does religion/God give people a voice?

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Originally Posted by SentimentalSlop

Yes, most Catholics do not believe in certain doctrines. That's not good. But the stuff I tell you is basic Christian beliefs. It's nothing surprising.

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They are *your* beliefs, stop claiming them for all Christians. The Catholics who do not believe in the doctrines you hold are also Catholics and also Christians, and no doubt many hold their doctrines to be "basic Christianity". What a Tower of Babel! And all because of unsound epistemology. There's no evidence for any of the Roman Catholic dogmas, that's why there's so much division in the Chrurch, and between all the churches.

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And I'm not saying atheism is communism. You guys have got to actually READ what I say instead of twisting it into whatever you want. What I said is that the most cruel, barbaric communist efforts have been dictated by radical atheistic movements.

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Atheism is simply not believing in God, how does that direct communist efforts? It's communist ideology that drives the killing fields, not atheism. How does atheism lead to the Stalinist drive to "kill all landowners", or "kill all followers of Trotsky"? Stalin believed in Newton's laws, does that mean barbaric communist efforts are directed by radical Newtonian movements? You are just making no sense at all.

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So what if Hitler was baptized a RC? The depraved man obviously did not follow Catholic doctrine or Christianity at all.

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The Germanic RC churches say that anyone baptised a catholic is a catholic forever, therefore Hitler is catholic, and therefore a Christian. This is simple logic. If you accept this simple logic, then you might say that not all RC are good. Personally I'd prefer not to be in any club that tries to retain such nasty members.

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My sister was baptized a RC, but she is not a RC. She rejects Christianity and is a self-proclaimed atheist.

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I'm talking about the German/Austrian Roman Catholic church, I'm not sure what your branch is like. If it has the same rule then she can self-proclaim all she wants, but the church still has her, by its account. But you might want to check; heck, I'd be running down to the priest now, if I were you, just to check. If she is still a Roman Catholic she might have a better chance of sneaking into heaven, and wouldn't that make you really happy?

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Originally Posted by cacian

you know what Volya I am tempted to say god is gay himself. how do we know he is not? he is man isn't he right?

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Read Hosea 11:9, and get back to us on that one.

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Originally Posted by mal4mac

The Germanic RC churches say that anyone baptised a catholic is a catholic forever

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...and while all Catholics are subject to excommunication, whether it's latæ sententiæ or ferendæ sententiæ, even (prior to 1983 anyway) the vitandus excommunicant remained "a Catholic." Catholicism has no direct correlation to חרם.

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Originally Posted by SentimentalSlop

Christians are against gay marriage and sex because we believe that marriage is about procreation (not just that obviously, but that is the common denominator), and men and men or women and women simply do not have the means to reproduce. And in order for one to have sex, they ought to be married. That is why both are forbidden. It is not that we should be against homosexuals and not love them as human beings, but we encourage chastity among them. There are many gay Christians out there who live chaste lives and encourage chastity.

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Who are you to say how people should use their sexual impulses? If two guys go to bed together that doesn't harm you, or anyone else, in any way. And it isn't as if there's a lack of people in the world! There are plenty of breeders out there.

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Originally Posted by mal4mac

Nothing wrong with being presumptuous in a forum, as you can be corrected in the next post. But anti-atheists just cannot seem to see that atheism isn't communism, and continue to presume that if you are atheist you are some kind of Stalinist. This "communism isn't atheism" point has been made so many times, and the anti-atheists just don't seem to get it! They equate communism with atheism and pretend they are attacking atheism when they are really attacking communism. It's pure sophistry, intellectual deceit of the most brazen kind.

By the way, Dawkins just made the point on twitter that Hitler was a Roman catholic. If you were baptised as Roman catholic in Germany/Austria then you were a Roman catholic forever, according to the Roman catholic church. Stalin spent his adolescence in training to be a priest. The heavy religious influence on these two totalitarians must have had some kind of formative influence!

