All about Nietzsche

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Originally Posted by hyperborean

Question: Why do you think his views are misguided? Do you think bringing mankind to next level of consciousness is misguided?.

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That's a matter of opinion (see alert below).

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Originally Posted by hyperborean

Ding, Ding, Ding! Opinion alert, opinion alert.:D .

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Very good. Much of what goes on in these threads is opinion - including what you claim as truth.

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Originally Posted by hyperborean

Mistakes? Verify these so called "mistakes".

You enjoy nitpicking the flaws of other philosophies yet you forget that your own philosophy is flawed as well....or maybe you just haven't admitted it yet.

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Nietzsche's worship of power is a flat-out mistake. The possession of power has led very few people to true and lasting happiness. No, I'm not nit-picking - I'm voicing a disagreement - that sort of thing happens here. Go check out some of the things said on the atheism and evolution threads. Don't take it so personally - I'm sure if Nietzsche were here he wouldn't be sweating my objections one bit.

I dont like people who out and out say's its wrong or right; It is the sake of arguing, I know, but we know nothing.

I wish people who believed as you do, not be so righteous and sure footed with their philosophy. I know there are many truths in this life. Nietzsche is not among them, nor is Jesus. Though I accept them as being either correct or not. Not misguided, nor perfect. Just that they may hold merits of their own. As simple as that.

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Originally Posted by Asa Adams

I dont like people who out and out say's its wrong or right; It is the sake of arguing, I know, but we know nothing.

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You mean I'm not entitled to the opinion that Nietzsche is wrong and hyperborean is not entitled to his opinion that Jesus (or Christianity, or Plato) is wrong? Really? Opinions as to the "rightness" and "wrongness" of something are - wrong?

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Originally Posted by Asa Adams

I wish people who believed as you do, not be so righteous and sure footed with their philosophy. I know there are many truths in this life. Nietzsche is not among them, nor is Jesus. Though I accept them as being either correct or not. Not misguided, nor perfect. Just that they may hold merits of their own. As simple as that.

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Who's claiming the higher moral ground ("righteous") here? What's wrong with believing in my position? Don't all my opponents do the same?

Did you just tell me that Jesus (the primary "philosopher" I follow) is wrong? Did you just "out and out" say my "philosopher" is wrong? Are my italics properly communicating the irony I'm pointing at? I'm not trying to goad you, but you committed the very act you are criticizing me for. Why?

The reason why I said "opinion alert" is because every time I criticize Christianity I'm shunned for scrutinizing "purity". You make it seem like your philosophy is all good and mine is completely wrong. If anything, I've promoted Jesus and his philosophy...I've criticized organized religion. You are probably one of the only Christians I know who won't admit the faults of organized religion.

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Originally Posted by hyperborean

The reason why I said "opinion alert" is because every time I criticize Christianity I'm shunned for scrutinizing "purity".

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Who's done this? I don't recall ever making this charge. You're free to criticize away - I don't post here because I think everybody will agree with me or my theological/philosophical position. It is generally the tone of many atheist/evolutionist posts that I take issue with.

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Originally Posted by hyperborean

You make it seem like your philosophy is all good and mine is completely wrong. If anything, I've promoted Jesus and his philosophy...I've criticized organized religion. You are probably one of the only Christians I know who won't admit the faults of organized religion.

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I have difficulty in criticizing the "philosophy" of a Divine Being capable of creating the universe. That doesn't mean that I don't sometimes struggle with what I've been told is right or required of me. Living the Christian life is not easy - it is very challenging, primarily because God asks us to do difficult things - things that often are at direct odds with human nature.

Second, I do not believe Nietzsche is a total wacko. I think he was a thoughtful and a smart man - but so was Freud (and I think much of what he thought is wrong too - though he [like Nietzsche] was capable of great insight); nonetheless, I am not required to whole-heartedly support men whose grand themes I disagree with. Philosophic positions based (even in part) on power over others is disagreeable and false to me - just as the Christian ideal of service to each other and self-denial is just plain silly to atheists (at least some of them).

Organized religion is full of problems - no doubt. I have never defended a particular church; I have been defending Christianity in its ideal incarnation - as the teachings of Jesus Christ as laid out by Him, Paul, and God in the OT. I think organized religion is in need of a serious overhaul, but that doesn't mean I don't think it has value. So, I guess your list of Christians unwilling to admit the "faults of organized religion" just went down by one - but a perusal of my posts will reveal that religion was never the subject of my defense.

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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin

I have difficulty in criticizing the "philosophy" of a Divine Being capable of creating the universe.

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Who said that modern Christianity is what "God" wanted? I'm not an atheist and I understand that true Christianity is great. However, man has warped the religion and the philosophy. Divine inspiration aside, the bible has been molded into what man wanted and not what God wanted. The Vatican and the church are completely corrupt.

