Evolution vs. Creation

The unfortunate thing about probabilety is that, they cant be used to deny things. if there is a chance, it could have happened, if it could have happend in an Einstinian infinite universe it probably has happend somewere and hear could be that somewhere.

where as creation has no basis in epirical fact only in the bible and the harts of beleavers.

Christinas should not use maths to defend there stance, it is untenable. use Love, it is the one and only savign grace of the faith. logic falls apart when built on faith becuse it requies epirical evidence to be truly safe, somthing Creation can't provide.
a book writen by 100s of authors translated though aramaic to greek to latin to engish and german then to hundreds of other languages over centurys canot be used by a logical person as a fair representation of the facts, and as such should be used as a fable to explain the world.

Love x

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Originally Posted by Lustandwine

The unfortunate thing about probabilety is that, they cant be used to deny things. if there is a chance, it could have happened, if it could have happend in an Einstinian infinite universe it probably has happend somewere and hear could be that somewhere.

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So then why don't you tell me what the odds are that God exists/doesn't exist, so I can quote your statement above right back to you - since the same argument that allows the astronomical odds of big-bang/evolution should be comparable to the odds that a Divine Being exists.

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Originally Posted by Lustandwine

where as creation has no basis in epirical fact only in the bible and the harts of beleavers.

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Yes, let's talk "empirical facts," shall we? Evolution cannot be tested; it lacks real "evidence" and relies on circumstancial evidence that can be interpreted to mean a number of things; it must ultimately account for the existence of matter; both evolution and creationism require a "miracle" of sorts. In contrast, the complexity of life and "fine-tuning" of the solar system indicate the presence of a "designer" - a conclusion that is much more logical than the idea that blind force and random chance created such complexity and finely balanced conditions.

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Originally Posted by Lustandwine

Christinas should not use maths to defend there stance, it is untenable. use Love, it is the one and only savign grace of the faith. logic falls apart when built on faith becuse it requies epirical evidence to be truly safe, somthing Creation can't provide.

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The "safety" of empirical evidence is an illusion at worst, and only a reasonably stable foundation at best. Empiricism cannot encompass the entirely of reality.

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Originally Posted by Lustandwine

a book writen by 100s of authors translated though aramaic to greek to latin to engish and german then to hundreds of other languages over centurys canot be used by a logical person as a fair representation of the facts, and as such should be used as a fable to explain the world.

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Have you done your research, or is this hearsay? Your comment suggests you are passing along rumors. The integrity of the Bible is only questioned by those with clear agendas of anti-scriptural bias. Many reputable scholars have examined the texts and verified their impressive levels of textual integrity and reliability. The only fable being seriously absorbed these days is the entertaining tale that we came from pond scum that mutated eventually into a monkey, and SOMEHOW humans eventually developed. That's good science fiction, you betcha.

Good Day Adu,

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Originally Posted by Adudaewen

Blaming God is a pretty understandable human reaction to the horrors and tragedy of the world..

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I don't even know if a god exists, so it would be pretty silly of me to blame her/him/it.

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Originally Posted by Adudaewen

However, hate and fear, pain and suffering, all of these things are direct byproducts of sin. ..

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Sin, only exists if you believe in it. And, to believe in it you need to believe that a universal creator exists who defines it. I'm uncertain. I still would like to believe though, that if I do someday find my God, that it would have enough class not to create satan/sin, etc, just to have a reason to judge its creation--all the while causing untold pain and destruction. It just seems silly to me. But again, I'm just a 50 year old goober that doesn't have a clue most of the time...so who knows?

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Originally Posted by Adudaewen

Sure, in theory, it would be great to just go out and drink and drug and have sex whenever the desire strikes us, and eat ourselves stupid, kill whoever annoys us and take whatever we want whether it belongs to someone else or not, but that doesn't really sound like a world I want to live in. .

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I have a problem with this Adu. You imply that folks that don't believe, or are uncertain, are somehow less moral and more apt to do things like abuse drugs and are having sex all over the sidewalks. I think you are wrong. From my subjective observations, anti-social behaviour is pretty much spread evenly throught all beliefs, cultures, races, etc. Just because I'm uncertain about what's going on in the universe does NOT mean that I'm less moral than those who are.

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Originally Posted by Wintermute

I have a problem with this Adu. You imply that folks that don't believe, or are uncertain, are somehow less moral and more apt to do things like abuse drugs and are having sex all over the sidewalks. I think you are wrong. From my subjective observations, anti-social behaviour is pretty much spread evenly throught all beliefs, cultures, races, etc. Just because I'm uncertain about what's going on in the universe does NOT mean that I'm less moral than those who are.

