My poor old kitty had bowel problems and was huge, white and shed everywhere. But I loved him anyway. When I was little, I would pick him up and accidentally squeeze him till he pooped. I feel bad about that...Quote:
Originally Posted by Shalot
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My poor old kitty had bowel problems and was huge, white and shed everywhere. But I loved him anyway. When I was little, I would pick him up and accidentally squeeze him till he pooped. I feel bad about that...Quote:
Originally Posted by Shalot
and I thought we had problems :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by BeccaT
poor cat! poor you!
well, no. But my dog always pees on my blanket, which I have to HANDWASH! so I have to keep the door locked (which I forget) or else, it'll poop on the carpet also and make me have to scrub it for an hour. Then, it'll try to eat my undies! Bad dog, bad! :sick:Quote:
Originally Posted by Shalot
Fifth Element:
There is new evidence out to suggest that domesticated dogs literally evolved to read human emotional responses as a survival tactic. Species interdependence is nothing new, shelters simply impose limits on territorial space. *Cruel* I think, takes it a bit far. If humans understand the needs of animals in a captive environment, and provides, I am not sure how cruel it is. I have had cats in one form or another for 20 years, and when I lived in the burbs, the big orange male we let run outside got killed by a car. Sure, the two I have now get a bit restless in the studio, and want trees, and to go out, and they will make that known--but they like walking the hallway, and I buy them toys and pay attention to them, and when they do catch mice they are doing public housing a service. They think I am mom, they get medical attention, and my first, Oliver, lived slightly longer than 19 years. Had he stayed in inner-city Jersey, where he came from, he would have probably stayed infested with fleas and would have been lucky to make it past 10.
Mammals adapt pretty quickly, and nature may be favorable for life to thrive, but it is otherwise indifferent. A lion getting its jaw crushed in a hunt faces what I imagine would be an agonizing death--if humans intervene, and destroy it humanely, that seems less cruel. Our civilization comes at a price, but when we die off, and we will, of that I am fairly positive--the mammals surviving us will adapt fairly rapidly, I am sure--although I don't know if another human-like animal would re-emerge. Maybe souls watch all this with heaven's version of microwave popcorn.:D
Jozy, that is such a beautifuly reasoned and presented argument. I enjoyed reading it. :) It's basically what I said throughout the thread, but you said it better. ;)
Just a note on the original vein, as I saw it, of this thread, that 'owning pets is cruel'.
I don't have a black nor white answer for this question. There is always going to be some grey that I have to reckon with. :nod:
A beef, if you will, that I have is that people who 'order' pure bred dogs could easily have a wonderful pet if they went to animal rescue centres (i.e. if they wanted a doberman, go to a doberman rescue centre -- not difficult to find with a computer now-a-days). OR they could go to animal rescue stations, where unwanted puppies are abandoned recklessly by irresponsible owners, and the list goes on and on.
On another thought -- people who try to squelch the very will of an animal to absolutely obey the human -- they are horrible people to witness, be around. Yes, to have a dog (I use the dog example because I have Pepper, my animal friend) one needs to train it to not do things that may be natural to the dog (mark the carpet with urine as territorial, eat my shoes for fun, etc.). We train our dog to coexist with us in our home, I don't feel that I am squelching her very canine instincts in order to do this.
BUT: we had a trainer at one time try to get us to do an ALPHA WOLF HOLD on Pepper, which was preposterous (I thought). Pepper is a little miniature schnauzer. When this move was suggested -- Pepper was under sixteen weeks old, less than twelve pounds ... need I go on?
AND: this trainer was well recognized in our circle of dog trainers as having that special touch. BAH! She was evil I tell ya!! :crash:
Anyhow those were some of my reflections on the topic. Sorry so wordy! :blush:
You know what's cruel?
Leaving an animal in an unsafe environment where they're half starved and rabid.
If a person can give a dog a better life, why not? This discussion is stupid.
Hmmmm, thems strong words, Sheep. However, I respect the fact that you want a good life for an animal, glad you responded.Quote:
Originally Posted by aBIGsheep
However, the discussion cannot be written off as 'stupid'. Just my two cents worth. :)
is owning a pet, an animal, despite what species it may be nothing more than an extension of the human ego? Sure, you say you are a loving compassionate individual. Is that what 'owning' an animal is really about? That is not altruistic. So what is it then? It is about you, the human. It must be translated into selfish terms. It isn't about the welfare of animals, since free choice is not given in the first place. Don't we need to identify that place which resides within - which humans need to satisfy. It turns out that pets have a marvellous knack of filling this void. Why paint it any other way than what it is?
You seem to have lost some of the romanticism of being human ... Which is understandable, for people like us, who live in the big city.
However fictional, I remember the relationship between Dances-with-wolves (Lt. John Dunbar) and the wolf Two-socks. If we go back in our first ancestors, it was the making of a friendship to make friendship with a beast, giving it food, and making it trust you, because you loved him, and was lonely, maybe ...
It can't be generalized. There are some relationships between man and animal that I don't recommend! But, well, it all depends on how you measure your actions and feelings in general.
I find it interesting to have friendship with animals.
I used to be afraid of dogs, when I was a kid. And cats.
In a certain part of my life, I began understanding dogs (with "a little help of my" god ...), then, a while after (some years) I was still afraid of cats, but a friend (a girl) helped me to make friends with cats.
I'm still afraid of horses, I think because they're too big. It's going to be tough to go over it, because it isn't easy or cheap to have access to horses, but I still have a dream of learning to have friends among horses, or at least to loose the fear of them.
There are a lot of other animals ... These are the three kinds I think about.
Libri~
:crash:
All humans work in their own interest. Whatever YOU do, YOU'RE always going to be working in YOUR own interest. Saying that having an animal for the sake of increasing YOUR own ego is diluted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta40
If I take a piss in the morning, I'm working in my own interest. If I buy a house and have a kids it's because I want a house and kids.
Are you saying that, although I'm developing a parasitic relationship to an animal, I'm suddenly impacting its life in a negative way? No. If I have a pet I'll take care of it. In exchange, he gives me his lovin'. But is that selfish? No. I don't see how your argument really is, errr, arguing much of anything. Just saying that humans have pets to increase their own peen is natural. umans, by nature, hell, everything and anything by nature, is always going to work in its own self-interest first and foremost. As long as you take care of the dogs, jeez, feel free.
Everything is an extension of the human ego. That argument can be translated into EVERY argument possible. Jeezus, I swear, man. I've said the same thing whenever I ran out of things to say.
Sheep, if it makes you feel any better, I'm with you. This is silly. Dogs and cats are domesticated animals. I know it's a big word, but what part of domesticated don't they not understand?
You know, that was wonderful. You are right and I salute you. :thumbs_upQuote:
Originally Posted by aBIGsheep
:DDD
Fo surius
I'm glad you agree with me.
Lol. Perhaps you're right. I am not sure where the word 'cruel' comes into the debate. However, I do know that owning a pet is for my satisfaction first and foremost and secondly the animal's - or to put it another way; I would at least rationalize that it is in the interest of the animals once I decide to own a pet, domesticated or not. Do I need to look further on this topic? That is rather like asking me if Chum is superior to Pedigree Pal.