D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by islandclimber

I love Coutts and Winifred as well.. I sympathize with them both entirely.. well I wouldn't even call it sympathize for I do not especially see there actions as wrong... Maybe hedonistic.. but I suppose it depends upon your outlook of what is right and wrong...

---

I would feel sorry for your girlfriend.

I do not think any man or woman would be fine with their fiance going to the house alone of an old lover, with the full intent of starting up an affair with them just for old times sake.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by islandclimber

I find to be two still quite young people in all the glory and power and sexuality that their age comes with... they are just doing what would please them, what makes them happy... and why shouldn't they.. and why shouldn't Coutts, love Connie and at the same time love another... No one here really had a problem with the gallant affairs of the woman in the last story... is that only because her husband knew and was okay with it???

---

So self-happiness at the expense of everyone else?

The difference from the last story is that indeed it was completely open and honest. The wife hid nothing from her husband and he accepted what was going on. In this way the two of them together made a lifestyle choice. He could have divorced her if he was unhappy about it, but he choose to live with things as they are.

In this story Coutts is clearly going behind the back of Connie in what he is doing. He is betraying her trust and her love of him. There is no indication that she has any idea as to what is going on. And it seems quite clear from Coutt's actions that she does not know anything about what he is up to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by islandclimber

but still, if Coutts wants to go on passionately with Winifred, while marrying Connie, then why shouldn't he? if that is what makes him happy, and if Connie is happy with him, and if Winifred is okay with this setup.. I say do what makes you happy, and if others have a problem with that, well, then they just don't have to be a part of your life... Connie can leave him if she finds out...

---

Connie would not be happy if she knew what he was up to with Winnie, and that is completely unfair and quite cruel to think that her husband should marry her while he has ever intent of being unfaithful to her, and if she does not like it, than it is her problem.

He should break the engagement with her, and come clean.

Not to mention the fact, that it was not so easy for women to just leave their husbands back than. Not to mention that being a divorced could make it difficult for her to marry again, even if she herself did no wrong in the marriage

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Virgil

Except that Coutts is not in a quandry. He's not even ambivilant about Connie. He's sneakily seeking out this old girl friend. Where do we even get that he's unsure about Connie?

---

Virgil, did you hear me mention your name again? I was doing my witch-craft on you, again...like summoning the dead. :lol: Anyway, I felt it from his insecurity about his relationship in these lines and his sketchy way of not really committing by saying he would marry when he could afford it. To me that was putting it off and using that as an excuse not to take the final steps to marry.

Quote:

---

"And are you still engaged to your Constance?" she asked of Coutts, with a touch of mockery this time. Coutts nodded.
"And how is she?" asked the widow.
"I believe she is very well--unless my delay has upset her," said Coutts, his tongue between his teeth. It hurt him to give pain to his fiancée, and yet he did it wilfully.
"Do you know, she always reminds me of a Bunbury--I call her your Miss Bunbury," Laura laughed.
Coutts did not answer.
"We missed you so much when you first went away," Laura began, reestablishing the proprieties.
"Thank you," he said. She began to laugh wickedly.
"On Friday evenings," she said, adding quickly: "Oh, and this is Friday evening, and Winifred is coming just as she used to--how long ago?--ten months?"
"Ten months," Coutts corroborated.
"Did you quarrel with Winifred?" she asked suddenly.
"Winifred never quarrels," he answered.
"I don't believe she does. Then why did you go away? You are such a puzzle to me, you know--and I shall never rest till I have had it out of you. Do you mind?"
"I like it," he said, quietly, flashing a laugh at her.
She laughed, then settled herself in a dignified, serious way.
"No, I can't make you out at all--nor can I Winifred. You are a pair! But it's you who are the real wonder. When are you going to be married?"
"I don't know--When I am sufficiently well off."

---

Then later when he is alone with Winifred in the night I think they bring up something about Connie. I just get the impression that relationship is not really a set one, even though he claims to be engaged to her.