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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin

Second, I do not believe Nietzsche is a total wacko. I think he was a thoughtful and a smart man - but so was Freud (and I think much of what he thought is wrong too - though he [like Nietzsche] was capable of great insight); nonetheless, I am not required to whole-heartedly support men whose grand themes I disagree with. Philosophic positions based (even in part) on power over others is disagreeable and false to me - just as the Christian ideal of service to each other and self-denial is just plain silly to atheists (at least some of them).

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Nicely put, but I wouldn't compare mr. psychoanalytic and Nietzsche. Freud is wrong because there is no proof of the unconscious.

Nietzsche, by the way, isn't all about "will to power". You also seem to have a misconception on what the will to power really is. My impression is that you interpret is as something "nazi like" (dictators who have read Nietzsche have all misinterpreted will to power).

Also, the ubermensch and eternal recurrence are two philosophical ideas you seem to forget about. I would think God would want us to strive for the "overman". I actually know a lot of Christians who agree with Nietzsche because of the overman ideology.

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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin

You mean I'm not entitled to the opinion that Nietzsche is wrong and hyperborean is not entitled to his opinion that Jesus (or Christianity, or Plato) is wrong? Really? Opinions as to the "rightness" and "wrongness" of something are - wrong?

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Did I say you weren't entitled? Don't put words where they do not belong, Redzeppelin. ;)

My key words were I didn't like

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Originally Posted by Asa Adams

Did I say you weren't entitled? Don't put words where they do not belong, Redzeppelin. ;)

My key words were I didn't like

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OK, fair enough. But I don't get the problem you seem to have with people who are confident in their position. Doubt and skepticism are fine, but if I'm doubtful and skeptical of everything, then what do I believe in? I'll paraphrase an old quotation: "Nothing contributes to peace of mind more than having no opinion at all." I don't know the author, but I like the idea.

I keep feeling that Nietzsche was suffering from a point where his thoughts were going beyond the limits offered by his language.

That led him into his rants, his 'lightning' so as to speak, and his more incoherent works.

N was frustrated because he didnt ahve language. But language is not the product of one man (not just vocabulary). It is the work of a society. If everybody is 'stupid', then the language cannot evolve to speak of the more abstract concepts. In which case people like N, who think abstractly, lack the entire infrastructure for self expression. Leading to madness.

Wittgenstein and Confucius both talked about how nothing can be spoken of where language does not exist.

[QUOTE=jon1jt;316973]let me try to articulate the problem of language according to nietzsche:
when you 'see' an image, what you're seeing actually is a metaphor of sense impressions, not the 'thing in itself.' so at this level human beings are therefore incapable of telling anything about the object's essence. now, consider the next layer: the word we attach to the image, which is also a metaphor of a sensory object. ...

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Originally Posted by hyperborean

Nietzsche, by the way, isn't all about "will to power". You also seem to have a misconception on what the will to power really is. My impression is that you interpret is as something "nazi like" (dictators who have read Nietzsche have all misinterpreted will to power).

Also, the ubermensch and eternal recurrence are two philosophical ideas you seem to forget about. I would think God would want us to strive for the "overman". I actually know a lot of Christians who agree with Nietzsche because of the overman ideology.

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anyone who still thinks nietzche is a nazi supporter need only take a look at one walter kaufman translation. kaufman says N is not a nazi. nazi's misread him. anyhoot,

the overman is nietzche's ideal of a man without any "will to power" controlling him, except his own (that is how the overman becomes the new stage of evolution: he follows no rules, no dogma--thereby he is free to evolve rather than degenerate). and, the eternal recurrance says there never was a creation, its always been. just check out the very last page of "will to power" and see for yourself.

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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin

OK, fair enough. But I don't get the problem you seem to have with people who are confident in their position. Doubt and skepticism are fine, but if I'm doubtful and skeptical of everything, then what do I believe in? I'll paraphrase an old quotation: "Nothing contributes to peace of mind more than having no opinion at all." I don't know the author, but I like the idea.

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i like the idea tambien. no opinion means no thought. no thought is very mystic, very eastern, very non-western.

I haven't seen zeppelin talk about the overman. Anytime Nietzsche is brought up we see Christians attack "will to power".

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Originally Posted by hyperborean

I haven't seen zeppelin talk about the overman. Anytime Nietzsche is brought up we see Christians attack "will to power".

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that shouldnt be suprising. he take shots at christianity the whole book. i mean he takes shots a dogma, bad translations of jesus. nietzche loved jesus. not like a god, but like an overman.

In my interpretation Nietzsche didnt so much attack the concept of God as he saw it as not neccesary in society anymore.

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Originally Posted by dramasnot6

In my interpretation Nietzsche didnt so much attack the concept of God as he saw it as not neccesary in society anymore.

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If God is nothing more than a "concept," then perhaps Nietzsche's right. But if God is not merely "concept' but actually a Divine Reality, then Nietzsche is wrong and the world needs Him now more than ever.