Evolution vs. Creation

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Originally Posted by blp

And what changed your mind?

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One day I began Tai Chi and meditation which brought me out of my depression. I was meditating one night and suddenly felt the strongest warm energy around and it made me realized I stopped asking for proof of existence of a higher being. A light formed in the room so bright it felt like morning only it was about ten p.m. I felt that must be a higher being. May sound crazy or impossible but it feels so true to me. I do not ask anyone to believe me or not that is up to them.

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Originally Posted by Loki

Not at all. Me being an atheist was never meant to be any secret. :)

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Good, and it sounds like that being an atheist makes you happy which is a good thing. Most people sure do not like atheist's and to me if you are happy being a atheist then so what. Not many of us are truly happy with who we are and I for am finally happy with whom I am today. :)

That's really interesting.

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Originally Posted by Ancestor

One day I began Tai Chi and meditation which brought me out of my depression. I was meditating one night and suddenly felt the strongest warm energy around and it made me realized I stopped asking for proof of existence of a higher being. A light formed in the room so bright it felt like morning only it was about ten p.m. I felt that must be a higher being. May sound crazy or impossible but it feels so true to me. I do not ask anyone to believe me or not that is up to them.

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Not to offend you or contest what you experienced, but why according to you must it have been a higher being? Could it not have come from within yourself?

It's a long time since I've meditated. I always found it difficult.

Most of what I read about meditation indicated that whenever visions and revelations occur, they are simply products of one's own mind and ways of distracting oneself from the meditation and should, as much as possible, be ignored so the meditation can continue.

Sorry if this is getting off topic.

No offense taken and I can understand the question but it may be a bit hard for me to explain. I am fully aware it could have come from within me and in fact had several visions before this. This time was extremely different I actually felt it from without of my body not within. Also was not distracted by it but it quieted my mind like I have never been able to do on my own since. If felt beyond my own capabilities and I am aware it vey well may be within my capabilities but not this experience. I am able to touch a person and can tell you how sick they truly are. My empathic ability somehow allows me to determine a source of energy. It did not feel a like it was a part of me also the experience was so bright on my eyes that they felt like I had been staring into the sun for several minutes. Sorry about not being able to explain this properly to you.

I'm not paricular to any religion here and even not trying to mention any...what i'm trying to imply is to whatever faith(in general) we are created to by "The Creator"(onto which different religions are basing their faith.Evolution justifies our existence as product of anything else but that still is vague because of it's complexity and and thus bringing a good support to the fact that we are created and not evolved.Not being particular to whose the God or Gods.Thank you.

Actually, evolution has nothing to do with our existence as far as 'creation' goes. The origin of life is more of a big bang+inhabitable planet concept, which is based around plate tectonics, the age of the earth, and more chemistry with a dash of physics than anything else. The biology of evolution has to do with life after it was created, not how it got there in the first place. It's a small distinction, but one that has to be made so that the discussion doesn't hit a misconception that evolution somehow explains away the need for a creator.

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Originally Posted by Ancestor

Good, and it sounds like that being an atheist makes you happy which is a good thing. Most people sure do not like atheist's and to me if you are happy being a atheist then so what.

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I was not aware that people don't like atheists, but I will be careful not to say that in the future :p. No, but seriously, it's very difficult for me to understand. Christianity and, I believe, every other religion, cites love and tells us to help others. But so often members of different beliefs dislike one another and feel hot feelings towards each other. I think being an atheist is a pretty neutral state - one doesn't believe in this god or that god. It must be something in human nature that makes us judge those who are different from ourselves.

<Christianity and, I believe, every other religion, cites love and tells us to help others.>

Many religions do, and some of their advocates would have us believe that religion is founded on principles and doctrines of love. But of course that's complete nonsense. Most scriptures that I have seen, have as many, if not more, words of vengeance, violence and vitriol than words of love. In fact, it surprises me how much hatred there is in religious scripture. In fact, were you to calculate the number of words that specifically refer to love in most world scriptures, it would be a small fraction of the total written output.

What happens is that some believers pick and choose what they want from these writings, and give undue emphasis to the small amount of stuff on love and tolerance, whilst carefully sweeping all the other vast amounts of offensive rubbish under the carpet, when they are promoting their beliefs.