Quote:

---

Oh I don't think it was just a social visit. There is a passage where they discuss why do people do what they do. This was no accident. Frakly I think you're reading into the story there Janine. There is no evidence that he was going to tell Connie anything.

---

I know, you are right. I should not have used the word 'social' for visit. I am wrong. Yes, I do know of that passage and also the part about 'Free Will' that the old man and Laura mention momentarily. Yes, I know too much of the background of this story and you are right, it is going against me being objective and so I have to look at it in a different light now. But instinctively I still do not think either woman is right for Coutts. He is a confused young man. I didn't ever think he would tell her but wonder what he will say happened to his hands. I was just kidding when I ended my post with that question. ;)

I read in my book that this story is related in someways to 'The Shades of Spring' and I was thinking about it when I read it first time. There are some parellels and some reversals.

Antiquarian,

Hehe thank you.

I almost feel like Coutts is on trail, and I am the prosecutor. But I cannot help it, I just have very strong opinions about things.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Antiquarian

Great post, DM.

If my husband did what Coutts did, well, he would not be my husband. LOL

---

I second that! Good post DM, and very well put.

I know, Antiquarian - was all wrong about the social visit thing. That is not really what I was getting at when I said it. Can we all just drop that idea as my mistake. I am guilty!:(

So, does everyone think that Coutts just sought out the old girlfriend for sex? Seriously, is that all they had going for them? I am just curious to know what you all think. Was there more attraction between them than the physical?

Also, let me ask this - do you all think now that Coutts will go through with his marriage to Connie?

Amazing we're all on together tonight. I'm not going to comment again until I re-read the story. :) Good night ladies.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Janine

So, does everyone think that Coutts just sought out the old girlfriend for sex? Seriously, is that all they had going for them? I am just curious to know what you all think. Was there more attraction between them than the physical?

---

That is a tough one, I do not know if thier past relationship was purely a physcial one, but I think that they were much more of a physcial attraction/relationship, than he and Connie.

There was one conversation at the end, that might suggest they were primarly a sexual attraction, as they both quite clearly seem agreed upon the fact the could certaintly never marry each other.

Quote:

---

You know, Winifred, we should only drive each other into insantiy, you and I: become abmormal.

"Well," she said, "and even so, why the other?"

"My marrige--I do not know. Instinct"

"One has so many instincts," she laughed bitterly

---

Than later one he says:

Quote:

---

"You know you only like a wild-goose chase"

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Janine

Also, let me ask this - do you all think now that Coutts will go through with his marriage to Connie?

---

This is a tough call. But the way it ended, I do not know if I can see him going through with the marriage. I am not quite sure if he would acutally confess to Connie, but I think it might be over for him.

Quote:

---

Janine, I think the relationship between Coutts and Winifred was purely physical.

---

Not so sure of it entirely,since DM points out the line where he says she is always a wild goose chase. Is she just a tease or has she truly been physical with him in the biblical sense?

Quote:

---

No, I don't think he'd go through with his marriage to Connie. I would think he'd go to her with those burned hands and confess his guilt and the marriage would be off. I get the idea that that's what happened anyway.

---

Neither do I. I think that is precisely what he would do or lie about his hands
and then break off the relationship in the end.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dark Muse

That is a tough one, I do not know if thier past relationship was purely a physcial one, but I think that they were much more of a physcial attraction/relationship, than he and Connie.

---

Ok, I will buy that.

Quote:

---

There was one conversation at the end, that might suggest they were primarly a sexual attraction, as they both quite clearly seem agreed upon the fact the could certaintly never marry each other.

---

Ok, that might be a clue.

Quote:

---

a tough call. But the way it ended, I do not know if I can see him going through with the marriage. I am not quite sure if he would acutally confess to Connie, but I think it might be over for him.

