. He was constantly searching and he definetly tried to break barriers when it came to what was moral and what was ethical. For that I commend him.

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Very true. "God" in the old and new testament differ. One unleashes locusts and the other brings down a savior. :p

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Originally Posted by billyjack

needless to say, this "humble attitude" is seen as an infection in nietzche's eyes.

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pretty much. it's an infection in my eyes as well.

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Originally Posted by hyperborean

Wrong. Enough of this "we need God to survive" BS.

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Sorry - it's true. You're not required to believe it for it to be true. Reality exists whether or not you wish to acknowledge it.

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Originally Posted by hyperborean

Your post alone is the reason behind western civilization's downfall. I laughed out loud when reading that post. I love how you reference the bible as if it's something not to reckon with. Keep worshiping some book.:lol:

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I'd be more impressed if you actually dealt with what I said rather than just make fun of if. Do you not have an argument in response?

I worship the God behind the Bible - not the book itself; the book in-and-of-itself has no power to transform life and (even more importantly) to redeem it.

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Originally Posted by hyperborean

I also like how you believe we need God in order to retain our human morals. {edited} I'll quote maynard once again..."Deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow.
What you need is someone strong to guide you."

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Morality only exists because God exists. Believe as you wish. You are free to "follow" yourself - but we as humans have shown a remarkable ability for "following" ourselves into trouble of all sorts.

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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin

Morality only exists because God exists. Believe as you wish. You are free to "follow" yourself - but we as humans have shown a remarkable ability for "following" ourselves into trouble of all sorts.

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Humans have been equally remarkeable, if not more, at following religion in touble of all sorts, be it in the name of God, Yaweh, Allah, etc.