On the other hand, some believers thrive on the fears of others. Every day I walk past a vicar who thinks it is his duty to broadcast the Bible to the busy commuters filing out of Victoria station. His lectures are filled with proclamations of the future suffering of those that reject his message; they are filled with condemnations of his audience, whom he calls sinners. His goal is to fill people with enough guilty feelings about themselves, that they will heed his message, and become one of the in-group, the elite that he feels he belongs to.

Now, were someone to stand where he does, spouting out rubbish from some trashy pulp novel and threatening everyone with future horrors and calamities, no doubt they would be carted away to somewhere that would attempt to cure him, or at least make him less of a social outcast.

<I think being an atheist is a pretty neutral state>

I disagree. Neutrality is for agnostics. Us atheists are unequivocally against all religion.

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Originally Posted by atiguhya padma

<I think being an atheist is a pretty neutral state>

I disagree. Neutrality is for agnostics. Us atheists are unequivocally against all religion.

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i could only agree with that.

I can only disagree with that.

Atheists can have religions, and do, (see LaVeyian Satanists, Universalists, Brights, some Buddhists, etc) and are not against it. Atheism is simply a lack of belief in gods. To be an atheist you have no belief in gods and whether or not you want a religion is a personal preference. To be an agnostic you have no knowledge that said gods exist or do not, so you potentially don't believe in any gods, also. I don't believe people can just remain completely neutral, no matter how undecided they are, so I happen to find everyone as either an atheist or theist depending on their gnostic stance. Then again, I classify everyone as an agnostic because no one knows for certain if there are any gods out there.

Although back on the original thought lineup: We're all born atheists and we learn to accept a god and/or religion, as far as anyone can tell. Seeing as no one can come out of the womb knowing what a god is, or for that matter, even care at that age. They're technically agnostics, but since they don't know of gods they, by default, also cannot believe in them, making them atheist in nature. (Christians might want to look at that fact as "original sin" because we all start off needing a god to be saved, or something)

Thought I'd add that into the fray, since I tend to hold pretty steady to this interpretation of definition.

Around where I used to live people disliked Atheists, Spiritualists, and anyone who did not believe in their religion stating we were going to hell and for my faith Spiritualism I was accused of worshiping the Devil. In truth I feel most people do not want to be opened about other faiths or learn about them. A woman came up to one day on the street and asked me about my faith. I tried to explain it to her but she believed my soul was going to hell no matter what I said. She would not listen to me and told me I should be in a church based faith. I do not go to a church because most church do harp on going to hell and sinning which is not positive in my opinion.

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I disagree. Neutrality is for agnostics. Us atheists are unequivocally against all religion.

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We should not judge another for any reason and I disagree that all atheists from any country is against religion granted some are but Loki did not give me that impression.

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Quote from Loki: No, but seriously, it's very difficult for me to understand. Christianity and, I believe, every other religion, cites love and tells us to help others. But so often members of different beliefs dislike one another and feel hot feelings towards each other. I think being an atheist is a pretty neutral state - one doesn't believe in this god or that god. It must be something in human nature that makes us judge those who are different from ourselves.

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Dyrwen,

I suppose what you are saying depends on the definition of religion. According to the online Cambridge Dictionary, religion is: the belief in and worship of a god or gods, or any such system of belief and worship.

I don't dispute that there are belief systems that have no truck with monotheism or polytheism. But I am not at all sure that these belief systems should be called religions.

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Originally Posted by atiguhya padma

Dyrwen,

I suppose what you are saying depends on the definition of religion. According to the online Cambridge Dictionary, religion is: the belief in and worship of a god or gods, or any such system of belief and worship.

I don't dispute that there are belief systems that have no truck with monotheism or polytheism. But I am not at all sure that these belief systems should be called religions.

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I understand the definition problems, though I try to hold true to a root meaning of the word more so than the popular accepted definition. Religious tolerance.org gives a good line up of ideas about it. Since the word is based off religo, meaning good faith or ritual. The main thing I see of religions of all types is worship, ritual, and devotion to it no matter what. There are principles to be followed and those that join a religion follow them as a dogma.

One could say I worship my computer, (and back when I was a Satanist with a baphomet painted above it on the wall, it would be more accurate than anyone can define, heh) but I obviously don't follow any principles outside of "Keep it safe" and "Use it often". There are plenty of religions out there that involve no gods, or really even any worship, but many of them do have a ritual and principles they wish to follow, and I tend to believe that means they are religions.