---

I think this killed it for him. I think it will be over. I don't think he truly loves Connie, not as he should.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Virgil

Amazing we're all on together tonight. I'm not going to comment again until I re-read the story. :) Good night ladies.

---

Yeah, funny huh...we are the night shift...and the morning shift and the day shift....we are all kind of addicted I believe!:lol:

Night night, Virgie! Night everyone - Dark Muse and Antiquarian, whomever else is awake! Sleep well all....:yawnb: It has been fun today.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Antiquarian

I meant purely physical in the sense of attraction, only, Janine. I don't think Coutts and Winifred had ever been physically intimate. Sorry, my mistake. I should have more clear. I do think Coutts intends to break it off with Connie as he knows he couldn't be faithful to her and he wants to be faithful to a woman. I think his horror comes from the fact that he almost wasn't. (Well, in a sense, he did betray her.)

---

Antiquarian, is that really you? I thought someone stole you avatar today and mine, too. I don't think I have time today for that game. Maybe I will just plain change mine today to one of my own photos. I hate to be 'sour grapes', but 'just what I don't need today - more confusion in my life. I am wondering why you still have yours, as it was. Did you refrain from changing it? I thought it was you that stole mine. ;) :lol:

Anyway, this is so curious - I just came online and as I was waiting for this forum and this page to load, I was reading about Helen Corke, and Louie in my Brenda Maddox biography book and about how very frustrated Lawrence was at this time. He had been ill (often in bed) most of the year and it talks a lot about his restlessness and sexual frustrations, too. Geez, I will have to scan this and sent it to you; it is good reading, interesting.
Anyway, apparently neither woman would give into his sexual advances. Also, it is stated that he was all the time seeing Helen, when he was engaged to Louie. I think they both knew about each other for a number of years. The two woman may have even been friends, as well. I don't think this means he was seeing Helen 'romantically', definitely not 'intimately'; they simply had never stopped their contact and they were good friends; at least, this is how I am perceiving it. So to go on, he still kept contact with Helen, until one day he did propose having sex with her; of which she flatly turned him down, igniting a lot of resentment or rage towards her and towards the other woman as well (Louie). The biographer, Brenda Maddox states:

Quote:

---

He still intended to go through with the marriage, but seethed at the price men were expected to pay for socially sanctioned sex. Helen Corke bore the brunt.

---

Then a paragraph later she continues:

Quote:

---

With a frankness he never accorded Louie, he told Helen that, although he could never completely love either her or Louie, Louie at least would leave him free. "And I cannot marry save where I am not held.*"

---

* this last line would refer back to how he felt about his mother and her control over him. Don't read this as being totally free to go off and have sexual liasons while he is married. Lawrence was very much against that after the marriage vowels. He held marriage as sacrad and throught monogomously.

But Lawrence was young, sexually frustrated and was very bitter at this time and he had been ill for a year (even fearing the dreaded TB), so he most likely, in this anger and anxiety had built to a boiling point; he was not altogether thinking clearly, either. Brenda Maddox goes on to say:

Quote:

---

By now marriage and money were so firmly entwined in his mind that, in a vow written at nearly one o'clock in the morning, he spat out his acceptance that women had their "market price": "I will never ask for sex relationship again, never, unless I can give the dirty coin of marriage: unless it be a prostitude, whom I can love because I'm sorry for her.

---

It also mentions how Louie who represents Connie, who we know little about, and she did nag him about various things - whether he drank, smoked, cursed or would attend church with her, once they were married. She also nagged him about money; quite a bit until it seemed to come to a head when Lawrence lend a good friend money for his wife to have a gynecological operation. I get the sense he knew that this relationship between Louie and himself was not going to work out, in the end. Her parents were against the marriage, from the start; they thought of Lawrence as an "irreligious rascal".

I thought this little bit of background might help us understand how Lawrence, represented in the story by Coutts, was thinking at the time he wrote this story. I will try to scan this part of the book and send to you, Antiquarian - you will enjoy reading it.