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That certainly wasn't my meaning, I have know a lot of non-believers who are the absolute salt of the Earth. I have also known a lot of people who profess to be Christian, and commit the most horrible acts. It was merely an example, a "for instance", if you will to demonstrate my point.

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Originally Posted by Adudaewen

That certainly wasn't my meaning, I have know a lot of non-believers who are the absolute salt of the Earth. I have also known a lot of people who profess to be Christian, and commit the most horrible acts. It was merely an example, a "for instance", if you will to demonstrate my point.

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Hi Adu,

I figured it was. Like I've said you are extremely fair and open minded in your posts.

I do think, however, that many folks feel this way--that if you don't accept that Christ died for your sins then you are almost certainly an immoral, drug using sexual deviant that will surely burn in hell for eternity. And that bothers me... Sometimes I get a little touchy about it, sorry. :)

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Originally Posted by Stanislaw

perhaps evolution was a tool, and the Bibal does not really contradict the evolutionist theory...[/SIZE]

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the bible DOES contradict evolution, because man came from DUST and not some ape. plain and simple.

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Originally Posted by smartblonde2010

the bible DOES contradict evolution, because man came from DUST and not some ape. plain and simple.

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Not really. Star dust is only the beginning...we didn't magically transform from dust into a human.

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Originally Posted by hyperborean

Not really. Star dust is only the beginning...we didn't magically transform from dust into a human.

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Right: according to evolution, we "magically" transformed from single cells through numerous random alterations/transmutations into humans. Thank goodness all the random factors that needed to be in place were in place! What were the odds of that?

This is such an interesting thread, but so long! Of course it's really just going to go round and round...

Anyway, I recently had a debate of sorts with a Christian, and according to him, it doesn't matter whether you are good or bad, those who don't accept that Jesus suffered for our (as in mankind) sake and therefore all our sins are forgiven, go to hell. Of course, if I were to believe in a God (and I think the guy thinks he has a chance of converting me - funny that, as the more he talked, the more irritating/amusing I found him) it certainly wouldn't be his one, but I was wondering if this is what the bible really says somewhere?

I also did a 'random act of kindness' (which wasn't really that, but that's what he called it) and seemed to be amazed that someone who didn't have his knowledge of the bible could do something like that... He said he wouldn't have thought of doing it, but if he had, it might have been as part of a plan or something (not his words specifically)... Just to clarify, I don't do good things (when I do them) in the hope of some afterlife reward, but (from the conversation I had with him) I was wondering what people thought on whether to do a good deed out of fear, or some sort of feeling of duty, or that with a manipulative idea behind it, is better than not doing the deed?

I am undecided as to whether a God actually exists but am open to the idea (seeing as there is no proof either way) although I still think that even if I knew everything there was to know about all the religions, faith is more a feeling you have inside, and not an intellectual subject that you can logically prove.

As for evolution - I know that a theory is only correct as long as there is no substantial evidence/ thoery to contradict it, but I think the evidence we have is pretty solid.

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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin

Right: according to evolution, we "magically" transformed from single cells through numerous random alterations/transmutations into humans. Thank goodness all the random factors that needed to be in place were in place! What were the odds of that?

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Hi Red,

Well, if they hadn't fallen into place, we wouldn't be discussing it would we?

I wonder how many worlds in this amazingly huge universe have not beaten the odds and have not evolved intelligent beings?

Just curious--if we do eventually discover intelligent life extraterrestrially, how will this effect your beliefs? And I know, I'm just asking for speculation on your part. Do you think they'd have the same spiritual component we humans do?

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Originally Posted by aydin

This is such an interesting thread, but so long! Of course it's really just going to go round and round...

Anyway, I recently had a debate of sorts with a Christian, and according to him, it doesn't matter whether you are good or bad, those who don't accept that Jesus suffered for our (as in mankind) sake and therefore all our sins are forgiven, go to hell. Of course, if I were to believe in a God (and I think the guy thinks he has a chance of converting me - funny that, as the more he talked, the more irritating/amusing I found him) it certainly wouldn't be his one, but I was wondering if this is what the bible really says somewhere?

I also did a 'random act of kindness' (which wasn't really that, but that's what he called it) and seemed to be amazed that someone who didn't have his knowledge of the bible could do something like that... He said he wouldn't have thought of doing it, but if he had, it might have been as part of a plan or something (not his words specifically)... Just to clarify, I don't do good things (when I do them) in the hope of some afterlife reward, but (from the conversation I had with him) I was wondering what people thought on whether to do a good deed out of fear, or some sort of feeling of duty, or that with a manipulative idea behind it, is better than not doing the deed?