P.S. Dawkins is on a book tour to sell the first volume of his autobiography at the moment and is obviously finding a lot of time to twitter, and is really on form. This is a great chance for anyone in the States to see him, hear him on local radio, or even have dinner with him! "Only 4 tickets left (of 20) for Michael Shermer's dinner for RDFRS. http://conta.cc/16lxqKv 3rd dinner selling out as fast as the other 2." Also, unlike with the recent Pope's tour of the UK, his tour is not paid for out of your taxes.

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True. But only a few of them do that. The problem really is that atheism is close to dialectical materialism, and from there communism is an obviously potential conclusion. One insight into this was provided by Nietzsche when he said that Roman Catholic atheism was a-priori fact and that the ultimate degeneration was communism. Not a thing to do with the Nazi's position of idiotic anticommunism, the VRIL powder and all that stuff.

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Originally Posted by Eman Resu

Read Hosea 11:9, and get back to us on that one.

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king James Bible
''I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city''

oh my. what is god then. Jesus was a man.

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Originally Posted by mal4mac

Who are you to say how people should use their sexual impulses? If two guys go to bed together that doesn't harm you, or anyone else, in any way. And it isn't as if there's a lack of people in the world! There are plenty of breeders out there.

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LOL too right ;)

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Originally Posted by cafolini

... The problem really is that atheism is close to dialectical materialism, and from there communism is an obviously potential conclusion.

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Atheism can be "close to" any political stance. And, in practice, you find that it is. There are many famous figures who weren't in any way communist, but were atheists, many (like David Hume) born before Hegel and Marx. Bertrand Russell was a staunch opponent of communism. Just browse wikipedia, you'll find hundreds of examples of people who are, or were, atheist-but-not-in-any-way-communist.

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Originally Posted by mal4mac

They are *your* beliefs, stop claiming them for all Christians. The Catholics who do not believe in the doctrines you hold are also Catholics and also Christians, and no doubt many hold their doctrines to be "basic Christianity". What a Tower of Babel! And all because of unsound epistemology. There's no evidence for any of the Roman Catholic dogmas, that's why there's so much division in the Chrurch, and between all the churches.



Atheism is simply not believing in God, how does that direct communist efforts? It's communist ideology that drives the killing fields, not atheism. How does atheism lead to the Stalinist drive to "kill all landowners", or "kill all followers of Trotsky"? Stalin believed in Newton's laws, does that mean barbaric communist efforts are directed by radical Newtonian movements? You are just making no sense at all.



The Germanic RC churches say that anyone baptised a catholic is a catholic forever, therefore Hitler is catholic, and therefore a Christian. This is simple logic. If you accept this simple logic, then you might say that not all RC are good. Personally I'd prefer not to be in any club that tries to retain such nasty members.



I'm talking about the German/Austrian Roman Catholic church, I'm not sure what your branch is like. If it has the same rule then she can self-proclaim all she wants, but the church still has her, by its account. But you might want to check; heck, I'd be running down to the priest now, if I were you, just to check. If she is still a Roman Catholic she might have a better chance of sneaking into heaven, and wouldn't that make you really happy?

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1) According to the RC, anyone who is Catholic but rejects Catholic doctrine is a heretic. Obviously, Hitler was one. He rejected Catholic doctrine and was a monster. Just because he was a Catholic nominally means nothing. He was not a Catholic in his heart.

2) Why do you keep insisting on putting words in my mouth? When did I ever say all atheists were communists? They're clearly not. All I said was that the most barbaric genocides in the history of the world have been implemented by atheistic communist regimes. Lots of atheists hate communism, I get that.

3) I'd love for my sister to go to heaven. She's a kind and loving woman with a big heart, but she has to accept God first.

4) No one's sneaking into people's bedrooms to see if they're having gay sex or not, but I believe homosexual marriage is invalid and that homosexual relations are sinful, therefore I cannot aid in the sin of others. It is against my conscience.

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Originally Posted by cacian

king James Bible
''I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city''

oh my. what is god then. Jesus was a man.

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That is God the Father speaking in the OT. God the Father is not a man, but Christ is both God and man at the same time.

Volya asks you valid questions. Why not show him Christian respect and address them Sentimental.