Ok, asside from this, last night I read more of the story - basically up until the part when the little house concert begins. I want to post some text tomorrow and point out things that now have stood out to me clearer.

I also read over the Michael Black commentary and hope to share much of that with all of you. I think you will get much insight from that commentary.

Now, I was thinking of our discussion so far and wondering why we keep getting stuck on deciding if we 'like, dislike, hate, love' the characters. I think we have spend a number of pages hashing this about, and I wondered if we could try and look at other aspects of the story and see just what motivated the characters to 'act and react' as they do. There is also, so much beautiful writing and symbolism in this story. I love the way the evening and night skies have been described. Those stand out to me particularly. Also the floral descriptions are lovely and seem to me very meaningful.

Gee wiz...I was thinking how poor Coutts has been 'crucified' right here in this very thread, and he didn't commit as bad a crime as slitting throats in "Sweeny Todd"; people are giving Sweeny more sympathy than poor Coutts; they seem to even worship the character. I wonder if Johnny Depp played Coutts, if we would all sympathise with him a little more. Everyone says - well ST had a good excuse for getting revenge. It is the same with the trends these days in many movies, I notice and much sympathy for dark characters, with excuses to do all kinds of outrageous things.
Then I had a funny thought, when Coutts sees the moon and thinks about 'sacrifice', I wonder if we are not the ones with the sharp blade doing the poor guy in. :bawling: Let's cut the guy some slack today...no pun intended...:)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Janine

There is also, so much beautiful writing and symbolism in this story. I love the way the evening and night skies have been described. Those stand out to me particularly. Also the floral descriptions are lovely and seem to me very meaningful.

---

I hadn't noticed the symbolism in the sky descriptions. I'm trying to remember them now. We get one at the beginning, and another when they're on the dark hill. Are there any others? What do they symbolize?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Janine

Gee wiz...I was thinking how poor Coutts has been 'crucified' right here in this very thread, and he didn't commit as bad a crime as slitting throats in "Sweeny Todd"; people are giving Sweeny more sympathy than poor Coutts; they seem to even worship the character. I wonder if Johnny Depp played Coutts, if we would all sympathise with him a little more. Everyone says - well ST had a good excuse for getting revenge. It is the same with the trends these days in many movies, I notice and much sympathy for dark characters, with excuses to do all kinds of outrageous things

---

What can I say to me slitting the throats of people whom have wronged you is forgivable and understandable. I am not really against revenge.

But to betray someone who you have made a promise to and who loves you, well I cannot abide by that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Janine

Then I had a funny thought, when Coutts sees the moon and thinks about 'sacrifice', I wonder if we are not the ones with the sharp blade doing the poor guy in. :bawling: Let's cut the guy some slack today...no pun intended...:)

---

I do not think I can do that. I can't really bring myself to feel sorry for him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Antiquarian

Hi I'm not in favor of men having romantic liaisons of any kind while engaged, but I understand Coutts, and have kind of come to like him. After all, he was horrified at his own tendencies and he did want to remain true to Connie. He had a conscience.

---

I do not know if I completely agree with the fact that he wanted to remain true to Connie. For if he did, he would not have gone back alone to Winnie's house, and the only reason I think, that they did not end up in bed together, is because he realized Winni herself did not want that from him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Antiquarian

Hi Janine,

It's really me. You'll discover what happened to our avatars in a little while. Don't change yours, okay?

---

Now I think I remember, Virgil stole mine.:lol: Someone stole yours, I think. I was going to steal his, but someone took it already. Are you going to change yours? I don't really have the time today to change mine, and besides I am going to be mighty confused in threads, when people go switching avatars....Glory bee!...what next? I actually, don't find it that amusing. I know that sounds crabby, but I am trying to be less confused and not more so.:confused:

Quote:

---

Thanks for all the background information. That does make the story much clearer, though I still don't know why Coutts was so surprised to see the anemones on the piano.