I am undecided as to whether a God actually exists but am open to the idea (seeing as there is no proof either way) although I still think that even if I knew everything there was to know about all the religions, faith is more a feeling you have inside, and not an intellectual subject that you can logically prove.

As for evolution - I know that a theory is only correct as long as there is no substantial evidence/ thoery to contradict it, but I think the evidence we have is pretty solid.

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Hiya Aydin,

Well said! There is enough evidence to convince me that evolution is the path we're on. I still say, however, that a really classy god would have created evolution. And instead of thinking of it as an affront to their faith, folks should the thanking thier creator for such a wonderful gift. If you're out there, thank you.

As for the deal about accepting that Christ died for my sins--I don't even know what that means. It never has made a lick of sense to me. If you know you're gonna need to send your son down to get nailed to a cross in order to...fix things...why not just avoid that and do it right in the first place. It just doesn't seem real smart to me, and I think if a universally omnipotnet, omnicient creator exists, it would be MUCH smarter than we want to give it credit for. As always however, being agnostic, I could be wrong.

Thanks again for your post.

Hi Wintermute,

Haha! Liked your analysis! Or perhaps should just say, made me laugh, before I go offending people. Agree with what you say about any possible creator being much smarter, which is why what this guy was saying to me seemed so totally stupid. If, knowing we are somewhat logical beings with the capability to think and reason, then, surely he could hardly penalise us for not believing in him?

Also this idea that humans are superior and everything in the universe was made for our purpose seems a little far-fetched to me. So all plants, animals, and I suppose planets as well, are here merely as some sort of function for us? Not that I'm saying we are inferior, but what makes us so superior? I have heard that intellect and the possession of a soul is what gives us an advantage. But amongst us humans don't we generally consider those that 'think' they are superior to be a bit idiotic, and doesn't this only make us superior if we place intelligence above all else?

As for the soul bit, if we have a soul because we breathe and feel, then I don't see why animals shouldn't. And although I do believe we have souls, is there any proof? Is it not that we have become so accustomed to accept that we have one, but that it originated from literature and art and philosophy and so forth? I'm probably wrong, so would welcome any feedback here.

The other thing I have heard is that we must have a soul because we have a conscience. We have a conscience because we are able to think, but I don't think this must mean that we have a soul? Sorry, I think I'm babbling on mindlessly. Will stop.

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Originally Posted by Wintermute

Hi Adu,

I figured it was. Like I've said you are extremely fair and open minded in your posts.

I do think, however, that many folks feel this way--that if you don't accept that Christ died for your sins then you are almost certainly an immoral, drug using sexual deviant that will surely burn in hell for eternity. And that bothers me... Sometimes I get a little touchy about it, sorry. :)

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Thanx Wintermute, I hope that I can always be fair. Courtesy and open mindedness are two things I really strive for ;)

I totally agree with you, and you should get touchy about it. There are few things in this world that get me hot under the collar like "christians" who think they are better than everyone else. Drives me nuts! Especially when everything in our belief structure preaches against that! So I'm totally with you there. ;)

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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin

Thank goodness all the random factors that needed to be in place were in place! What were the odds of that?

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Quick point.The odds of the random factors being in place is unimportant as to the mutation originally taking place. There is still the same chance of the mutation taking place, these mutations were carried through and passed on to future generations because they were useful adaptations for the environmental conditions. There were also likely mutations which were not useful, these organisms died off and those mutations were not passed on.

An example:

Sickle cell anaemia is a genetic condition, which in the western world is not a useful adaptation and is as a result less prevalent in the western world. However, there have been studies which have shown people who suffer from sickle cell anaemia are less susceptible to malaria - interestingly it is quite prevalent in Northern Africa

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Originally Posted by Wintermute

Hi Red,

Well, if they hadn't fallen into place, we wouldn't be discussing it would we?

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Well, the other option is that God created us - and that's why we're here discussing it. :)

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Originally Posted by Wintermute

I wonder how many worlds in this amazingly huge universe have not beaten the odds and have not evolved intelligent beings?

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The odds are so against life spontaneously occurring out of nothing that even our presence here points to a miracle - whether you call it God or not - and science doesn't like "miracles."

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Originally Posted by Wintermute

Just curious--if we do eventually discover intelligent life extraterrestrially, how will this effect your beliefs? And I know, I'm just asking for speculation on your part. Do you think they'd have the same spiritual component we humans do?

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I think it absurd to believe that God - a Being of creative ability and a love of relationship - only created us and that's it. We're different because we were created "in God's image" but I think there's life out there (caveat: they don't come here though). We're just the only world that "fell." My beliefs wouldn't be shaken a bit. To believe that we're "it" in the vastness of the universe is too egocentric for me.