Btw Jesus told the people in his sermon on the mount that the old laws would not be changed. So the OT is not obsolete at all and all Christians are therefore hypocrites for not following the word of God.

This is exactly my point about cherry picking. NEWSFLASH: if the OT no longer applies, why the hell do you folk keep quoting the parts that suit you from it????

But you won't kill a homosexual....

I shall ask for the third time... (In nice big letters so you don't miss it!)

Why was it ever okay to go around killing gays?

lol. The question can't be answered. After the ten commandments, the other 603 contradict each other so much, it's impossible for any Christian to live by the laws.

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Originally Posted by SentimentalSlop

1) According to the RC, anyone who is Catholic but rejects Catholic doctrine is a heretic. Obviously, Hitler was one. He rejected Catholic doctrine and was a monster. Just because he was a Catholic nominally means nothing. He was not a Catholic in his heart.

2) Why do you keep insisting on putting words in my mouth? When did I ever say all atheists were communists? They're clearly not. All I said was that the most barbaric genocides in the history of the world have been implemented by atheistic communist regimes. Lots of atheists hate communism, I get that.

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again that is not true. atrocities are equally menacing in the name of religion. people were/are executed daily for having a different. it is all over history.

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3) I'd love for my sister to go to heaven. She's a kind and loving woman with a big heart, but she has to accept God first.

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I have to disagree. no need for god to go to heaven or whatever. you cannot prove it and that is the case.
heaven is not on condition it is a myth in the same that hell is. heaven and hell are the parameters for religion to mean something. take them out of the equation and religion is nothing. in otherwise religion needs to grow a pair.

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4) No one's sneaking into people's bedrooms to see if they're having gay sex or not, but I believe homosexual marriage is invalid and that homosexual relations are sinful, therefore I cannot aid in the sin of others. It is against my conscience.

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it is against your conscious and that is fair enough but remember it is not against theirs and that is all that matters. why it is against your conscious I do not understand it. why should you feel anything towards gay people when you are not involved with it. it is a bit like saying I do not eat pork because it is against my conscious. it could not be you have never had it. one cannot assume something they have not experienced it. sex and sexuality has nothing to do with religion and yet we throw it at it as if a football needing to score a point.

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That is God the Father speaking in the OT. God the Father is not a man, but Christ is both God and man at the same time.

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what?
half man and half god? what is the meaning of that? what is god? you need to explain by giving a clear definition otherwise I can only say he is a man/women going with what Jesus was.

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2) Why do you keep insisting on putting words in my mouth? When did I ever say all atheists were communists? They're clearly not. All I said was that the most barbaric genocides in the history of the world have been implemented by atheistic communist regimes. Lots of atheists hate communism, I get that.

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You're the one always combining the two words atheism and communism! Pure sophistry.

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4) No one's sneaking into people's bedrooms to see if they're having gay sex or not, but I believe homosexual marriage is invalid and that homosexual relations are sinful, therefore I cannot aid in the sin of others. It is against my conscience.

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All this bigotry leads to situations like gay teenage boys being murdered in Catholic Brasil, and baseball bats being used to beat gay teenage girls in Russian Orthodox Russia. You may say you wouldn't be wielding a baseball bat, but its "moderates" like you that generate an atmosphere in which such things can happen. These examples come from "Out there", Stephen's Fry's excellent recent series on gay oppression around the world (still available on BBC iPlayer.) Taster here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnBBqYFGKB8

Interesting that all this violent, murderous, bigotry takes place in very Christian or Islamic countries. Stephen Fry is a great atheist, here he dismantles the Roman Catholic Church:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6sz8D411kE

What about easy living Bishops? Interesting item on BBC Radio 4 this morning about the "Bishop of Bling", who spent £300 000 just on walk in wardrobes, and £40 million on other luxuries:

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...-29659398.html

Do you give money to these characters? How did he get so much money? The Germans have to pay taxes to support the religion they put on census forms. Blimey! I can see why "Father Ted" didn't have many series, he just couldn't compete with the satire generated by the church itself.