---

Oh good, glad that helped. I found it interesting. Thing is I start reading a few pages of the bio and I want to read it all again...it is fascinting.
Yes, we still have to figure that one out, about the red flowers; you sure are curious about that, aren't you? Well, poppies represent soldiers who have fallen/died and the idea of remembrance after death. I wonder if it could have anything to do 'subconsciously' with Lawrence's mother just dying, her control over him in life/now her death and the fact, that he sees Winifred as a person who would have control over him (like his mother did), which would be deadly to him. Also his mother played the piano and now they sit on the piano and not the table.
Hey,Dark Muse, do poppies signify anything to do with witchcraft? Red could also signify the 'blood-consciousness' for Lawrence. I don't definitively know quite yet, but I will try researching it for you, A. That is really bugging you, I can tell....and on the piano...it is curious...I admit.

Quote:

---

I'm not in favor of men having romantic liaisons of any kind while engaged, but I understand Coutts, and have kind of come to like him. After all, he was horrified at his own tendencies and he did want to remain true to Connie. He had a conscience.

---

Well, I don't approve either. I know for a fact, that the real engagement did not work out and of course we can plainly see why. I didn't think it would; neither did I think this one would in the story would work. If Coutts was truly in-love with Connie, he would not be straying from her. I am glad, Antiquarian, that you are not so judgemental about him now. I don't think we have the right, to just say I like or I dislike him. There is much that does not meet the eye here.
I sympathise with young men like Lawrence. In actuality, he was a virgin into his early to mid 20's. Can you imagine how frustrated men were? Woman must have been so, as well. Also, I see him as confused and more so in his wanting to see Helen. He must have been an emotional mess, when he pursued this action.
He most certainly did have a 'conscience.' Also, to think about it and how many men and women were stuck in loveless marriages back then, because they did commit to a woman/man eventually and did not truly know her/him, not just intimately, but emotionally, as well. It was a 'smaller', more 'contained' world back then and men and women did not have the broad choices they have now, especially since they were expected to pick a 'proper' spouse. The time and areas they lived in made it very limited for them.
Apparently, much is lacking with his relationship to Connie, as it was with Louie Burrows. I think Lawrence would have perceived Coutts this way and this story this way, as well. In this story, he is actually working out his own questions and confusion on women and sex.

Quote:

---

Quark, I remember the stars and the moon, but I'll have to go back and read the descriptions of the sky. I did love the floral descriptions, though.

---

Quark and Antiquarian, Yes, there is some symbolism in the two descriptions of the skies, but I will get to that later on and progress from the beginning images and later talk about the ending. The florals were lovely and I think they too, have much symbolism embodied in them...they both also have forshadowing. I will try and post the beginning text tonight so we can discuss it tomorrow. A, I particularly like the one when he said the house had a white blanket of alyssum....I was thinking that idea of a blanket would be comforting to a person who had been ill for so long. Actually, it says "the broad white cloth of alyssum flowers that hung down the garden walls"...that is so beautiful and inviting, comforting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dark Muse

What can I say to me slitting the throats of people whom have wronged you is forgivable and understandable. I am not really against revenge.

---

No, Dark Muse, you misunderstand. It is "Sweeny Todd" who is doing the slitting of throats and everyone says they feel sorry for him, the serial killer. Same on TV now days, one of my friends said that she liked "Dextor" and it deals with a serial killer, getting revenge on bad people. Sorry, I don't support that or revenge in, anyway. Killing is horrible, anyway you view it, in my opinion. It is the taking of life; and who made someone them judge, and jury and even God to decide it is right to do?

Quote:

---

But to betray someone who you have made a promise to and who loves you, well I cannot abide by that.

---

So he is suppose to go and marry someone he does not truly love? No, well that would be just as big if not worse a crime for both of them? Better to find out now how he feels about life than pay for it later.
One circumstance cannot dictate another. All cases are different. I agree I can't abide by people breaking a promise but it would be better than sticking to one and being miserable all your married life.