The idea that a religion has something to do with believing in god is rooted in Christianity writing our dictionaries and creating the word off its latin roots into a different idea, rather than just following what it ought to mean. By doing so they manage to say everyone who isn't religious doesn't believe in god, but I know plenty of religious people who don't believe in god, but are still quite proud of their religious beliefs.

I think the idea here is not to prove the other side wrong, but to discuss the views.... so take it easy. :D

Nobody's more calm about this than I Adel, but I analyze every post for a counter viewpoint, so that this learning experience keeps on going. :)

What is really discouraging are those thousands of fanatic people (included the Jews) crawling around in Köln singing hypnotic lullabies.

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Originally Posted by Maxos

What is really discouraging are those thousands of fanatic people (included the Jews) crawling around in Köln singing hypnotic lullabies.

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I hope this does not offend you or anything but may I ask what that has to do with Evolution vs Creation? Could be please explain futher?

I've rarely seen Maxos on topic, but if he manages to show how this is on topic, he'll have my attention for once, heh.

(seems like this might have been a good reply in the "hearing voices of god" thread, maybe, but not here of all places)

I have made a mistake, the post to which I was replying was before.

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Originally Posted by Maxos

I have made a mistake, the post to which I was replying was before.

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That is okay I was curious and thought I had missed that topic on this forum. I do hope that I was not rude towards you.

I want to ask some questions plz. Why the animals are not like us? Why we are the only creatures that passed through evolution (if it exists)? And why this process has stoped since a long time ago?

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Originally Posted by adilyoussef

I want to ask some questions plz. Why the animals are not like us? Why we are the only creatures that passed through evolution (if it exists)? And why this process has stoped since a long time ago?

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Good question there adilyoussef. I believe that animals do evolve like us because in order to survive us humans who keep taking over their homes they have to choice but to adapt and evolve. But some people do not think animals should have any rights and are just for food. I do not feel that way anything that has a pulse and breaths is alive like I am and should be respected. Not sure it has stopped maybe slowed or we just do not see it going on now. I wish I could give a better answer but I cannot, sorry.

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Originally Posted by adilyoussef

I want to ask some questions plz. Why the animals are not like us? Why we are the only creatures that passed through evolution (if it exists)? And why this process has stoped since a long time ago?

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Animals are very much like us. Many of them feel emotions, show goals and interests in varying things, and are fairly intelligent. All creatures have passed through evolution, we are no different. It hasn't stopped either, we're always evolving. It just takes hundreds of thousands of years to see any significant difference at times, but because we've only had (what we call at least) civilization over the past 8,000 years we tend to base everything off of that.

This may sound a tad off it, but this is my sincere belief. I believe in both creationism and evolution, just not any of the theories out there now. I believe God created the Earth and every living thing. But I do not belive that the animals or even mankind is still the same as when God formed them from the dust of the Earth. Too much has gone on, and they have had to adapt. Thus they have changed over the years, or evolved, if you choose to use that word. But not ape to man. Sorry, I don't buy that at all. When God made man "in His image" he made a "spirit" for that is what God is. Read the Bible. In the next chapter, he gives that spirit a body, formed out of the dust of the Earth. "Male and female created He them, and called their name Adam in the day of their creation." Now he seperates the spirits, giving Eve her own body. It's all there. READ. But time writes its lines on every face. Things change. They evolve. Sermon over. Dragon out.

I believe the passion over the subject is a greater wonder than the subject itself and promise not to be offended by anyone who believes an ancient colony of apes were their link to existence or by those that think God made two people out of dirt.Untill an evolutionist has a spiritual epiphany they will choose the idea their tail fell off,they stood up.and became genius.For those I would recommend,G.K. Chesterton,"The Everlasting Man".and C.S. Lewis."The Abolition of Man." For those that think a Supreme being created two people from dirt I would recommend the same two books.

That's an odd way to remain neutral Okmit, but I can respect you at least trying to add in new book knowledge to the arena.

I apologize for not being clearer on my personal stance.I am a right wing conservative Republican by political labeling,and practice the Byzantine (Eastern Rite) Catholic Christian dogma.A creationist,pro-lifer,and anything but neutral on any subject.
I do hope you read the books...Okmit

Hey, neat, you're like my polar opposite. HI! heh, was just noticing you managed to give a good suggestion to each side without stating any side, so it appeared pretty neutral. I plan on picking up the Lewis book soon, as I've heard good things on occasion about em.