Quote:

---

I do not think I can do that. I can't really bring myself to feel sorry for him.

---

Then don't, but just don't concentrate so much, in the story, about that one factor. There is much in this story to discuss and agree on. I don't really like all this hassling in this thread. I guess I like keeping it somewhat peaceful in here. So we all disagree on Coutts...let's just get on with the rest of the story elements, that I already mentioned. If anyone doesn't like this story they don't have to discuss it at all. We all have free will in here. I like the story and so do others, so we should discuss the writing and other things, not just judging the character of the various people in the tale.

Quote:

---

I do not know if I completely agree with the fact that he wanted to remain true to Connie. For if he did, he would not have gone back alone to Winnie's house, and the only reason I think, that they did not end up in bed together, is because he realized Winni herself did not want that from him.

---

I don't think he did at all and I don't honestly think he truly loved her. It would have been a loveless marriage had they gone through with their engagement. Maybe Coutts was looking for a good excuse to break it off and even accepting his own guilt, would be better than being married to a woman, he knew deep-down, he did not love or want to spend the rest of his life with. At least that is my take on the whole thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Janine

No, Dark Muse, you misunderstand. It is "Sweeny Todd" who is doing the slitting of throats and everyone says they feel sorry for him, the serial killer. Same on TV now days, one of my friends said that she liked "Dextor" and it deals with a serial killer, getting revenge on bad people. Sorry, I don't support that or revenge in, anyway. Killing is horrible, anyway you view it, in my opinion. It is the taking of life; and who made someone them judge, and jury and even God to decide it is right to do?

---

I think you misunderstand me. I know Sweeny Todd is the one doing the killing, but in the movie, he is slitting the throats of poeple whom have done something to him first. It is not just random killing. He suffered a horrible wrong, and is avenging himself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Janine

So he is suppose to go and marry someone he does not truly love? No, well that would be just as big if not worse a crime for both of them? Better to find out now how he feels about life than pay for it later.
One circumstance cannot dictate another. All cases are different. I agree I can't abide by people breaking a promise but it would be better than sticking to one and being miserable all your married life.?

---

I never said that. I said he should either be faithful to her, or tell her the truth, not sneek behind her back to see his ex-lover.

Do you notice anything strange, Janine? :p :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Janine

Now I think I remember, Virgil stole mine.:lol: Someone stole yours, I think. I was going to steal his, but someone took it already. Are you going to change yours? I don't really have the time today to change mine, and besides I am going to be mighty confused in threads, when people go switching avatars....Glory bee!...what next? I actually, don't find it that amusing. I know that sounds crabby, but I am trying to be less confused and not more so.:confused:

---

:lol: I'm sorry Janine. I was actually going to take Antiquarian's but my wife said to take yours. Actually I think you would have been more confused if I took Anti's. :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Antiquarian

Janine and DM, while I don't condone at all what Coutts did, I can understand why he did it and cut him a bit of slack. After all, he's human, he makes mistakes just like we do, and Lawrence was only twenty-five when he wrote the story. I don't have to like or condone what he did in order to be able to understand and forgive. I wouldn't do it, but that's me. Winifred must bear some of the guilt, I think, as she didn't put a stop to his flirting.

DM, you're right, Coutts should have not given in to temptation, but he's a human being and fiction is, for the most part, about the failings of human beings, not the times they managed to remain above all wrong. Not trying to say Coutts or Winifred were right in their actions, they weren't, but they are human.

---

I just do not think that just becasue someone his human is a good enough excuse to forgive them of all wrong that they do. As they say, often doing the right thing is the hard thing, but that dosen't mean you should just ignore it because it is easier not to.

Though Winni should not have been flitring with someone who was committed to another woman, even if they were only engaged and not married, Winni was not the one who has a responseablity to Connie.

And Winni is ultimately the one who prevented Coutts from going any farther with it than he did.