Though I might add to your original post: We didn't "lose" our tails. They slowly went away, sure, but we still have tailbones and people are still born with tails (sourced). Also, as it has been mentioned earlier, we didn't evolve specifically from some "ancient colony of apes" but a common ancestor of the apes and monkeys (as well as homo sapiens; 3 branched off it). And considering we share 98% of our DNA with chimps, and they create art, have plenty of emotions, tight nit communities, etc, I wouldn't go saying we grew up to be geniuses by any stretch of the word. Intelligence is different for every species, but we certainly aren't any smarter. Of course, we'd like to think so..

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Originally Posted by Pendragon

Read the Bible.

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How is reading the Bible going to convince someone who doesn't think the Bible is true? There's no argument there, just a series of statements made without any evidentiary proofs.

Lewis is good,but I think you would find Chesterton's logic in the "Everlasting Man"(particularly on this subject) more entertaining.

Do you really believe chimps create art?

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Originally Posted by okmit

Do you really believe chimps create art?

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Not only chimps, but cats.
http://www.tenspeedpress.com/catalog...m.php3?id=1020

I'd better get some art lessons, before people accuse me of not being human!

I see its time too quit pussy footing around with the idea that monkey-ing in paint is a CREATIVE expression of art.I certainly wouldnt want too be held responsible for causing any of our artistically challenged humans too feel dehumanized!

Anyone ever hear an Ape play a trumpet?OK thats tuff...how about a Kazoo?

Considering they don't have the fingers to properly pull off most musicianship, I doubt we'd see them playing those. I seem to recall them being able to learn how to speak english though, which allows them to identify their needs quite easily, and considering I can't speak sign language and quite a few apes of all types can now, I'd call that pretty decent intelligence. Still, we've had cat, elephant, and ape art recorded and they all look different, depending on their color usage. If the animal was just an idiot they'd shove the stick up their rear and run around spraying paint over their masters, which oddly enough I've come close to seeing from some toddlers. Watch videos of these animals painting if you want to see contemplative thought, because it's certainly there.

In any case, all this discussion is, is "Are we better than animals?" Which as we've established early on, the Judeo-Christian faith says yes because God holds humanity in a higher regard by giving them souls, talking to them, etc. Meanwhile, I would say we're no different. A beaver makes a home, raises a family, develops adaptations to fend off predators, passes his skill onto his children, who proceed to build another home when he passes on and they move out. I buy a home, lock my door, teach people what I know, and am no better than some giant rodent who can even swim and survive longer than I can in the wilderness, underwater, or the cold.

CoCo sure was a wiz!But if you put your mind to it I'm sure you too could conquer the art of mimmicking.As for YOU being no better than a giant rodent,well I'll leave that assesment to you.But I am sure that you would fare much better in the beavers cold,wet,wilderness than the beaver would in your warm,dry,city enviroment!

Oh yes,and did I see you write...spraying paint over "their MASTER?"

Seeing as most of their art isn't anything outside of abstract (to us anyway) and their color usage is mainly based off of their memories and/or emotions at the time, it's fairly easy to tell they aren't just mimicking, or else they'd produce the same works of art all the time, rather than different ones.

The beaver and I are just two different creatures, they have an extra eyelid to see under water, extra flabs of fat to survive the cold winters and chilly waters. I live in Washington, so it isn't that dry here, nor is it really ever too warm, and when I look outside, there isn't much city either, but I suppose there is concrete about. Personally I've always respected other animal's adaptations because they become more "need based" rather than want, which end up just being useless for some of us. Sure I can type 80wpm, survive off ramen noodles for months on end, and deliver packages for my job in less than an hour, but these aren't exactly needed adaptations on my part. They're what we're used to though, so I guess they work.

Nice job picking out one word to better fit your ideas, though, really. I couldn't think up much else at 8am, but we'll say I meant "keeper" or "trainer" if that suits your fancy. I'm no zoologist, so I don't know their official term. They make sure the animal gets their food, like I do with my dogs, and since dogs' owners are usually referred to as owners and/or masters, it's the first thing that comes to mind. But who really thinks of their pets as something they own? They're just furry friends that we keep alive because they make us happy, but I suppose them relying on us in a city environment does make us fairly owner-like of them.

Master,keeper,trainer,lord is what we are because we have dominion over them.We feed them,breed em, work em, entertain ourselves,and eat em.I thank God for the dominion,for the thought of a creature of higher intellect,(or lower)passing me on a bun through a drive thru window to be devoured is just too scary!!!